I agree with your take on the players; they are collective mouth-breathers. However, we do have to account for Trotz's impact on the Islanders; they gave up the most goals in the league the year before he got there, and the fewest in his first year.
- mohel

That team had talent though.

The Hawks have won zero playoff series since Toews and Kane started making $10.5 each. I know everyone has heard this stat before but it’s still true today that you can’t use 20-25% of your cap on two players and expect to win much. You could argue that McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, or MacKinnon are worth that, but they are a full rung above Debrincat and two above Jones.

The Hawks are in the unenviable position of not having enough talent to even worry about ‘losing’ guys to the cap. However, the intent is very much to restock this team with talent that will eventually command competitive salaries. The difference between $3M extra for Debrincat and being able to sign player XYZ to a heftier bridge deal could be real sooner than we think. I think Debrincat is a tremendous player, but he’s also not at the same level as McDavid and the very top elite players. If we’re giving Kane $7 or so, and Strome $4.5-6 for good play when the season is already completely lost… suddenly that cap space is drying up again. Throw in some below pay grade money for McCabe, Murphy, Johnson, Connolly,

The Hawks can be wanton with cap space when the risk is zero, but handing out mega-deals that stretch into eternity are what hamstrung the team from 2015 on. Edmonton, Toronto, and us all know how flimsy a roster is when you have nearly half the team making league minimum. That’s how we ended up with Manning, the ghost of Chris Kunitz, and the 18th hole of Cam Ward as an ‘offseason haul’.
- ObeseOprah

Correlation is not causation.

Tampa hasn't had issues staying relevant with their big guys making monies. Same with Pittsburgh and Washington. Colorado has a few guys making big money and they're the best team in the league.

Poor evaluation of the talent in the system and abhorrent trades have caused the problem. The Danault trade - bad. Losing all of the Brandon Saad trades. Getting zero futures when Panarin was moved. Holding on to tertiary players like Sharp too long then bringing them back.

If they were able to use some of those moves to reload talent rather then piss it away then they're probably in a better position now. Oops.

Correlation is not causation.

Tampa hasn't had issues staying relevant with their big guys making monies. Same with Pittsburgh and Washington. Colorado has a few guys making big money and they're the best team in the league.

Poor evaluation of the talent in the system and abhorrent trades have caused the problem. The Danault trade - bad. Losing all of the Brandon Saad trades. Getting zero futures when Panarin was moved. Holding on to tertiary players like Sharp too long then bringing them back.

If they were able to use some of those moves to reload talent rather then piss it away then they're probably in a better position now. Oops.
- fattybeef

Yea i think this erosion happens over time, i do agree after 2015 we lost about every trade we made. Look at all those wasted years by the Pens when they signed Malkin and Crosby to their big deals, now kind of fading again, TB those contracts will come due, Hedman looks either tired or a step step and half slower, Caps look like 1 and done, Avs best regular season team or is that Toronto? So far. Boston getting long in the tooth.

Added, its just not sustainable to pay your best players more money, stagnant cap, and keep reshuffling lines 3 and 4 and your 3rd pairing. We'll see how long the Bolts can do this but I'm thinking like Pitt, they'll have a good run in the playoffs come up short and slowly fade away

Correlation is not causation.

Tampa hasn't had issues staying relevant with their big guys making monies. Same with Pittsburgh and Washington. Colorado has a few guys making big money and they're the best team in the league.

Poor evaluation of the talent in the system and abhorrent trades have caused the problem. The Danault trade - bad. Losing all of the Brandon Saad trades. Getting zero futures when Panarin was moved. Holding on to tertiary players like Sharp too long then bringing them back.

If they were able to use some of those moves to reload talent rather then piss it away then they're probably in a better position now. Oops.
- fattybeef

Tampa circumvented the cap for the entire year last season, with Kucherov not playing a single game in the regular season. Most teams don’t try that. Colorado is only a few seasons removed from being the worst team in the league, and MacKinnon is on arguably the best deal in the league at $6 per. They could lose their entire second line this offseason with Kadri, Burakovsky, and Nichushkin all needing raises. They also have two picks over the next three years of first and second rounds. This is very much an all-in for this season and next until MacKinnon needs a new deal. I believe he hinted at taking a discount in order to afford more talent on the team, we’ll see if it actually happens.

I agree with everything you said about the Hawks moves.

The other thing to remember, when 19 and 88 signed, there was the understanding that the cap was going to increase. It never did. Whose fault is that? Everyone's. Just sayin the team has always been behind the 8 ball because the cap did not go up to match the salary increase.

The other thing to remember, when 19 and 88 signed, there was the understanding that the cap was going to increase. It never did. Whose fault is that? Everyone's. Just sayin the team has always been behind the 8 ball because the cap did not go up to match the salary increase.
- powerenforcer

And how many teams used the 2 compliance buyouts to get rid of lousy contracts. The Hawks didn't have any big salary players not performing, I know they used theirs on Montador and Olesz.

Remember these names with hideous contracts: Leino, Jovanovski, Kaberle, Gomez, Hedberg, DiPietro, Redden, B. Richards, Briere, Byzgolov, Lecavlier, Grabovski

As we get closer to the draft, as well as look at our own young prospects, I found this in a discussion about Pavelski, that I think is spot on and everyone needs to remember:

For some bizarre reason, when people see a great player drafted late they think "somebody (frank)ed up evaluating this guy" rather than "damn, it must be hard to gauge how good an 18-year-old is to develop." I mean...Pavelski and Byfuglien didn't even play for the US at the World Juniors.

Everybody, including the teams that drafted them, passed on Pavelski or Byfuglien or Lundqvist multiple times before taking a flier on them. And it ignores that some guys need multiple years to develop -- even at the NHL level! -- before they reach their potential. And about half a dozen other things need to go right, too.

So why did they get so much better after he came on board? Did the players stop being stupid? it was virtually the same roster.

Why was JC considered a bad coach, but King is OK?

Back to back 3+ goal leads given up.
Four straight games giving up at least four goals and two of them to teams that are theoretically worse than the Hawks.
Same mistakes over and over again.

I guess I'll end with this. What on the ice is the coach responsible for?
- Chunk

OK, while King may not be the next coming of Al Arbour, let's not forget the comparative performances.

Colliton 1-9-2, 16.7% of possible points
King 23-26-9, 47.4% of possible points.

Something changed when King took over.

OK, while King may not be the next coming of Al Arbour, let's not forget the comparative performances.

Colliton 1-9-2, 16.7% of possible points
King 23-26-9, 47.4% of possible points.

Something changed when King took over.
- scottak

My take - They weren't as bad as the record showed with JC (the team quit on him).
They aren't as good as the record shows with King (the team is playing harder for him).

Agreed 100%. Those contracts should be reserved for truly elite players. How have Tampa and Boston been competitive for long stretches in the past? Good contract management.
- TheDrumonMadison

The same people complaining not to spend too much money will be the same one's complaining we let "Pannarin" get away I know how this board works.

Correlation is not causation.

Tampa hasn't had issues staying relevant with their big guys making monies. Same with Pittsburgh and Washington. Colorado has a few guys making big money and they're the best team in the league.

Poor evaluation of the talent in the system and abhorrent trades have caused the problem. The Danault trade - bad. Losing all of the Brandon Saad trades. Getting zero futures when Panarin was moved. Holding on to tertiary players like Sharp too long then bringing them back.

If they were able to use some of those moves to reload talent rather then piss it away then they're probably in a better position now. Oops.
- fattybeef

Probably don't win in '15 without Sharp and then he was dumped the next week what do you want?

OK, while King may not be the next coming of Al Arbour, let's not forget the comparative performances.

Colliton 1-9-2, 16.7% of possible points
King 23-26-9, 47.4% of possible points.

Something changed when King took over.
- scottak

In three years with complete dog poop rosters, Colliton's record:

Career 87 92 26 .488

King has had several stretches where the team has looked like a complete mess as well (even without the current four game stretch).

They are the same (frank)in guy. King has a slight personality and he got Strome off his ass (or maybe Strome just figured he better actually work if he wants to stay in the league, or holy poop you put him on a line with Kane and all of a sudden he's good) so he is viewed as a bit better.

Same poop defensive issues.
Same sporadic offense
Same mind numbing lineup decisions
Same "we're not playing the right way" comments after games
Same 2nd period melt downs.

Same. (frank)in. Guy.

When I was at the Phoenix game I saw Seth Jones follow a guy who was not the puck carrier from the hawks net to the blue line. He actually had one foot in the neutral zone. Seemed to me the guy baited and pulled Jones away from the action strategically. I don't care what "system" a team is playing, having you biggest D man out at the blue line makes ZERO sense. I saw it up close for myself, they are a poop show in their own zone. Seth Jones would be a real good #2 but he needs a big bad ass stay at home to play with. As it is now what a waste of money and leverage of cap space. The posters who are ripping on the hawks asset management are right on. KD is going to require a lot of patience.
- 6628

S.Jones will become the SB parting gift that keeps on giving. If he is a fringe #1 now I don't see him necessarily getting any better as he ages. SO $9.5M for the next 8 years for a guy whose skills will most likely start to decline after the next 4 or so and who wasn't very good in his own zone to start with.

The absolute best move KD could make is to get out from under that contract as soon as possible.

Eh. They skate two AHL calibre lines a night and have some not good people on their blue line.

I honestly don't know what a lot of you people expect with this group.

Talent, brains, however you want to describe it is lacking - they are a bad team.

However, they do look more organized and less of a complete poop show then they did to start the season or last year.

To be fair to King and Crawford - the talented players are doing relatively well.

Seth Jones - at least relatively has decent enough fancy stats and is having a career year in terms of helpers. I still don't care for his tendency to get beat at the blue line but what are you gonna do.

Kane is doing what he does, Debrincat took a step forward and King and Co have gotten Dylan Strome to play consistently good hockey the last few months.

Some of the other fellers are just not NHL players. Or in the case of Dach its too soon to tell and with McCabe I don't think its fair to judge a guy who just came off a major knee operation and is all of a sudden expected to be the second best defender on the team - especially since he's a career 4 guy. Anyone with a brain should know that it typically takes a full year for players to get their previous level of play and I think its better to reserve judgement there until 20 games in next season.

Yeah the team sucks but its not like they aren't meeting expectations. There isn't a coach who could make this look good. They just need to get through the season, see what they can do to acquire some more young talent (draft or trades) and go from there.

Probably need to get a look at Reichel and Mitchell. This obsession with the AHL playoffs for a league where everyone (pretty much) makes the playoffs is stupid.
- fattybeef

Adding S. Jones, McCabe, T. Johnson, healthy Toews and MAF the expectation was that this team was playoff capable, Watching them play regularly changed those expectations.

And how many teams used the 2 compliance buyouts to get rid of lousy contracts. The Hawks didn't have any big salary players not performing, I know they used theirs on Montador and Olesz.

Remember these names with hideous contracts: Leino, Jovanovski, Kaberle, Gomez, Hedberg, DiPietro, Redden, B. Richards, Briere, Byzgolov, Lecavlier, Grabovski
- LAHawk

Lots of bad contracts out there, some worse than others. Lucic, Karlsson, Bobrovsky, Skinner, OEL, Subban, Ryan Johansen, Suter, Parise, the list goes on and on.

Lots of bad contracts out there, some worse than others. Lucic, Karlsson, Bobrovsky, Skinner, OEL, Subban, Ryan Johansen, Suter, Parise, the list goes on and on.
- TheTrob

Great point there, how many cups did the Wild win with those 2 contracts? And they will be paying for it for the next 3 years

Adding S. Jones, McCabe, T. Johnson, healthy Toews and MAF the expectation was that this team was playoff capable, Watching them play regularly changed those expectations.
- TheTrob

MAF and Jones are the only two close to expectations.

MAF and Jones are the only two close to expectations.
- rpeters01

Depends on your expectation......

I have never been a S. Jones fan, but I will say he has actually exceeded my expectations this season, unfortunately not in the defensive end of the ice. He has been better than I expected offensively and moving the puck, but is anything, he has been even a little worse than I expected in his own zone, granted he isn't ever playing with another true top pairing partner. MAF was as advertised, sometimes good, sometimes an adventure, but always entertaining.

In three years with complete dog poop rosters, Colliton's record:

Career 87 92 26 .488

King has had several stretches where the team has looked like a complete mess as well (even without the current four game stretch).

They are the same (frank)in guy. King has a slight personality and he got Strome off his ass (or maybe Strome just figured he better actually work if he wants to stay in the league, or holy poop you put him on a line with Kane and all of a sudden he's good) so he is viewed as a bit better.

Same poop defensive issues.
Same sporadic offense
Same mind numbing lineup decisions
Same "we're not playing the right way" comments after games
Same 2nd period melt downs.

Same. (frank)in. Guy.
- Chunk

Exactly right, Chunk.

That team had talent though.
- fattybeef

Whatever talent they had gave up the most goals in the league with the same talent the year before Trotz arrived.

Whatever talent they had gave up the most goals in the league with the same talent the year before Trotz arrived.
- mohel

Not really, the year before Trotz took over, the Islanders had deHaan

Not really, the year before Trotz took over, the Islanders had deHaan

- LAHawk

And in the 33 games he played that year he had 12 points and was +11 (3rd on the team).

Did Thomas Greiss really become that much better of a goalie in one offseason?

Yea i think this erosion happens over time, i do agree after 2015 we lost about every trade we made. Look at all those wasted years by the Pens when they signed Malkin and Crosby to their big deals, now kind of fading again, TB those contracts will come due, Hedman looks either tired or a step step and half slower, Caps look like 1 and done, Avs best regular season team or is that Toronto? So far. Boston getting long in the tooth.

Added, its just not sustainable to pay your best players more money, stagnant cap, and keep reshuffling lines 3 and 4 and your 3rd pairing. We'll see how long the Bolts can do this but I'm thinking like Pitt, they'll have a good run in the playoffs come up short and slowly fade away
- BetweenTheDots

Everyone on Tampa is already making money and into their prime. I'd disagree that Hedman has slowed down at all. He's still a monster though on the wrong side of 30.

The Penguins haven't missed the playoffs in 16 years, won 3 cups, made an additional final, only bounced out of the first round 3 times. Looks pretty successful to me...

Caps are consistently good. They've missed the playoffs one time in the past 15 years won a cup and are in the mix. Boston has been consistently good though not great as well.

Great teams need superstars and you have to pay them a lot of money. It seems a little ridiculous to think that is avoidable.

Its not sustainable to win consistently with a hard cap no matter what. Some teams have done a pretty good job extending their window more than 5 years and others fall as quickly as they rise.

Probably don't win in '15 without Sharp and then he was dumped the next week what do you want?
- rpeters01

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the flip him for a first round pick in 13 that turns into a cheaper more well rounded contributor for 15. Or a young player that hadn't quite figured it out yet (much like Sharp early in his career) that needed a change of scenery.

I want them to sell high on good players that can be replaced.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the flip him for a first round pick in 13 that turns into a cheaper more well rounded contributor for 15. Or a young player that hadn't quite figured it out yet (much like Sharp early in his career) that needed a change of scenery.

I want them to sell high on good players that can be replaced.
- fattybeef

Or make trades like Sergachev for Drouin