the problem with keeping kane, strome and Cat is they are not good def they are our 3 highest 5 vs 5 % goal scorers and they are still terrible in the +- Carpenter is better then cat +- teows is better then kane +- 1/3 of there PTS come on PP which are easy goals. with a good system anybody can get those pts and can get spread around. All those socring and PP stats just run up there PTs but have very little effect on winning and losing in comparison to 5 V 5. in all honesty paying Strome 5 mil, Cat and kane $9 makes no sense on a bad team. they have Dug such a huge hole wtih the Jones trade that im not sure it makes sense to keep them. Boquist and sillenger and our 1st this year. I think you could make the argument to keep them and get a top 5 this year and next and then start moving forward we are missing out on 2 top 6 forwards by the jones trade. means the rebuild lost 2 years.
- kmw4631

Why? cause we will be drafting 6-9 instead of 3-5? How many times has Detroit with the worst 1-2 records in the league drafted in the top 3? Any trade of those 3 are to a contender. You are not getting high #1's for them. Actually although the 5 x 5 play is not great, it is the putrid penalty kill that costs them in a great portion of the losses. At least the 3 can put points on the board, it is when you have Kubalik's on your team that gives up twice as many goals 5 x 5 than he scores that is the problem.\

And as far as the Rangers and the Kings. Who have they drafted in their rebuilds that are currently key contributors?

the problem with keeping kane, strome and Cat is they are not good def they are our 3 highest 5 vs 5 % goal scorers and they are still terrible in the +- Carpenter is better then cat +- teows is better then kane +- 1/3 of there PTS come on PP which are easy goals. with a good system anybody can get those pts and can get spread around. All those socring and PP stats just run up there PTs but have very little effect on winning and losing in comparison to 5 V 5. in all honesty paying Strome 5 mil, Cat and kane $9 makes no sense on a bad team. they have Dug such a huge hole wtih the Jones trade that im not sure it makes sense to keep them. Boquist and sillenger and our 1st this year. I think you could make the argument to keep them and get a top 5 this year and next and then start moving forward we are missing out on 2 top 6 forwards by the jones trade. means the rebuild lost 2 years.
- kmw4631

I think points are points. PP goals count just the same as 5V5. I'd much rather have a strong PK, but I'm happy with any scoring in any situation. They just need to be better overall 5V5.

At this point the only downsides to the Jones trade are his contract length and the extra 1st that was given up. Boqvist isn't as good as Jones and he cannot stay on the ice. Sillinger is no better than Dach. The Hawks still had a first round pick this year, and Allan has looked promising thus far.

Kane and Toews are only moving if they want to. I keep reading "if Kane is still on this team it isn't a full rebuild". Well, it's mostly in his hands. So the FO will have to move forward with their agenda working around that reality. If you change everything else around him, it's a pretty full rebuild.

Why? cause we will be drafting 6-9 instead of 3-5? How many times has Detroit with the worst 1-2 records in the league drafted in the top 3? Any trade of those 3 are to a contender. You are not getting high #1's for them. Actually although the 5 x 5 play is not great, it is the putrid penalty kill that costs them in a great portion of the losses. At least the 3 can put points on the board, it is when you have Kubalik's on your team that gives up twice as many goals 5 x 5 than he scores that is the problem.\

And as far as the Rangers and the Kings. Who have they drafted in their rebuilds that are currently key contributors?
- LAHawk

Plus they have better coaches.

the problem with keeping kane, strome and Cat is they are not good def they are our 3 highest 5 vs 5 % goal scorers and they are still terrible in the +- Carpenter is better then cat +- teows is better then kane +- 1/3 of there PTS come on PP which are easy goals. with a good system anybody can get those pts and can get spread around. All those socring and PP stats just run up there PTs but have very little effect on winning and losing in comparison to 5 V 5. in all honesty paying Strome 5 mil, Cat and kane $9 makes no sense on a bad team. they have Dug such a huge hole wtih the Jones trade that im not sure it makes sense to keep them. Boquist and sillenger and our 1st this year. I think you could make the argument to keep them and get a top 5 this year and next and then start moving forward we are missing out on 2 top 6 forwards by the jones trade. means the rebuild lost 2 years.
- kmw4631

Thats false. Kane_Debrincat-Strome at even strength have outscored opponents 27-18 this season. Kane Debrincat and Dach have outscored opponents 11-6.

Why? cause we will be drafting 6-9 instead of 3-5? How many times has Detroit with the worst 1-2 records in the league drafted in the top 3? Any trade of those 3 are to a contender. You are not getting high #1's for them. Actually although the 5 x 5 play is not great, it is the putrid penalty kill that costs them in a great portion of the losses. At least the 3 can put points on the board, it is when you have Kubalik's on your team that gives up twice as many goals 5 x 5 than he scores that is the problem.\

And as far as the Rangers and the Kings. Who have they drafted in their rebuilds that are currently key contributors?
- LAHawk

hehe 6-9.

The Wings have drafted 0 times in the top 3 since they were good.

They had one 4 (Lucas Raymond - which looks money), and then as you mentioned three 6's and a 9. Seider was a 6.

Not dissimilar to the Hawks their last productive draft was a very long time ago.

And there's different way's to redo a kitchen. Some people repaint and replace hardware on their cabinets, some people rip everything out. Both can yield wonderful and terrible results.

Really goes back to having a vision on what you want the team to ultimately look like and getting players that fit into that. The Kings more or less are still a big heavy team and the Rangers for the most part are super fast and exciting and their players fit. Carolina likes a certain type of player. They finally found the right guys in Florida to fill out that roster.

Certainly not as simple as "trade everyone".

the problem with keeping kane, strome and Cat is they are not good def they are our 3 highest 5 vs 5 % goal scorers and they are still terrible in the +- Carpenter is better then cat +- teows is better then kane +- 1/3 of there PTS come on PP which are easy goals. with a good system anybody can get those pts and can get spread around. All those socring and PP stats just run up there PTs but have very little effect on winning and losing in comparison to 5 V 5. in all honesty paying Strome 5 mil, Cat and kane $9 makes no sense on a bad team. they have Dug such a huge hole wtih the Jones trade that im not sure it makes sense to keep them. Boquist and sillenger and our 1st this year. I think you could make the argument to keep them and get a top 5 this year and next and then start moving forward we are missing out on 2 top 6 forwards by the jones trade. means the rebuild lost 2 years.
- kmw4631

Plus minus on a terrible team isn't a very relevant stat.

Look at natural stat trick to see the 5v5 numbers for the three. They are pretty solid.

the problem with keeping kane, strome and Cat is they are not good def they are our 3 highest 5 vs 5 % goal scorers and they are still terrible in the +- Carpenter is better then cat +- teows is better then kane +- 1/3 of there PTS come on PP which are easy goals. with a good system anybody can get those pts and can get spread around. All those socring and PP stats just run up there PTs but have very little effect on winning and losing in comparison to 5 V 5. in all honesty paying Strome 5 mil, Cat and kane $9 makes no sense on a bad team. they have Dug such a huge hole wtih the Jones trade that im not sure it makes sense to keep them. Boquist and sillenger and our 1st this year. I think you could make the argument to keep them and get a top 5 this year and next and then start moving forward we are missing out on 2 top 6 forwards by the jones trade. means the rebuild lost 2 years.
- kmw4631

Problem with getting rid of all 3 of them, best forwards on the team, you have to replace them? 2 of them haven't even hit their prime yet. Unless a deal like Hagels comes along that's too good to pass up, no way, the only thing delaying this rebuild is the quality of the FOs draft picks.

Keep your best players, sign vets to 1 year deals if you can and continue to flip them at the trade deadline for picks.

Thats false. Kane_Debrincat-Strome at even strength have outscored opponents 27-18 this season. Kane Debrincat and Dach have outscored opponents 11-6.
- TheTrob

So, those two are better with Dach than Strome.....

That'll bother some....

King at least says the right stuff in interviews in terms of how he works with players and all that jazz.

I can't imagine the Hawks would have him out on the press tour if they weren't trying to pad that extension.

Ummmm, that being said I guess they could do worse. They maybe could do better. Hopefully they do a decent job interviewing people and go from there. Would be fun if they considered a female head coach.
- fattybeef

I think the next few years will be about a coach who handles the media well, handles the kids, but importantly sets in motion they way they WILL play regardless of the lack of talent.

You do not want the slippery slopes of player development and tactics to lead to poor communications inside or out.

I truly don't know what this "head coach" has brought as he was asked tofu in the middle of a in place coaching system supporting him and the players.

But I am not so sure that they need a former Cup winning coach b/c they are not winning in the future for a while.

I guess if the majority of the player roster thinks the coach is a buffoon, or weak tactically, or has little to offer them as a road to success the teams finds someone, as the first try in real new coach from outside."

I watched just one of the Amazon Prime movies special about the Leafs and their coach and GM, and I really liked the way it is done, very transparent and it is worth the watch. (and I usually shy away from Hard Knocks and non Blackhawk team NHL stuff.

Plus minus on a terrible team isn't a very relevant stat.

Look at natural stat trick to see the 5v5 numbers for the three. They are pretty solid.
- fattybeef

plus minus compared to other people on the team is somewhat relevent. compared to a good team is not. I just think tying up 29% of our cap for a below AVG top line that will keep us drafting 8-13 does not make a lot of sense when they could return a ton of picks and cheap young players. there are only 3 really good players on this team JONES, KANE and CAT. jones is not tradable. so that leaves the other 2. you need to amass as many high picks and solid assets as possible and hope you get a little lucky and you do a better job then the other GM's. Its rare top 5 players bust. 6-15 is much higher. When I say bust means is not even a NHL player. Perlini is a example.

Keeping Kane and Cat strome is just another version of the reboot. IMO. if you trade them and also use the cap space to ADD players (Tevo type trade) you could be talking about 10 assets between 1-2 rd picks and players you hope you hit on 1/2 of those and then fill in with a few UFA's. what if kane opts not to stay. you give Cat 9 X 8 mil and he drops to 27 goals and 50 pts. then he is untradeable. or you extend kane for 9 X 4 he then becomes untradeable.

plus minus compared to other people on the team is somewhat relevent. compared to a good team is not. I just think tying up 29% of our cap for a below AVG top line that will keep us drafting 8-13 does not make a lot of sense when they could return a ton of picks and cheap young players. there are only 3 really good players on this team JONES, KANE and CAT. jones is not tradable. so that leaves the other 2. you need to amass as many high picks and solid assets as possible and hope you get a little lucky and you do a better job then the other GM's. Its rare top 5 players bust. 6-15 is much higher. When I say bust means is not even a NHL player. Perlini is a example.

Keeping Kane and Cat strome is just another version of the reboot. IMO. if you trade them and also use the cap space to ADD players (Tevo type trade) you could be talking about 10 assets between 1-2 rd picks and players you hope you hit on 1/2 of those and then fill in with a few UFA's. what if kane opts not to stay. you give Cat 9 X 8 mil and he drops to 27 goals and 50 pts. then he is untradeable. or you extend kane for 9 X 4 he then becomes untradeable.
- kmw4631

Lol

A top line with a +90 point player and a 40 goalscorer is certainly not below average.

Lol

A top line with a +90 point player and a 40 goalscorer is certainly not below average.
- fattybeef

I'm sure Minny would love to have him opposite Kaprizov

plus minus compared to other people on the team is somewhat relevent. compared to a good team is not. I just think tying up 29% of our cap for a below AVG top line that will keep us drafting 8-13 does not make a lot of sense when they could return a ton of picks and cheap young players. there are only 3 really good players on this team JONES, KANE and CAT. jones is not tradable. so that leaves the other 2. you need to amass as many high picks and solid assets as possible and hope you get a little lucky and you do a better job then the other GM's. Its rare top 5 players bust. 6-15 is much higher. When I say bust means is not even a NHL player. Perlini is a example.

Keeping Kane and Cat strome is just another version of the reboot. IMO. if you trade them and also use the cap space to ADD players (Tevo type trade) you could be talking about 10 assets between 1-2 rd picks and players you hope you hit on 1/2 of those and then fill in with a few UFA's. what if kane opts not to stay. you give Cat 9 X 8 mil and he drops to 27 goals and 50 pts. then he is untradeable. or you extend kane for 9 X 4 he then becomes untradeable.
- kmw4631

compared to the rest of the team, that line combination has the best +/- of all combinations. Your perception that Kane/ADB/Strome are weak defensively is not necessarily incorrect, but the FACT is that they are +9 as a line, so as bad as they are defensively, they still outscore the opponent.

If KD were able to get 10 assets for Kane and ADB then he is a genius. Hagel netted you potentially 3 or 4, but thats because he was on a sweatheart deal that was easily moved.

Lol

A top line with a +90 point player and a 40 goalscorer is certainly not below average.
- fattybeef

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.
- kmw4631

They were often matched against a defensive line they should score more.

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.
- kmw4631

They don't though as has been mentioned here numerous times.

In the 1st mock draft of the year that I've seen, Bleacher Report has CBJ taking Joakim Kemell, Center, of JYP (Finland) 6th overall.

Only a thousand mock drafts to go.

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.
- kmw4631

Hossa was one of the most elite scorers the NHL has ever had. Toews and Saad were both above average. That was an elite scoring line. What made them exceptional was their ability to play in all 3 zones.

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.
- kmw4631

BTW, tracking points in 5v5 comparisons is worthless. Look at the goals only. It doesn't matter of thre are 0, 1 or 2 assists on a goal, for 5v5 comp purposes.

Hossa was one of the most elite scorers the NHL has ever had. Toews and Saad were both above average. That was an elite scoring line. What made them exceptional was their ability to play in all 3 zones.
- scottak

that line had 55 EV goals in 2015 compared to 60 Cat strome kane. in quite a few less games. my point is that line scores but does not effect the wins and losses nearly as much as the Goal totals would make you think. investing heavily in those 3 $$$ and they are also some of our best trade chips is going to only hurt-halt the rebuild. we will will put they same bad team out there 3-4 more years and have little to no high end prospects especially Forwards. you cannot just rebuild with your own 1st (we do not even have one this year or next) to speed up the rebuild you need to trade for multiple high end picks in 2-3 year stretch along with picking up prospects. if we keep all 3 of those and extend them what do we trade for high picks or prospects? murph starting a new contract off a concussion? mcabe who was bad. Jones is owed 9.5 X 8? Teows at 5.25 with 37 pts? kubalik with ARB rights? cap space is also terrible important in a rebuild. which I think people are missing. taking on a 2-3 year bad contract from a contender will get you a 1st or high end prospect.

I

that line had 55 EV goals in 2015 compared to 60 Cat strome kane. in quite a few less games. my point is that line scores but does not effect the wins and losses nearly as much as the Goal totals would make you think. investing heavily in those 3 $$$ and they are also some of our best trade chips is going to only hurt-halt the rebuild. we will will put they same bad team out there 3-4 more years and have little to no high end prospects especially Forwards. you cannot just rebuild with your own 1st (we do not even have one this year or next) to speed up the rebuild you need to trade for multiple high end picks in 2-3 year stretch along with picking up prospects. if we keep all 3 of those and extend them what do we trade for high picks or prospects? murph starting a new contract off a concussion? mcabe who was bad. Jones is owed 9.5 X 8? Teows at 5.25 with 37 pts? kubalik with ARB rights? cap space is also terrible important in a rebuild. which I think people are missing. taking on a 2-3 year bad contract from a contender will get you a 1st or high end prospect.

I
- kmw4631

Jones is untradeable, Kane is only (if he wants) to a contender so you don't get any higher picks than what Hagel received, plus you have to take on a bad contract to make the money work, Strome is not going to get you a high pick, maybe a A-, B prospect and is 25, and ADB is all of 24years old, and would receive a couple of good prospects, but that is what they are prospects. You know what you have with ADB.

And tanking to get the first draft choice, how did that work out for Detroit? The Hawks actually have drafted in approximately the same spots (Dach 3rd, Raymond 4th),Bovquist 8th, Seider 6th.

The Kings (Kopitar, Doughty) and Rangers (signed Panarin, traded for Trouba, had Zibanijad, Kreider) rebuilt, but they didn't throw a thermo-nuclear warhead to it.

Carter Baum
@CarterBaum
#Blackhawks look in morning skate — lone change from Monday’s win looks like C. Jones for Gustafsson

DeBrincat - Strome - Kane
Kubalik - Toews - T. Johnson
Kurashev - Lafferty - Raddysh
Katchouk - R. Johnson - Borgstrom

McCabe - Regula
Vlasic - S. Jones
Stillman - C. Jones

that line had 55 EV goals in 2015 compared to 60 Cat strome kane. in quite a few less games. my point is that line scores but does not effect the wins and losses nearly as much as the Goal totals would make you think. investing heavily in those 3 $$$ and they are also some of our best trade chips is going to only hurt-halt the rebuild. we will will put they same bad team out there 3-4 more years and have little to no high end prospects especially Forwards. you cannot just rebuild with your own 1st (we do not even have one this year or next) to speed up the rebuild you need to trade for multiple high end picks in 2-3 year stretch along with picking up prospects. if we keep all 3 of those and extend them what do we trade for high picks or prospects? murph starting a new contract off a concussion? mcabe who was bad. Jones is owed 9.5 X 8? Teows at 5.25 with 37 pts? kubalik with ARB rights? cap space is also terrible important in a rebuild. which I think people are missing. taking on a 2-3 year bad contract from a contender will get you a 1st or high end prospect.

I
- kmw4631

I really don't think the cap will be any hindrance to the team in the near future even if those three are on the team. As of right now, they have $21.6M to sign ten players. I would bet a pay check that a high number of the players they sign are going to be at or around $1M.

The problem is that you still need to ice a team. You can't simply throw out a team full of Janmarks and de Haans. I would say keeping ADB is a done deal. He's young, driven, an established scorer, and is always looking to improve. That is the type of player you are trying to build and attract. KD said this was going to be a long process. Believe people when they tell you the truth. Don't expect a 2-3 year turnaround.

iit is if they other teams line that plays against you scores more then you. SAAD teows and hossa were never elite scoring lines but they scored way more then the line that was on the ice with them and that is why they were a good top line. They controlled play when they were on the ice. for every time cat strome and kane get a highlight goal they also get buried in the D zone for 2 mins and give up a easy goal. its not about how many pts you score, its about how many pts you score compared to how many PTs you give up when you are on the ICE if that line produces 70 goals and 130 pts 5 vs 5 but give up 80 goals 145 pts is that above AVG? ( i know who your G and D are matter as well) Its a good 2nd scoring line that will get paid like a top line.

I would love kane to come back but I would prefer to to trade him to a contender, jump start the rebuild with our best assets and have him come back in 23-24 as a UFA and team capt.
- kmw4631

If Kane decides to go, he isn't coming back, unless it's like Hossa, to sign a one day contract and retire a Hawk. Kane isn't cup chasing at this point, and he has never made any indication that he is. Trading him at the TDL next year knowing he has a couple months left on his deal is not going to get you a truckload back. There are plenty of dumb GM's out there, the stupidity only goes so far however.

Yeah, Kane and Debrincat bring the most return, they also leave the biggest holes in your lineup. Your top prospects over the past few years average around 20 something goals. Debrincat already has two 40+ goal seasons and one in which he had 32 in 52 games. From '16-22 Kane has outscored every player in the league not named McDavid. Prospects and picks are crap shoots. LaFreniere was a "generational" player when he was drafted #1, he has 30 goals total over 2 seasons.

If Kane decides to go, he isn't coming back, unless it's like Hossa, to sign a one day contract and retire a Hawk. Kane isn't cup chasing at this point, and he has never made any indication that he is. Trading him at the TDL next year knowing he has a couple months left on his deal is not going to get you a truckload back. There are plenty of dumb GM's out there, the stupidity only goes so far however.

Yeah, Kane and Debrincat bring the most return, they also leave the biggest holes in your lineup. Your top prospects over the past few years average around 20 something goals. Debrincat already has two 40+ goal seasons and one in which he had 32 in 52 games. From '16-22 Kane has outscored every player in the league not named McDavid. Prospects and picks are crap shoots. LaFreniere was a "generational" player when he was drafted #1, he has 30 goals total over 2 seasons.
- TheTrob

Hate to say it but it's going to be a process. From the time Stamkos was drafted it took the Bolts 7 years to get to the finals, 11 to win a Cup?

Ovechkin 13 years

So many things have to go right, my hope is we've got 2 starters per year in the system since 2017?

Just seeing how long it takes and the layers of talent needed, you can't trade a young talented player who could actually be a part of winning.

Is Ottawa closer than we are? Kings have had a good year but are they really anything more than a fringe playoff team?

I'm glad we weren't like the Red Wing teams who would play lights out in the 1st 25-30 games then 500 hockey and have a short playoff appearance, we only had 2 years of thinking we were more than we were.