Imagine if this was New York. Say, the New York Yankees. Do you really think the management and coaching staff, and all of the core pieces would return after 6 consecutive first round losses?
- fifty__missions

The coaching staff and management and core pieces have changed over 6 seasons mang. Remember Lou, Babcock, Maholtra, Freddy, etc?

When you trade for a goalie who's best skill is being tall, don't be surprised when they don't have a ton of skill.
- Monkeypunk

He had a pretty good year on a bad team that's rebuilding. They may take on Mrazek for assets in the process.

Yeah and they had the lead in game 6 and a phantom call leading to a 5 on 3. They controlled the overtime but couldn't beat one of the best goalies in the game (to Cush's point, shots were 9-5, but 3 of them were on the final goal).

Game 7 had the tying goal taken away by a horrible interference call that is never called.

I don't know what to tell you, man. You get so angry about this stuff that you lose objectivity. This is a good team. This is a team that showed pushback and played hard. This is a team that played physical when they had to and played through it when they wanted to. But good teams are also good teams and they clog the D-Zone, collapse in front of their goalie, and clear the puck to hold wins. Tampa is a good team. They just took out the president's trophy winners in 4.

I'll agree that the Leafs still have work to do to be harder to play against and harder to come back against. Tampa has more experience. I don't think this team needs to change much other than learning to take the critical next steps.
- Monkeypunk

I think the series loss to Tampa taught the Leafs that in order to go deep in the playoffs, they can't take any shifts off.. I'm reminded of the Gretzky story when the Oilers lost to the Islanders in the Cup final.. Maybe this loss, is the Leafs version of that Oilers story?

The coaching staff and management and core pieces have changed over 6 seasons mang. Remember Lou, Babcock, Maholtra, Freddy, etc?
- Zezel

You think that list of moves above is how a franchise like the Yankees - a franchise and fanbase that does not tolerate losing - would respond?

The coaching staff and management and core pieces have changed over 6 seasons mang. Remember Lou, Babcock, Maholtra, Freddy, etc?
- Zezel

Hyman too.. Can't forget Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson, but yeah... Same group

You think that list above is how a franchise like the Yankees - a franchise and fanbase that does not tolerate losing - would respond?
- fifty__missions

I don't follow boreball enough to know. But I notice you deflected the fact they in fact have changed the GM, coaching staff and roster significantly over the 6 years.

If the Yankees would blow it up after their best winning percentage in franchise history, they are dumb.

Hyman too.. Can't forget Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson, but yeah... Same group
- PatC80

They kept their probable Hart winning player and the guy who lead the league in points since Jan 1st, and a bunch of other guys who had career years...time to blow it up because they lost a coin flip to one of the best teams of the cap era...who they had a better record than all year...better overcorrect and steer into the ditch cause butthurt

You gotta have a pretty thin skin to take offense to that post, Cush. I get a new bumhole ripped daily for my opinions. Just sayin.
- fifty__missions

just stop your whining about the Leafs lost. it very tiresome
if you are that angry, disappointed or whatever in the Leafs, go join spatso and cheer for the Sens.

I don't follow boreball enough to know. But I notice you deflected the fact they in fact have changed the GM, coaching staff and roster significantly over the 6 years.

If the Yankees would blow it up after their best winning percentage in franchise history, they are dumb.
- Zezel

Who said anything about blowing it up? My point is that this team - and a portion of the fanbase - has slid into accepting, tolerating, and excusing losing.

Imagine if this was New York. Say, the New York Yankees. Do you really think the management and coaching staff, and all of the core pieces would return after 6 consecutive first round losses?
- fifty__missions

It's an apples:oranges argument. Again, I said this before: Tampa took 8-9 years. Most rebuilds take 7+ years to really make those solid gains. I will completely agree that very few have seen the number of 1st round failures - so there's no argument there. Very few of them have been in the unfortunate situation of competing with some power house teams. I mean it's pure speculation at this point, but I firmly believe the Leafs would have beaten Boston - or Washington, and Florida would have been an interesting series.

To your question about the Yankees and why I think it's not really a fair question?
What if those pieces (for the most part obviously) were all under 25 and showing improvement year over year? The difference in this analogy is that the New York Yankees never tore it down and burnt the building and kicked it over and then started building again.

They always had the money and the lack of a real hard cap constraint to be able to buy back a team if they ever wanted one. They also had the money to go find ways to acquire talent elsewhere when needed.

The analogy is also weakened because baseball players simply don't make the bigs as 18 year olds and be given the luxury of time to learn in the majors. If they did, it would likely require more developmental patience.

Your point isn't lost - but in the world of hockey I firmly believe there's a time elapsed in a rebuild and the Leafs' one has a couple of problems: (1) It happened faster than expected, so they weren't ready to take the next step for at least the first 2 years. (2) There have been problems with the compete level of this team. We've seen it all ourselves. There was an either the expectation that it was going to be easy, or the undesired not showing up when it was difficult.

Do I think it may be time to change something? Maybe - but the change has to be something they can do, that will make them better, and that won't hurt them in the longer term given the relative youth of the core players. So to provide a an example to that vaguary: I likely wouldn't trade Matthews or Marner. You'll never get the value in return that you'd lose in trading them.

Who said anything about blowing it up? My point is that this team - and a portion of the fanbase - has slid into accepting, tolerating, and excusing losing.
- fifty__missions

What can YOU do to change it?

NOTHING but whine about it.

GEEZZZ

He had a pretty good year on a bad team that's rebuilding. They may take on Mrazek for assets in the process.
- gravyface

Even if his only skill is being tall, it's a skill. Mrazek's only skill is a lack of adequate vowels in his name.

You think that list of moves above is how a franchise like the Yankees - a franchise and fanbase that does not tolerate losing - would respond?
- fifty__missions

I think if the NHL didnt have a salary cap, the Leafs would also outspend the rest of the teams by 100million and win a lot also.

but the never accept losing yankees haven't won in 12 seasons

You think that list of moves above is how a franchise like the Yankees - a franchise and fanbase that does not tolerate losing - would respond?
- fifty__missions

The Yankees could pay whatever they want and terminate deals. Though I do agree that I think there needs to be some type of winning hockey person in the system. Not just Shanny from being a player or Dubas as an OHL/AHL Manager. Like a VP or something.

I think the series loss to Tampa taught the Leafs that in order to go deep in the playoffs, they can't take any shifts off.. I'm reminded of the Gretzky story when the Oilers lost to the Islanders in the Cup final.. Maybe this loss, is the Leafs version of that Oilers story?
- PatC80

Yeah. Well, there's always object lessons - the thing is are they ready or capable of listening and learning them? This is something I can see where fifty's ire is directed: After so many losses, are these guys capable of learning and adapting and doing? After losing to Boston, it was pretty evident that being able to play harder and not take plays for granted was required - but that same team failed to execute when it counted against Columbus, for the same reasons, the following year. Last year was a bit of an oddity - was it failure to play through the toughness? Price? A lack of team depth? A lack of team toughness? A bit of everything? I think last year's Leafs played through physicality all season long, so the playoffs weren't much of a surprise - but they just weren't willing to go pay the price and they were still taking shifts off, as you note. Remember Gallagher's face at the end of the series?

This year's team seems to have learned some of those lessons. I don't think anything cowed them or stopped them. I think they pushed back when pushed, and I think they did fight through - but I agree that they didn't play every shift like it mattered. If they learn one thing this year and can add to the acumen of things they've already learned, it's that there's no time to take for granted.

Who said anything about blowing it up? My point is that this team - and a portion of the fanbase - has slid into accepting, tolerating, and excusing losing.
- fifty__missions

But you assume that someone who has a different view of improving the team is accepting, tolerating and excusing losing.

You think that list of moves above is how a franchise like the Yankees - a franchise and fanbase that does not tolerate losing - would respond?
- fifty__missions

No cap in baseball and they're the richest team in the league at 6 billion dollars.

Imagine if Toronto didn't have a cap right now, this off-season? They could bury Forsberg, Johhny hockey, Nino, Kadri, etc. with a truckload of money...

Even if his only skill is being tall, it's a skill. Mrazek's only skill is a lack of adequate vowels in his name.
- Monkeypunk

The Yankees could pay whatever they want and terminate deals. Though I do agree that I think there needs to be some type of winning hockey person in the system. Not just Shanny from being a player or Dubas as an OHL/AHL Manager. Like a VP or something.
- AdamFrench

Hayley Wickenheiser has won a few times

But you assume that someone who has a different view of improving the team is accepting, tolerating and excusing losing.
- Canada Cup

I'm talking about Brendan Shanahan. He's too invested in his decisions at this point to see alternatives.

Who said anything about blowing it up? My point is that this team - and a portion of the fanbase - has slid into accepting, tolerating, and excusing losing.
- fifty__missions

But it's really not this. The reason people aren't demanding massive change is that the progress is there. This wasn't a collapse. This wasn't an epic failure. It wasn't the result we hoped for, and to be totally honest with you, it wasn't the result we deserved. We were the better team for most of that series. That's why I am not joining in the song singing for massive change. I was willing to join that song after last year's loss to the Habs, but at some point you have to trust the process to some degree.

Not to mention it turns out that management isn't listening to the Music for the Masses, even though it was a pretty great album.

But it's really not this. The reason people aren't demanding massive change is that the progress is there. This wasn't a collapse. This wasn't an epic failure. It wasn't the result we hoped for, and to be totally honest with you, it wasn't the result we deserved. We were the better team for most of that series. That's why I am not joining in the song singing for massive change. I was willing to join that song after last year's loss to the Habs, but at some point you have to trust the process to some degree.

Not to mention it turns out that management isn't listening to the Music for the Masses, even though it was a pretty great album.
- Monkeypunk

I can't agree with you there. It was a collapse. Someone in here during game 7 described it aptly as a slow motion collapse. We froze up, again, in game 7 after giving away game 6.

The Yankees could pay whatever they want and terminate deals. Though I do agree that I think there needs to be some type of winning hockey person in the system. Not just Shanny from being a player or Dubas as an OHL/AHL Manager. Like a VP or something.
- AdamFrench

Assistant to the Manager of winning

I'm talking about Brendan Shanahan. He's too invested in his decisions at this point to see alternatives.
- fifty__missions

He has a plan and has been given a window to execute by the board (his contract is up 2024-25).

If they fail to achieve their goals, he's gone, along with everyone else top down.

I'm fine with that. I actually prefer this to knee-jerk reactionary moves.

Assistant to the Manager of winning
- senstroll

What IS Charlie Sheen doing these days? I mean other than hookers and blow.