I'd like to know where this belief that Torts is great at developing young players comes from.
- FlyerFan3260

From the same fantasy world where Ristolainen is having his best season and DeAngelo was a good move.

I dunno... I really didn't look at the previous comments, but sometimes I wonder what he is actually watching on the ice.
- Phillywhiteout

This is how I know I got it right.

IMO the problem with Ghost was that AV didn't like him and didn't know how to use him correctly. Ironically, they say they needed cap space and they traded him away for pennies on the dollar, and the coach was fired not long after. So they compounded that mistake when they realized they needed to replace what he did by spending three MORE draft picks and 500k MORE cap space on a guy who in my opinion is at best a lateral move.

Fletch was acting like he had a team that was much closer than it was and in the process continually set them back. We are now further away then when he started.

I'll take that last year of Hagg, the 1st and 2nd pick, and the cap space any day over Ristolainen just like I would take Ghost and those 4 picks over DeAngelo. This team had no business making those moves ever. This isn't hindsight on my part as I have felt this way from the very beginning about Ghost AND Ristolainen. Plus all the wasted cap space.
- MBFlyerfan

Drafting first overall works when there's a team built around that player, and if he approaches his ceiling.

Let's say the Rangers, rather than doing a short rebuild in which cap space creation (to be able to acquire Panarin, Trouba and, over time, to sign Fox to an extension after his ELC) has been the biggest element had put all their eggs in the basket that Lafreniere and Kakko were going to be their saviors and to worry later about team-building.

The Colorado rebuild was actually TWO rebuilds, starting in 2008, and it still took drafting Makar after they already had Landeskog (2nd overall in 2012), McKinnon (1st overall in 2013) and Rantanen (10th overall in 2015) in place.

Pittsburgh built their b2b Cups off the Crosby (1st overall), Malkin (2nd overall), Fleury (1st overall), Letang (2nd rounder) nucleus. But how did they stay a perennial contender in the East for many, many years as they were annually traded off first round picks and one or both of Crosby/Malkin would miss stretches due to injury? Good fortunate in 77th overall pick Guentzel becoming a legit star in his own right. Some trades for vets that extended the window another year or two at a time.
- bmeltzer

Not disputing that top picks alone guarantee nothing. It does take a team around them and the picks reaching their potential. But, using your examples, they all have a #1 overall, they all have a #2 overall, most have 3-4 players taken top 10 overall.

Any team building approach takes risks and there are no guarantees which is what I feel you want before acknowledging the flyers need the high draft picks.

Most Stanley cup teams have a the top #1 + at least 1 more top #2-5 performing to potential on their teams. Certainly those who remain contenders for extended periods.

Teams need both ingredients and usually fail when trying to bake a cake without all of the ingredients. Do you imagine the Pens and Avs would have won or even be contenders without those highly drafted players mentioned regardless if everything else panned out the same?

Would you rather pay Hayes $7,142,857/yr or Landeskog $7,000,000/yr? The difference in that is drafting/developing players and as poorly as the Flyers have been at it they do themselves no favors by continuing to trade away picks for vets to win now.

Let's also not forget that the Flyers pay a premium for FAs these days as a bottom feeder. The Flyers need players who outperform their contracts/assets used to acquire them which is harder to do the more you overpay in assets.

Not disputing that top picks alone guarantee nothing. It does take a team around them and the picks reaching their potential. But, using your examples, they all have a #1 overall, they all have a #2 overall, most have 3-4 players taken top 10 overall.

Any team building approach takes risks and there are no guarantees which is what I feel you want before acknowledging the flyers need the high draft picks.

Most Stanley cup teams have a the top #1 + at least 1 more top #2-5 performing to potential on their teams. Certainly those who remain contenders for extended periods.

Teams need both ingredients and usually fail when trying to bake a cake without all of the ingredients. Do you imagine the Pens and Avs would have won or even be contenders without those highly drafted players mentioned regardless if everything else panned out the same?

Would you rather pay Hayes $7,142,857/yr or Landeskog $7,000,000/yr? The difference in that is drafting/developing players and as poorly as the Flyers have been at it they do themselves no favors by continuing to trade away picks for vets to win now.

Let's also not forget that the Flyers pay a premium for FAs these days as a bottom feeder. The Flyers need players who outperform their contracts/assets used to acquire them which is harder to do the more you overpay in assets.
- Flyers_01

It doesn't seem all that complicated, does it? Have to wonder if the organization realizes this or if they do realize it. Why they haven't and are unwilling to adjust. The day they had that absurd press conference firing Hextall. I knew they were done. That's not about Hextall. It was about what they said. How they felt they were just a few moves away. Wanted to be relevant again and be a cap team. I wonder if Dave Scott realize how idiotic he sounded.

Tonight’s keys to the game.

*The Flyers and Philadelphia fans will reward both the Barry Ashbee award and Norris Trophy to Shayne Gostisbehere before tonight’s match.

*Morgan Frost will get two points and John tortorella will scream at him from behind the bench at how much he sucks, while giving Noah Cates a back rub.

*Ristolainen will do five things right and one thing wrong and Flyers fans will harp on it for 15 days straight.

*Konency will score a goal

*The Flyers will win and fans will complain that they’re ruining their draft position or the Flyers will lose and fans will complain that management is ruining this team.

- Flyers_01

You should start an NHL team with Ghost and Hagg as the cornerstone of your defense. Every GM knows this is the way to the cup.

Tonight’s keys to the game.

*The Flyers and Philadelphia fans will reward both the Barry Ashbee award and Norris Trophy to Shayne Gostisbehere before tonight’s match.

*Morgan Frost will get two points and John tortorella will scream at him from behind the bench at how much he sucks, while giving Noah Cates a back rub.

*Ristolainen will do five things right and one thing wrong and Flyers fans will harp on it for 15 days straight.

*Konency will score a goal

*The Flyers will win and fans will complain that they’re ruining their draft position or the Flyers will lose and fans will complain that management is ruining this team.
- SuperSchennBros

I don't get why you are still trying to defend the $5,100,000 third pairing dman with 2 points in 31 games and the worst defensive results on the team.

Back in the day we used to argue over whether LSchenn or Gudas was the better player. Well, both of them are miles better than Ristolainen despite being four years older than him, and they don't cost nearly as much.

You should start an NHL team with Ghost and Hagg as the cornerstone of your defense. Every GM knows this is the way to the cup.
- BluehorseShoe64

As opposed to Deangelo and Ristolainen being 2/4 of your top 4 is going to make you a cup contender? Ghost and Hagg combine for a $5.3 mil cap hit. Ristolainen's cap hit alone is $5.1mil. Not to mention all of the picks that were sent in the Ghost, Risto and Deangelo trades. The reason why everyone is so hot on getting a comp pick for O'Brien is because the Flyers won't be picking in the second round until 2025 (barring any trades or trade ups).

Risto: 31 GP, 2 P, -5, ES GF% Rel -3.77, 18:21 TOI/GP, $5,100,000 cap hit

Gudas: 29 GP, 6 P, +4, ES GF% Rel +1.71, 18:31 TOI/GP, $2,500,000 cap hit

Schenn: 37 GP, 10 P, +4, ES GF% Rel +6.8, 17:25 TOI/GP, $900,000 cap hit

You should start an NHL team with Ghost and Hagg as the cornerstone of your defense. Every GM knows this is the way to the cup.
- BluehorseShoe64

I'd rather have a team now with all the draft picks and Ghost and Haag than Ristolainen and DeAngelo. That's a no brainer.

When, when he was racking up 46, 40 and 65 point seasons. Your post is filled with hyperbole. Gostisbehere and AV clashed, Gostisbehere had some confidence issues and his game suffered. Amazng that it picked right back up in Phoenix.

TDA is as advertised. Pretty good offensively and pretty bad defensively. It was a brutal move to acquire TDA by Fletcher.


Gostisbehere 36 GP 9G 17A -4

DeAngelo 33 GP 7G 15A -9
- MJL

Point totals do not directly reflect puck possession. Ghost was NOT a possession type player. He was a shoot first, ask questions later type player. And they clashed because of the turnovers. If my posts seem like hyperbole, then your opinion of Ghost suffers from the same if you didn't notice the aforementioned issues. You make it sound like he was the next Norris trophy candidate out there. Nothing could be further from the truth. If he was so good, then he should have been able to overcome coaching. Good players maintain their level of play from coach to coach, happens all the time.
Ghost is playing better now because he had no choice. Once you are traded to a lower bottom feeder, the next stop is the minors. I'm glad he fixed his game. But his play here for 3 different coaches declined. I don't know how you blame A.V. for the previous years! The trade worked for him, that's good enough for me.

Finally, TDA wasn't brought here for his defensive capabilities. Was brought for the power play, which he has helped.
And I'm never going to defend CF's trade components. We all know he is not a good GM, but, we can't do anything about it. Have to move on with the current group. I'm just about accepting it and appreciating where we are.
Finally, coaches can guide players, but it is ultimately up to them to be pros. How come AV had such a good start for the first year and then the drop off ? Something he put in place was working. This team had lacked the ability to play with consistent effort game in and game out for years. I put it on those players, and to a lesser degree AV in not addressing the drop off. It was not Xs and Os.

We should also be looking at why it takes a coach to motivate players to play ! Isn't their salary enough ? That shouldn't be the job of the coach, but Torts is that guy. You can lament about the past, blame coaches etc. I'm moving forward as we are getting to a better place now.

I'd rather have a team now with all the draft picks and Ghost and Haag than Ristolainen and DeAngelo. That's a no brainer.
- MJL

100%.

Could the Flyers be showcasing Ersson for a potential significant trade? If not, why not send him down to the Phantoms now? Sandstrom can clearly gain his conditioning back by practicing with the team.

I'd rather have a team now with all the draft picks and Ghost and Haag than Ristolainen and DeAngelo. That's a no brainer.
- MJL

I can't argue with this point, I agree. I can't help but think about what if the Flyers had Ghost this year and were trading him at the deadline instead of Arizona? Arizona has set themselves up nicely and continue to make Fletcher look like a fool. Cooley looked awful good in the WJCs, as did Guenther for Canada. The future looks bright for Arizona and they will get better with more assets to trade at this deadline.

I don't have a stream. How does Cutter look tonight?

How is the game?! Is it a good one?
- Bob Habib

Cutter was not a factor in this game against Canada. It was a really disappointing result to be honest. Snuggerud and Cooley were clearly more impactful players in this tournament. Not that Cutter was bad by any means, he certainly had his moments, but I would have liked to see more from him in this pivotal game.

Point totals do not directly reflect puck possession. Ghost was NOT a possession type player. He was a shoot first, ask questions later type player. And they clashed because of the turnovers. If my posts seem like hyperbole, then your opinion of Ghost suffers from the same if you didn't notice the aforementioned issues. You make it sound like he was the next Norris trophy candidate out there. Nothing could be further from the truth. If he was so good, then he should have been able to overcome coaching. Good players maintain their level of play from coach to coach, happens all the time.
Ghost is playing better now because he had no choice. Once you are traded to a lower bottom feeder, the next stop is the minors. I'm glad he fixed his game. But his play here for 3 different coaches declined. I don't know how you blame A.V. for the previous years! The trade worked for him, that's good enough for me.



- BluehorseShoe64

Gostisbehere finished on the top 10 of Norris trophy voting one season with the Flyers. There is nothing in any of my posts that suggests that Gostisbehere is the next Norris trophy candidate. This is more hyperbole.

Here are some facts for you on turnovers for the subpar seasons in question

https://www.nhl.com/stats...sPer60&page=0&pageSize=50

In 19/20, Gostisbehere ranked 142nd among NHL defenseman with 2.07 GvA/60


https://www.nhl.com/stats...sPer60&page=3&pageSize=50

in 20/21 Gostisbehere ranked 161st in the NHL in GvA/60 among NHL defenseman.

Now here is where Gostisbehere ranked among Flyers defenseman in those two seasons. In 19/20 Gostisbehere ranked 6th and in 20/21 he ranked 8th

https://www.nhl.com/stats...sPer60&page=0&pageSize=50

https://www.nhl.com/stats...sPer60&page=0&pageSize=50

Finally, TDA wasn't brought here for his defensive capabilities. Was brought for the power play, which he has helped.
And I'm never going to defend CF's trade components. We all know he is not a good GM, but, we can't do anything about it. Have to move on with the current group. I'm just about accepting it and appreciating where we are.
Finally, coaches can guide players, but it is ultimately up to them to be pros. How come AV had such a good start for the first year and then the drop off ? Something he put in place was working. This team had lacked the ability to play with consistent effort game in and game out for years. I put it on those players, and to a lesser degree AV in not addressing the drop off. It was not Xs and Os.


- BluehorseShoe64

So DeAngelo has an excuse for his poor defensive play because he wasn't brought here to play defense. Got it. Didn't you make a post just yesterday that defenseman are there to limit scoring chances of the opposition, first & foremost.? Seems contradictory.
Larger sample sizes are more of a true indication that smaller sample sizes. Vigneault like most coaches was adamant about his system and playing a man to man/overload hybrid system that the Flyers just couldn't play effectively. He failed to make adjustments and alienated players.

We should also be looking at why it takes a coach to motivate players to play ! Isn't their salary enough ? That shouldn't be the job of the coach, but Torts is that guy. You can lament about the past, blame coaches etc. I'm moving forward as we are getting to a better place now.
- BluehorseShoe64

Flyers past problems have nothing to do with motivation. It's simply about talent and to a lesser extent coaching. What better place are they getting to? They're one of the worst teams in the league

I can't argue with this point, I agree. I can't help but think about what if the Flyers had Ghost this year and were trading him at the deadline instead of Arizona? Arizona has set themselves up nicely and continue to make Fletcher look like a fool. Cooley looked awful good in the WJCs, as did Guenther for Canada. The future looks bright for Arizona and they will get better with more assets to trade at this deadline.
- jd250

chuckles past performance should have clued people in on how horrible of a gm he is/was - yet some thought it was a good hire and backed every move he made

From the same fantasy world where Ristolainen is having his best season and DeAngelo was a good move.
- MJL

DeAngelo is a good player and in a perfect world a nice fit with the Flyers. The problem is this is not a perfect world and it was not the time and place to trade for DeAngelo, just as it was not the right move to resign Risto given the state of the team. Fletcher was grasping at straws to save his job versus doing what is right for the Flyers moving forward. The team had a perfect storm of issues, from not handling Covid well, to the coach losing the locker room, to the many injuries, to the younger players not being as good as thought or being ready to take the next step. Fletcher should have acknowledged this and acted appropriately for the good of the team!

chuckles past performance should have clued people in on how horrible of a gm he is/was - yet some thought it was a good hire and backed every move he made
- corduroy

I for one hoped he had learned from mistakes and was going to be better, and he did have what I consider to be a very good start in Philly. But it has all gone downhill unfortunately, and honestly no matter what happens this season, I can't see a scenario where Fletcher survives. Briere is going to be the GM and Torts seems to be completely on board with it. I just hope Briere is his own person and not just a puppet.

I for one hoped he had learned from mistakes and was going to be better, and he did have what I consider to be a very good start in Philly. But it has all gone downhill unfortunately, and honestly no matter what happens this season, I can't see a scenario where Fletcher survives. Briere is going to be the GM and Torts seems to be completely on board with it. I just hope Briere is his own person and not just a puppet.
- jd250

Still have no clue why you think he was off to a good start. After a significant period of time. Such as 9 years for a GM or 10 years in the case of Ristolainen. They are what they are.

What information do you have that Tortorella is on board with Briere being the GM. There is only one person that Tortorella is on board with. Himself.

Did you read the article that I linked to on Jim Montgomery and how a modern day NHL coach teaches his team to play?

I can't argue with this point, I agree. I can't help but think about what if the Flyers had Ghost this year and were trading him at the deadline instead of Arizona? Arizona has set themselves up nicely and continue to make Fletcher look like a fool. Cooley looked awful good in the WJCs, as did Guenther for Canada. The future looks bright for Arizona and they will get better with more assets to trade at this deadline.
- jd250

Whether it works out long term for Arizona or not, you can see their plan and from a distance it looks very promising. Young, exciting cost controlled talent and very little in sunk costs. Plenty of assets/cap space to supplement those players as determined in the future.

It would be great if the Flyers had a plan besides spending all their assets/cap space every year to see what sticks. I guess that's a plan but not a good one. The Flyers are not a good team that was just "a player away". I think they might lead the league in veteran 5+ year high dollar contracts on LTIR who may or may not ever play again. At some point it makes sense to stop digging the hole.

You should start an NHL team with Ghost and Hagg as the cornerstone of your defense. Every GM knows this is the way to the cup.
- BluehorseShoe64

\\

And don't forget the 1st, two 2nds, 3rd, and 4th round picks and millions in cap space that come with them.

Flyers past problems have nothing to do with motivation. It's simply about talent and to a lesser extent coaching. What better place are they getting to? They're one of the worst teams in the league
- MJL

yes, the Flyers are one of the worst teams in the league and I sincerely hope they stay that way to give them the best chance to get an impact player in this draft. The only thing I disagree with you on is the reason. I believe its the roster and the players that are behind why this team is bad, its not the coaching. Torts is the 3rd coach in 2 years with essentially this same group of players, and though the team results are poor, this is the first year in the past several that we are seeing growth in players, and not just young players, but some veteran players like Laughton and TK. Both are playing at the highest levels they have played at as a Flyer. I think Torts and his staff deserve some credit, they at least IMO are part of the solution here, not the problem.

Whether it works out long term for Arizona or not, you can see their plan and from a distance it looks very promising. Young, exciting cost controlled talent and very little in sunk costs. Plenty of assets/cap space to supplement those players as determined in the future.

It would be great if the Flyers had a plan besides spending all their assets/cap space every year to see what sticks. I guess that's a plan but not a good one. The Flyers are not a good team that was just "a player away". I think they might lead the league in veteran 5+ year high dollar contracts on LTIR who may or may not ever play again. At some point it makes sense to stop digging the hole.
- Flyers_01

The flyers blow. They will never stop digging that hole. Sadly