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And don't forget the 1st, two 2nds, 3rd, and 4th round picks and millions in cap space that come with them.





- MBFlyerfan

That is really vomit inducing when you see assets in black and digital.

I don't get why you are still trying to defend the $5,100,000 third pairing dman with 2 points in 31 games and the worst defensive results on the team.

Back in the day we used to argue over whether LSchenn or Gudas was the better player. Well, both of them are miles better than Ristolainen despite being four years older than him, and they don't cost nearly as much.
- Feanor

You don’t get a lot of things…

I think you need update and educate yourself. Luke Schenn has two cups since then and probably one of Vancouver’s better defenders.

Loving the nine year old argument you’ve created though. Like literally, it’s been nine years.

Did you read the article that I linked to on Jim Montgomery and how a modern day NHL coach teaches his team to play?
- MJL

Thank you for sharing that article, I had not seen it yet. However now that I have I found this section very relavent:

“I think it’s a balance you develop,” Montgomery told reporters Tuesday, per team-provided video. “I think my second year as a head coach we had a really good team and I think I pushed too hard with that group. And I think I learned that if you’re trying to be perfect, you become very negative. And then the players kind of start playing safe, and to me safety is a good way to find yourself on the wrong side of a lot of games. You can’t be safe.”

It’s a philosophy from Montgomery it feels Boston needed, especially after Bruce Cassidy’s message seemed to grow stale at the end of his tenure with the club, and one that has paid ample dividends with the Bruins getting off to a historic start and having yet to lose in regulation on home ice.

Montgomery has obviously done a great job with the Bruins. However his philosophy as stated here is almost word for word as Tortarella's coaching philosophy. Torts has stated numerous times that he does not want to overload players and get them thinking too much, and has stated as long as his players are responsible on the defensive end they have free reign offensively. This is exactly what Montgomery is stating in Boston, so if Montgomery is a what you consider a modern-day NHL coach (and I agree that he is), then you have to say so is Tortorella. So if this is true, why aren't the Flyers as good as the Bruins? That is easy to answer, the roster's are no where close in terms of talent. Who on the Flyers right now are as good as: McAvoy, Lindholm, Pastrnak, Bergeron, Marchand & Hall?

yes, the Flyers are one of the worst teams in the league and I sincerely hope they stay that way to give them the best chance to get an impact player in this draft. The only thing I disagree with you on is the reason. I believe its the roster and the players that are behind why this team is bad, its not the coaching. Torts is the 3rd coach in 2 years with essentially this same group of players, and though the team results are poor, this is the first year in the past several that we are seeing growth in players, and not just young players, but some veteran players like Laughton and TK. Both are playing at the highest levels they have played at as a Flyer. I think Torts and his staff deserve some credit, they at least IMO are part of the solution here, not the problem.
- jd250

I don't think you're clear on what you're disagreeing with. I have said more times than I can count that the Flyers issue is talent. Not just coaching. So what are you talking about?

It's a myth that Tortorella is helping young players. He has done more to hurt them to help them. He is mis-using Cates. Instead of building on the success that Frost had in the stretch of last season. He started him off playing with the wrong linemates. He forced the wrong decision in sending York to the minors when he should've been on the team the entire time. The only thing he has done for Tippet to give him some ice time but I would specula, that if Tortorella had access to vets like Atkinson. Tippet wouldn't be getting that ice time.
Laughton is not playing at the highest level he has as a Flyer. Konecny is just playing as he has always been capable of. What specifically coaching wise or systems wise has Tortorella done to aid veteran players. I don't see the solution they are offering. The style of play the Flyers play is archaic. In all facets.

I'll link again to an article that enlightens on how a modern- day NHL coach teaches his team to play

https://theathletic.com/3...ns-montgomery-new-system/

Thank you for sharing that article, I had not seen it yet. However now that I have I found this section very relavent:



Montgomery has obviously done a great job with the Bruins. However his philosophy as stated here is almost word for word as Tortarella's coaching philosophy. Torts has stated numerous times that he does not want to overload players and get them thinking too much, and has stated as long as his players are responsible on the defensive end they have free reign offensively. This is exactly what Montgomery is stating in Boston, so if Montgomery is a what you consider a modern-day NHL coach (and I agree that he is), then you have to say so is Tortorella. So if this is true, why aren't the Flyers as good as the Bruins? That is easy to answer, the roster's are no where close in terms of talent. Who on the Flyers right now are as good as: McAvoy, Lindholm, Pastrnak, Bergeron, Marchand & Hall?
- jd250

Seriously?


The difference in how Mongomery teaches his team to play and how Tortorella teaches his team to play. Is monumental and easy to see.

Tortorella BS'es his way out of a lot of stuff. Such as blowing off analytics and nonsense about not wanting to overload players.

Did you by any chance read the much larger sections on how Montgomery has coached his team on breakouts and generating speed. How to use the middle of the ice and attack. How to regroup and retain possession if a clean entry isn't possible. How he changed the team from a volume shot approach to a high percentage shot team? Those are the relevant sections.

One coach plays modern day hockey. The other, Tortorella plays turtle hockey.

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And don't forget the 1st, two 2nds, 3rd, and 4th round picks and millions in cap space that come with them.





- MBFlyerfan

Now who would want to build a team with those?

IMO the problem with Ghost was that AV didn't like him and didn't know how to use him correctly. Ironically, they say they needed cap space and they traded him away for pennies on the dollar, and the coach was fired not long after. So they compounded that mistake when they realized they needed to replace what he did by spending three MORE draft picks and 500k MORE cap space on a guy who in my opinion is at best a lateral move.

Fletch was acting like he had a team that was much closer than it was and in the process continually set them back. We are now further away then when he started.

I'll take that last year of Hagg, the 1st and 2nd pick, and the cap space any day over Ristolainen just like I would take Ghost and those 4 picks over DeAngelo. This team had no business making those moves ever. This isn't hindsight on my part as I have felt this way from the very beginning about Ghost AND Ristolainen. Plus all the wasted cap space.

- MBFlyerfan

For the record, I wanted Ristolainen prior to the trade but I never wanted him at the expense of a first round pick. It’s just a move I never would have made. I was also over having Ghost on this roster if he couldn’t improve his own end and wanted him gone but never at the expense of a second round pick. Wanting a player or wanting to move a player doesn’t mean at any cost.

Now what’s done is done and all the draft picks lost and cap space offered is never on the player. It’s on the GM. I take issue with all the draft picks lost. I don’t really have an issue with Ristolainen’s new deal because it’s not max years, we’re gonna be bad for awhile and the money seems average to any other top four defenseman in the league at his age.

What I don’t understand is believing Ristolainen was bright in to replace Ghost. That’s not true, DeAngelo is and Yandle before him. I believe Risto was brought in to offer a different element that was missing on the back end, right or wrong.

Vancouver’s better defenders.
- SuperSchennBros

Now there's an oxymoron.

Now there's an oxymoron.
- Tomahawk

You’re free to take a look. What’s moronic period is digging up a nine year old argument and being wrong in that argument as if it’s still 2014-15.

You’re free to take a look. What’s moronic period is digging up a nine year old argument.
- SuperSchennBros

Oxymoron as in contradictory statements. It was a dig at the Canucks for being absolute dogpoop defensively. As in defense and Vancouver don't belong in the same sentence.

Seriously?


The difference in how Mongomery teaches his team to play and how Tortorella teaches his team to play. Is monumental and easy to see.

Tortorella BS'es his way out of a lot of stuff. Such as blowing off analytics and nonsense about not wanting to overload players.

Did you by any chance read the much larger sections on how Montgomery has coached his team on breakouts and generating speed. How to use the middle of the ice and attack. How to regroup and retain possession if a clean entry isn't possible. How he changed the team from a volume shot approach to a high percentage shot team? Those are the relevant sections.

One coach plays modern day hockey. The other, Tortorella plays turtle hockey.
- MJL

Seriously?

How can you in one post state that you believe the primary problem is the lack of talent on the roster, and then in a separate post state its Tort's fault for playing "turtle hockey"?? Yes, at times the Flyers do play "turtle hockey" but that is NOT because Torts wants them to play that way, that is solely because you have a roster of below average players (with some exceptions of course) most nights playing against superior players. In any sport, not just hockey, when this happens it appears as one team is just hanging on. Its the roster and only the roster! Torts has been getting the most out of his roster and deserves credit! Do you think the modern-day coach Jim Montgomery could get any more out of this Flyers roster? Come on man ...

Seriously?

How can you in one post state that you believe the primary problem is the lack of talent on the roster, and then in a separate post state its Tort's fault for playing "turtle hockey"?? Yes, at times the Flyers do play "turtle hockey" but that is NOT because Torts wants them to play that way, that is solely because you have a roster of below average players (with some exceptions of course) most nights playing against superior players. In any sport, not just hockey, when this happens it appears as one team is just hanging on. Its the roster and only the roster! Torts has been getting the most out of his roster and deserves credit! Do you think the modern-day coach Jim Montgomery could get any more out of this Flyers roster? Come on man ...
- jd250

Hate to tell you this but the turtling in the dzone and PK is by design... and it doesn't change when Torts has better players. He just makes the superstars collapse and block shots too.

Seriously?

How can you in one post state that you believe the primary problem is the lack of talent on the roster, and then in a separate post state its Tort's fault for playing "turtle hockey"?? Yes, at times the Flyers do play "turtle hockey" but that is NOT because Torts wants them to play that way, that is solely because you have a roster of below average players (with some exceptions of course) most nights playing against superior players. In any sport, not just hockey, when this happens it appears as one team is just hanging on. Its the Roster and only the Roster! Torts has been getting the most out of his Roster and deserves credit! you think the modern-day coach Jim Montgomery could get any more out of this Flyers roster? Come on man ...
- jd250

Do I honestly need to explain that there can be multiple problems with a team? Yes it is how Tortorella wants to play. Systems wise, Tortorella coaches his team to play passively with no puck pressure. They sit back passively defensively. They run archaic rim breakouts with little options for defenseman. They lack neutral zone pressure. Nor do they defend the blueline. They do nothing systems wise to play with speed.

What can you provide for me factually that shows that Tortorella is getting the most out of this roster?

I'm under no illusions that Montgomery would transform this roster into a quality team. I have no doubt however that Montgomery would have the team playing a better style of hockey that is more conducive for developing players and building a foundation for the team moving forward

Tortorella believes hockey is about intangibles and having the other team thinking they're in for a battle when the Flyers get off the bus. It's old school and archaic. Fits right in with the Flyers organization.

I don't think you're clear on what you're disagreeing with. I have said more times than I can count that the Flyers issue is talent. Not just coaching. So what are you talking about?

It's a myth that Tortorella is helping young players. He has done more to hurt them to help them. He is mis-using Cates. Instead of building on the success that Frost had in the stretch of last season. He started him off playing with the wrong linemates. He forced the wrong decision in sending York to the minors when he should've been on the team the entire time. The only thing he has done for Tippet to give him some ice time but I would specula, that if Tortorella had access to vets like Atkinson. Tippet wouldn't be getting that ice time.
Laughton is not playing at the highest level he has as a Flyer. Konecny is just playing as he has always been capable of. What specifically coaching wise or systems wise has Tortorella done to aid veteran players. I don't see the solution they are offering. The style of play the Flyers play is archaic. In all facets.
- MJL

Travis Konecny before this season scored 0.63 pts/game and averaged about 16 minutes of ice time. This season Konecny is scoring 1.15 pts/game and is playing 20 minutes a game in all situations.

Scott Laughton before this season scored 0.35 pts/game and averaged about 14 minutes of ice time. This season Laughton is scoring 0.55 pts/game and averaging 18 minutes a game, and has scored 2 PP and 2 SH goals this season, already matching his career totals!

Coincidence? Puck Luck? Stars aligned? Or maybe, just maybe the coaching has something to do with it.

But let's continue, regardless of whether you think Frost should have been given a chance to play top line minutes at the start of the season or not (which I do not believe he should have), Frost in the last 10 games has 5G and 4A (0.9 pts/game) and playing about 17 minutes per night. Before this recent stretch in his career Frost only scored 0.27 pts/game and averaged about 12 minutes of ice time.

As someone posted yesterday, Risto's underlying metrics (though still bad) are the best he has posted in his entire career! Carter Hart is having a terrific season so far, even if the underlying numbers don't say that. Heck, even Kevin Hayes is scoring more than ever, this season scoring 0.86 pts/game while for his career he only scored 0.56 pts/game. JVR is playing much better (15 points in 18 games), Tippet is having his best season as a pro and now Farabee is starting to improve (since Torts publicly challenged him to stop using his injury as an excuse). Cates is developing a strong 200 foot game and while never being touted as an offensive juggernaut, he has a 1G 4A in his last 5 games!

The evidence is overwhelming .. Torts and his staff are doing a great job and deserve a ton of credit!!

Hate to tell you this but the turtling in the dzone and PK is by design... and it doesn't change when Torts has better players. He just makes the superstars collapse and block shots too.
- Tomahawk

I don't agree with you and I sincerely hope at some point Tort's actually gets some top-end talent on this roster to prove it.

Travis Konecny before this season scored 0.63 pts/game and averaged about 16 minutes of ice time. This season Konecny is scoring 1.15 pts/game and is playing 20 minutes a game in all situations.

Scott Laughton before this season scored 0.35 pts/game and averaged about 14 minutes of ice time. This season Laughton is scoring 0.55 pts/game and averaging 18 minutes a game, and has scored 2 PP and 2 SH goals this season, already matching his career totals!

Coincidence? Puck Luck? Stars aligned? Or maybe, just maybe the coaching has something to do with it.


- jd250

Scott Laughton's 5 on 5 scoring is down this season from last year. Last year he scored at a rate of 1.6 P/60 while this year scoring at a rate of .82. A significant decrease. Laughton would likely not be playing on the PP if Atkinson and Couturier were healthy.

But let's continue, regardless of whether you think Frost should have been given a chance to play top line minutes at the start of the season or not (which I do not believe he should have), Frost in the last 10 games has 5G and 4A (0.9 pts/game) and playing about 17 minutes per night. Before this recent stretch in his career Frost only scored 0.27 pts/game and averaged about 12 minutes of ice time.


- jd250

Yes, let's continue. We'll start with having to again correct you. I did not state that Frost should be playing on the top line. Frost would've been further along as a player at this point if not for the Flyers bungling his development last year. Which Tortorella continued for a good part of this season. Let's remember. You believe that Frost is an AHL player.

As someone posted yesterday, Risto's underlying metrics (though still bad) are the best he has posted in his entire career! Carter Hart is having a terrific season so far, even if the underlying numbers don't say that. Heck, even Kevin Hayes is scoring more than ever, this season scoring 0.86 pts/game while for his career he only scored 0.56 pts/game. JVR is playing much better (15 points in 18 games), Tippet is having his best season as a pro and now Farabee is starting to improve (since Torts publicly challenged him to stop using his injury as an excuse). Cates is developing a strong 200 foot game and while never being touted as an offensive juggernaut, he has a 1G 4A in his last 5 games!

The evidence is overwhelming .. Torts and his staff are doing a great job and deserve a ton of credit!!
- jd250

Again I have to correct you. Those metrics were limited to defensive play and was only a slight improvement. It did not look at Ristolainen's play as a whole

Hart had a really strong start and has played really well. He was a big reason why the Flyers were in some games and even won some games they shouldn't have. You'll have to explain to me how a coach is helping a goaltender with his coaching. While that goaltender has to face an onslaught of shots and scoring chances.


Tortorella moved Hayes away from center and limited his ice time. His scoring has now fallen off of a cliff. He is on his way to alienating the player. Instead of using the player in the best manner in case of the slim chance of trading the player.

JVR is playing well offensively. As he has before. Always been a streaky player do we'll see if it continues. There is nothing that stands out that points to Tortorella making JVR a better player.

Farabee has been the player he has always been. He is second on the team in p/60 at 5 on 5. Which is only a slight increase from last season. Again, no indication that anything that Tortorella is doing is helping the player to grow.

Cates is currently 9th on the team in P/60 at 5 on 5. Not what you want from your first line center. Playing on the wing last year at 5 on 5, which is his strength. Cates scored at a rate of 2.51 P/60. This year he is scoring at a rate of 1.12 P/60. A significant decrease. To be fair, last year was a smaller sample size.

The bottom line is that the team sits 28th in the league in scoring. 26th in CF%. 29th in XGF%. 30th in SCF%. 27th in HDCF%. These are the offensive numbers of the team but somehow you believe that Tortorellla is helping the team to be better offensively. There is no evidence of that.

I don't agree with you and I sincerely hope at some point Tort's actually gets some top-end talent on this roster to prove it.
- jd250

Not sure how a basic fact cannot be agreed to. There is no debate on that. He'll play the same way simply because he has for years.

Deslauriers is a below average skater. Hayes is significantly better.
- MJL

what are you watching?