How can anyone see that the player has objectively improved when he has been given a reduced role and went from a 20+ minute player to a 3rd pair 17 minute player. The only area of his play that he was decent at in the past, was putting up solid point totals. His offense has fallen off of a cliff. He has 6 points in 40 + games. He deserves credit for a couple of really nice plays he has made recently but a player is judged on the whole. Not on a few plays.

Coaching.
- MJL

Well there it is ... you also refuse to give Torts any credit, even though its crystal clear in just about every corner of the NHL that Torts is coaching his butt off this season to even get what he is getting out of this roster. You have many times posted how embarrassing this roster is and yet Torts has this team playing better this year than they have since 2019. Look, I agree with you when it comes to Fletcher, and I also was against hiring Torts, but Torts has won me over, just like Risto's play so far this season.

In sports, and life actually, you often have to take a step back to take a leap forward. Torts has done that with this team so far this year, and he has done it with individual players like Risto. I agree with you, let the season play out and see where the team is, and where Risto is, and then we can objectively evaluate both.

Got to be honest here. That does not sound very MJL like. I really doubt he said he expected 60 points out of Frost this season.

- mickel25

I didn't. Consider the source. What I have said in conversations concerning Frost was in consideration of what is his upside. I think his ceiling might be around 60 points. I don't think he is going to be a point per game or higher scorer but you never know. Of course that is quite different than expecting 60 points this season from Frost. One of the arguments that I have consitently made concerning Frost is that although he is older, in terms of games played, he is a second season NHL player. Expecting 60 points this season would be unrealistic.

They try as hard as they can.

York is 5'11 175 and totally inexperienced... and you want him taking prime defensive responsibilities?

Provy was at least physically ready for the task coming out of the draft. And I think most people have realized by now that throwing him in the deep end as an 18-yo was detrimental to his development.
- Tomahawk

Who said anything about prime defensive responsibilities? He’s isn’t a regular on the PK. He’s seen sometime but he isn’t at all seeing regular PK time. You can start there.

Well there it is ... you also refuse to give Torts any credit, even though its crystal clear in just about every corner of the NHL that Torts is coaching his butt off this season to even get what he is getting out of this roster. You have many times posted how embarrassing this roster is and yet Torts has this team playing better this year than they have since 2019. Look, I agree with you when it comes to Fletcher, and I also was against hiring Torts, but Torts has won me over, just like Risto's play so far this season.

In sports, and life actually, you often have to take a step back to take a leap forward. Torts has done that with this team so far this year, and he has done it with individual players like Risto. I agree with you, let the season play out and see where the team is, and where Risto is, and then we can objectively evaluate both.
- jd250

Conflating. The response was concerning Ristolainen. Not Tortorella.

Yes, we actually do. Torts said many times at the beginning that he was "watching from above" just trying to get a read on who was who. This whole drama has been well documented. There was a disconnect between what York thought he needed to do and what Torts wanted him to do. That is clear.

Torts made up his mind on York very early.
- MBFlyerfan

how many 20-21 year old defensemen, who have only played a handful of games.....comes to camp with a new coach, struggles in camp but yet starts the year with the big club?

the only drama is months later, the player is onwith the big club and doing well. finally a prospect is showing good promise....but he was handled completely wrong...lol

again. how many players were rushed to the nhl and had issues with development, how many had their development hindered by some ahl playing time? which list has more names?

York is young. Used to be d man, unless very high caliber did not get to the NHl at Yorks age. As there is more of a learning curve playing defense at the NHL.

Here is the bottom line. I repeatedly stated that Frost needs to play with better offensive players in better offensive situations to produce. That it wasn't going to happen with grinders. Now we see that coming true. Meanwhile, you argued against that with me repeatedly and that Frost was an AHL player. We see how that has turned out. The same way every other debate you and I have had. Literally every single one. With the facts ultimately proving you to be incorrect.
- MJL

In your estimation, is Frost a top 6 forward in this league? He is playing with good players right now and has been for a while. He has played better I give him that, but I see no indication what-so-ever that Frost is or will be a legitimate top 6 forward for a good team in this league. Frost is definitely not suited for a 4th line role, so its a 3rd line player (center or wing) or bust. Right now that is what I see Frost becoming, a 3rd line player on a good team, or a top 6 forward in Arizona.

I couldn't agree with you more. My contention all along is Risto has never been given the proper coaching to develop as a player. We all know what Buffalo is as a franchise. How many GMs and coaches did they have since Risto has been drafted? How many of those coaches were actually any good? Buffalo clearly has fallen down even worse than the Flyers when it comes to player development. When Risto came to the Flyers it was a fresh start. But what happened, just a month into the season AV is fired and only an assistant coach is retained to coach the team the rest of the year. This is really the first year in Risto's entire career that he has actually had a legitimate and proven coaching staff, and it started out rocky for Risto. We was benched and told he needed to play differently if he wanted to play here, and to his credit Risto has taken the coaching and revamped his game. He is still a work in progress but so far he has played miles better defensively than probably at any time in his career and his offense is coming back.

With all this said, I was against resigning Risto at the deadline last year and his contract is quite frankly ridiculous and a fireable offense. Risto IMO will never live up to his contract, but I think he can be a solid 4th defenseman that can give you 25-30 points a season. If he can do that, I can live with the contract.

The problem I have with a few of you is you all just refuse to give the player any credit at all, and refuse to objectively see that he has improved.
- jd250

Making the same tired arguement of “he’s been in the league ten years and has always been bad” as if it’s impossible he can improve (even though he has) is ridiculous.

Jay Bouwmeester is the perfect example of an uneven career. All the potential in the world in Florida. Bad in Calgary. Key shutdown defenseman in St Louis, which saw him win a cup. I’m not at all suggesting Ristolainen is Jay Bouwmeester on any level but in the right situation, any player can see improvement.

Conflating. The response was concerning Ristolainen. Not Tortorella.
- MJL

Right, until you added "Coaching " which was a direct shot at Torts and his staff.

In your estimation, is Frost a top 6 forward in this league? He is playing with good players right now and has been for a while. He has played better I give him that, but I see no indication what-so-ever that Frost is or will be a legitimate top 6 forward for a good team in this league. Frost is definitely not suited for a 4th line role, so its a 3rd line player (center or wing) or bust. Right now that is what I see Frost becoming, a 3rd line player on a good team, or a top 6 forward in Arizona.
- jd250

I'm aware that you see no indication. You've labeled him an AHL player. Doesn't mean that there aren't indications that he has the talent because he obviously does and it's easily seen.

You think Ristolainen after 9 NHL seasons just hasn't had the right coach. McAvoy is not a top NHL defenseman and on and on and on.

Right, until you added "Coaching " which was a direct shot at Torts and his staff.
- jd250

No, it wasn't a direct shot at Tortorella and his staff. It was a direct shot at the ridiculous opinion and excuse that Ristolainen just hasn't had the right coaches for 9 NHL seasons

Bad players don’t see beyond a decade in the NHL. See Randy Jones and Andrew MacDonald.

I'm aware that you see no indication. You've labeled him an AHL player. Doesn't mean that there aren't indications that he has the talent because he obviously does and it's easily seen.

You think Ristolainen after 9 NHL seasons just hasn't had the right coach. McAvoy is not a top NHL defenseman and on and on and on.
- MJL

Frost has a ton of talent, and I have heard from people the stuff he does in practice is mind blowing sometimes. Great wonderful, he has the talent. But that does not always translate to the actual games. Frost has made some nice plays this year no doubt, but in the end, if you are going to hold Risto's numbers against him, you have to be consistent and do the same thing for Frost.

Regarding Risto, yes I contend he has not had the coaching and proper development, and with his raw talent and skill can be much better than he has shown so far. Torts and his staff are doing a good job with him so far and I have no problem recognizing that. I never said McAvoy was not a good defenseman, I simply stated I would not have given him that contract and in general I think too many teams are signing good but not great defenseman to these large and overpriced contracts.

Frost has a ton of talent, and I have heard from people the stuff he does in practice is mind blowing sometimes. Great wonderful, he has the talent. But that does not always translate to the actual games. Frost has made some nice plays this year no doubt, but in the end, if you are going to hold Risto's numbers against him, you have to be consistent and do the same thing for Frost.



- jd250

I'm wondering what it takes. Ristolainen has played 650 NHL games and is in his 10th season. Frost has played 125 NHL games and is in his second full NHL season. One player is a young developing player. The other is not.

Regarding Risto, yes I contend he has not had the coaching and proper development, and with his raw talent and skill can be much better than he has shown so far. Torts and his staff are doing a good job with him so far and I have no problem recognizing that. I never said McAvoy was not a good defenseman, I simply stated I would not have given him that contract and in general I think too many teams are signing good but not great defenseman to these large and overpriced contracts.
- jd250

Ristolainen is now a 3rd pair defenseman. You stated that McAvoy was not a top NHL defenseman. I countered with the facts that showed that he was in previous conversations. McAvoy is one of the top defenseman in the entire NHL and well worth his contract.

No, it wasn't a direct shot at Tortorella and his staff. It was a direct shot at the ridiculous opinion and excuse that Ristolainen just hasn't had the right coaches for 9 NHL seasons
- MJL

Since Risto was drafted in 2013 here are the coaches he worked with in Buffalo

Ralph Krueger 2021 (28 games actually)
Phil Housley 2018
Dan Bylsma 2016-2017
Ted Nolan 2014-2015
Ron Rolston 2013-2014

Then with the Flyers

John Tortorella 2023 (49 games)
Mike Yeo 2022 (60 games)
Alain Vigneault 2022 (22 games)

This really speaks for itself!

McAvoy is one of the top defenseman in the entire NHL and well worth his contract.
- MJL

The past two season no argument McAvoy is playing like a top defenseman. My argument was more about the contracts than the player. You know, I'm starting to think you are a closet Bruins fan. You wouldn't happen to have a lot of black and gold around, do you?

The past two season no argument McAvoy is playing like a top defenseman. My argument was more about the contracts than the player. You know, I'm starting to think you are a closet Bruins fan. You wouldn't happen to have a lot of black and gold around, do you?
- jd250

now now now

I didn't. Consider the source. What I have said in conversations concerning Frost was in consideration of what is his upside. I think his ceiling might be around 60 points. I don't think he is going to be a point per game or higher scorer but you never know. Of course that is quite different than expecting 60 points this season from Frost. One of the arguments that I have consitently made concerning Frost is that although he is older, in terms of games played, he is a second season NHL player. Expecting 60 points this season would be unrealistic.

They try as hard as they can.
- MJL

yes consider the source. you the man cliff.

60 points potential. My recollection was 60 points this season. Even if that wasn't the case 60 was in there somewhere cliff. as you just said, so not like it was made up now was it cliff?

omg

Bad players don’t see beyond a decade in the NHL. See Randy Jones and Andrew MacDonald.
- SuperSchennBros

andy macdonald was a legit top pair dman.

Since Risto was drafted in 2013 here are the coaches he worked with in Buffalo

Ralph Krueger 2021 (28 games actually)
Phil Housley 2018
Dan Bylsma 2016-2017
Ted Nolan 2014-2015
Ron Rolston 2013-2014

Then with the Flyers

John Tortorella 2023 (49 games)
Mike Yeo 2022 (60 games)
Alain Vigneault 2022 (22 games)

This really speaks for itself!
- jd250

It doesn't speak anything.

The past two season no argument McAvoy is playing like a top defenseman. My argument was more about the contracts than the player. You know, I'm starting to think you are a closet Bruins fan. You wouldn't happen to have a lot of black and gold around, do you?
- jd250

Top NHL defenseman who make a huge impact on the game for their teams are well worth the contracts they get. The rhetoric is not going to help.

It doesn't speak anything.
- MJL

At best that he’s damaged goods.

Making the same tired arguement of “he’s been in the league ten years and has always been bad” as if it’s impossible he can improve (even though he has) is ridiculous.

Jay Bouwmeester is the perfect example of an uneven career. All the potential in the world in Florida. Bad in Calgary. Key shutdown defenseman in St Louis, which saw him win a cup. I’m not at all suggesting Ristolainen is Jay Bouwmeester on any level but in the right situation, any player can see improvement.
- SuperSchennBros

The truth is he hasn’t been bad for 10 years…how does a guy play in the NHL for that long and be bad? He’s proven that he can produce points, 4 x a 40 plus point guy. Here’s a news flash, you don’t have zero hockey IQ, like some love to quote, and produce like that at this level….it just doesn’t happen.
As far as his time in Philly, I don’t think he’s been great. Last year I thought he was passable at times but saw a player that was under achieving and pressing. I also saw some games where by it was easy to see why they went and got himto be fair, but far to many times for my liking, and the coaching staff’s, he took him self out of the play to be physical.
As far as the extension I don’t think it was done necessarily based on his one year here. What contract is? The Flyers paid for a guy that was a minutes eater, physical player who could produce offence and move the puck….the guy from 3 years ago. As of today it looks like an over pay….right in line for what Fletcher has done since he’s been here ….over pay.
So what about this year? I think the new coaching staff sent the message early with his benching. They wanted him to focus more on his defensive play, as his gaffes hardly could make up any offence he was bringing. Of the last 10 games or so he looks like a guy who has started to put some really good games together….will it last ? I have no idea.
As far as his usage here I don’t see how he will live up to that contract. It’s also fair to argue that playing 17-18 minutes a night is where he belongs…he won’t produce points like he did in Buffalo, partly because he will not get time on the PP and he will never be the Flyers “go to guy” like he was in Buffalo. To me Fletcher should know full well that his fit here is not ideal….this is not a player you move that many assets for and pay that way if this is his role….which I don’t see changing.
Hopefully, with any luck Risto has a decent end to the season and whomever the GM is the summer find him a new home. His play the rest of the season will dictate if that will be even possible.

At best that he’s damaged goods.
- FlyerFan3260

Ristolainen had his best seasons under the Buffalo coaches he named. He has regressed as a Flyer. Yet, the logic is that Ristolainen never had the right coach until now.

So with the deadline in about a month. Whats the goal? Sell UFAs and just hope Fletcher doesn't spend other assets?

Tony Angelo puts up a lot of points and is a really good offensive defenseman. Defensively, without the puck, he completely lacks hockey sense with no awareness of positioning or the ability to read and anticipate plays.