The Flyers did not start the season with 2D in OT, that is a fact! Torts changed it about a 5-6 weeks ago and talked about in one of his pregame pressers.
- jd250

Tomahawk posted the facts.

Remember last Summer when right after they traded for Angelo, you argued viociferously with me that the Flyers would not be a cap team? Good times.
- MJL

No, I recall I and others argued that the Flyers have always been a spend to the cap team, that this is nothing new.

Tomahawk posted the facts.
- MJL

He posted individual times in OT, he did not post shift by shift analysis of each OT session which is the only fact that matters to this argument. For example in the first OT loss of the season on Oct 29th against the Hurricanes, when the Hurricanes scored in OT, the Flyer players on the ice were Farabee, Laughton and Provorov as you can see here. Case closed!

https://www.naturalstattr...eason=20222023&game=20130

I find he's regressed a lot in the new year. His defensive gaffes seem more frequent to me and always seem to end up in GA. Earlier in the year, I thought he was a little better and was producing more/moving the puck more effectively. Really struggling now.
- Hextall271

agree

Tomahawk posted the facts.
- MJL

It was Dec 9 in Vegas when this nonsense started.

I think it all comes down to Dave Scott and what he thinks he can sell to his fan base to make his revenue numbers. I personally believe the fan base is ready to hear and accept a rebuild, in fact I think they are begging for it. Any reasonable hockey fan can look at this team and say I don't want to invest my time or money in a team that I know is not going anywhere. However a team that is rebuilding and collecting assets that they can turn into potential top-end talent is something fans will invest in, I know I will. I'm not saying the Flyers need to rip it down to the studs because honestly they don't, the Flyers have good pieces here, players like Hart, TK and several younger players that are starting to develop nicely. They honestly just need to eat some salary and move out some veterans, bring up more young players and try to get into the top 5 of this draft. If they do that, fans will rejoice and next season the building will be banged out, I guarantee it.
- jd250

Where do they fit in the timeline? Both will need new contracts before they are contenders. You want to give both 8 years for big money when their current deals are up? Add in Ivan as well. Hell at some point they probably over pay to keep Frost and Tippet.

still to many people showing up they are down about 17% from 18-19

https://www.hockeydb.com/...ce/att_graph.php?tmi=7439

No, I recall I and others argued that the Flyers have always been a spend to the cap team, that this is nothing new.
- jd250

No, you did and told me I didn't understand the cap. You also told me that I didn't understand the metrics concerning Angelo and that he has cleaned up his defensive issues.

Agreed. His over all play has dropped. His play in his own end has been atrocious. Early on he seemed more confident….not so much now.
- landros 2

I wonder where he ideally slots on a decent team? 4, 5 or 6 Dman who specializes on the PP? You could never have him out there defending a lead late in a playoff game.. holy God.. He's better than yandle but not a top 3 guy..

Where do they fit in the timeline? Both will need new contracts before they are contenders. You want to give both 8 years for big money when their current deals are up? Add in Ivan as well. Hell at some point they probably over pay to keep Frost and Tippet.
- hello it's me 2050

This is why its imperative that just getting JVR off the books is not enough. The Flyers will need to move Hayes and most likely Provorov. DeAngelo is also likely to be moved at some point next season. You don't have to worry about TK yet and Hart is next off-season. This off-season the Flyers will probably resign Frost and Cates, but I don't expect neither will get more than a bridge deal at about $2-$3M per. Also the cap will go up this off-season which will give the Flyers a bit more breathing room. The one advantage the Flyers have is they have young players that can come up on ELCs and fill in the roster, they don't need to be active in FA this off-season. That is if Dave Scott finally is willing to use the word rebuild!

He posted individual times in OT, he did not post shift by shift analysis of each OT session which is the only fact that matters to this argument. For example in the first OT loss of the season on Oct 29th against the Hurricanes, when the Hurricanes scored in OT, the Flyer players on the ice were Farabee, Laughton and Provorov as you can see here. Case closed!

https://www.naturalstattr...eason=20222023&game=20130
- jd250

Another person who thinks that one shift overrules the larger sample size. If the statement was made that Tortorella never has used two forwards in OT, then you would have a point. Defenseman can't rank that high in OT ice time with only one defenseman playing per shift.

Where do they fit in the timeline? Both will need new contracts before they are contenders. You want to give both 8 years for big money when their current deals are up? Add in Ivan as well. Hell at some point they probably over pay to keep Frost and Tippet.
- hello it's me 2050

I still believe Provy is as good as gone. Maybe not at the TDL, but at the draft. There's no way Comcast wanted that bad publicity he recently brought them. They don't care about icing a competitive team for passionate fans. Money and ensuring they reflect well on the mothership company is what matters..

Zero chance for a buyout. He plays 23 minutes a night!!!
- hello it's me 2050

You are closer to right than I am. CF is a bozo.

still to many people showing up they are down about 17% from 18-19

https://www.hockeydb.com/...ce/att_graph.php?tmi=7439
- corduroy

tickets sold, not assess in seats but its still too many spending money on them

No, you did and told me I didn't understand the cap. You also told me that I didn't understand the metrics concerning Angelo and that he has cleaned up his defensive issues.
- MJL

DeAngelo was a +30 last season, and that could not have been totally due to playing with Slavin, it was due to the quality of team he was playing with. I thought he had got better defensively and he stated he was working hard on that part of his game. Apparently, he was not working hard enough. The problem is you can't ask DeAngelo to do what Risto did this season, because we saw with Risto it completely stifled his offense for a significant period. Maybe the answer is pair DeAngelo with Risto and bring Braun back into the lineup to play with Sanheim.

This is why its imperative that just getting JVR off the books is not enough. The Flyers will need to move Hayes and most likely Provorov. DeAngelo is also likely to be moved at some point next season. You don't have to worry about TK yet and Hart is next off-season. This off-season the Flyers will probably resign Frost and Cates, but I don't expect neither will get more than a bridge deal at about $2-$3M per. Also the cap will go up this off-season which will give the Flyers a bit more breathing room. The one advantage the Flyers have is they have young players that can come up on ELCs and fill in the roster, they don't need to be active in FA this off-season. That is if Dave Scott finally is willing to use the word rebuild!
- jd250

good run organizations do worry about it and think ahead.

Hopefully they re-sign JVR.

Toronto only rotates their 4 elite forwards at 3v3, so they throw out 2D from time to time when they don't have possession:

Matthews 12:07
Marner 8:49
Nylander 8:19
Tavares 8:15
Rielly 6:36
Sandin 5:09


Torts has been running 2D exclusively for most of the season:

DeAngelo 11:28
Konecny 9:18
Sanheim 9:04
Hayes 8:24
Provorov: 7:19
Tippett: 5:24


There's no other team in the league with three D in their top-6 TOI. It would be one thing if the approach was working, but it's failing terribly. Yet Torts keeps doing it while Frost and Farabee mostly sit on the bench.
- Tomahawk

Allison has looked great recently, but hasn't got to play a second in OT.

Another person who thinks that one shift overrules the larger sample size. If the statement was made that Tortorella never has used two forwards in OT, then you would have a point. Defenseman can't rank that high in OT ice time with only one defenseman playing per shift.
- MJL

That's right, clearly the past 3 OTs Torts has gone with 2D, I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is against the statement that Torts has been doing this all season, because that is simply not true.

Zero chance for a buyout. He plays 23 minutes a night!!!
- hello it's me 2050

If he was on the last year of this deal, yes, they could move him. I don't think another team wants the 5 mil hit for a 4,5, 6 dman.

Allison has looked great recently, but hasn't got to play a second in OT.
- Feanor

I'm glad he came back in the game last night but he did not look himself, he was skating and playing squimishly after the knee on knee which I guess I don't fault him for doing. I honestly would sit him the next game just to be sure his knee is OK.

DeAngelo was a +30 last season, and that could not have been totally due to playing with Slavin, it was due to the quality of team he was playing with. I thought he had got better defensively and he stated he was working hard on that part of his game. Apparently, he was not working hard enough. The problem is you can't ask DeAngelo to do what Risto did this season, because we saw with Risto it completely stifled his offense for a significant period. Maybe the answer is pair DeAngelo with Risto and bring Braun back into the lineup to play with Sanheim.
- jd250

We'll be saved when Ellis returns for a 4 game stint before getting reinjured 3 years from now

DeAngelo was a +30 last season, and that could not have been totally due to playing with Slavin, it was due to the quality of team he was playing with. I thought he had got better defensively and he stated he was working hard on that part of his game. Apparently, he was not working hard enough. The problem is you can't ask DeAngelo to do what Risto did this season, because we saw with Risto it completely stifled his offense for a significant period. Maybe the answer is pair DeAngelo with Risto and bring Braun back into the lineup to play with Sanheim.
- jd250

It was due to 3 factors. How good of a overall defenseman that Slavin is. Canes are a strong possession and defensive team and Angelo's offensive ability. They could hid his deficiencies in Carolina. This was predicted to you by many including myself as you argued that Angelo was improving defensively. Tomahawk even predicted to you in the few days after the trade that you would continue to push that he is better defensively until it reaches a point where it becomes undeniable.
Do you honestly believe that Ristolainen purposely stifled his offense?

That's right, clearly the past 3 OTs Torts has gone with 2D, I am not arguing that. What I am arguing is against the statement that Torts has been doing this all season, because that is simply not true.
- jd250

Just the past 3 OT's? The statement is that he has been doing it for most of the season.

Allison has looked great recently, but hasn't got to play a second in OT.
- Feanor

Too much East-West, not enough North-South. For some reason Torts turns into Magellan whenever he's asked about Allison.

still to many people showing up they are down about 17% from 18-19

https://www.hockeydb.com/...ce/att_graph.php?tmi=7439
- corduroy

The Tortorella "effect" sold some tickets. Yahoo Yeo and a penslike megatank would have been the right move for a "winning" no nomansland future.