It isn't about giving Ristolainen a chance. But just to address that, if you go back to the conversations that off season, I posted numerous times that although I hated the deal, I was willing to have an open mind to see of Ristolainen could improve on a new team. Now that we've got that nonsense out of the way, we can deal with the issue. The issue is that you again act like you knew all along that they gave up too much. When in fact you praised the move. Again, it's the equivalent of predicting the winner of the race after the race is over. Along with the lack of self realization of how wrong you had it.

As far as the latter nonsense you offered, we can look at almost every debate you and I have had and see who was right and who was wrong. With rare exceptions, you've been wrong on everything.
You claim here that I automatically label everything the Flyers do is wrong. Who told you that the return for Giroux was a good return? LOL

To finish it off, the lack of introspect of someone who is pretty much wrong on everything to tell someone that they're not an expert and to learn from them. Well that's just sad.
- MJL

I don’t think you’ve ever been open to Risto improving. Even when he has played well, you’ve given little to no credit.

I know exactly what kind of player Greenway is. 3 million isn't a hard contract to move in todays NHL at all. In my opinion, he's more than worth taking a flyer on if all your giving up is a guy you wont be resigning anyway.

He was averaging close to 10 goals and 30 points before having off-season surgery. He missed training camp and was back on IR after 1 game. He's only "struggling" because he hasn't been able to consistently stay on the ice. It seems to me you just looked at Greenways stats on the season and just assumed he regressed...?

3 million a season for a 26 year old with double digit goal and 30+ point potential who also plays physical is absolutely, positively, under no circumstances an overpayment.
- mochoson

Read this and then tell me you're still interested:
https://www.dailyfaceoff....dline-reclamation-project

Very weird and puzzling.
- MJL

Sakic was in managment for 2 years before being made Executive Vice President of Hockey operations for the Avs.

Yzerman was in managment for 4 years before accepting the GM job with the Lighting.

Guerin was a player development coach for 3 years, than an assistant GM for 4 years, before being made the Wild GM.

Truly "weird and puzzling". Even more weird and puzzling that Danny Briere is essentially following the same trajectory.

Yikes. Yeah, I think that's quite unfair and this is clearly where we differ.



Well then I guess I'm just more of a realist than you. Until Comcast sells this team, you're never going to see such a hire.

The Flyers love hiring former players and "company/culture" guys. If my choice is between career management types like Fletcher or guys who actually played the game like Danny Briere, it's a no brainer.

Let me phrase it this way: if the only quality truly required for being the Flyers GM is towing the line and following the vision Comcast has for the team every year, at least give me someone who's actually played the game at a high level. If both guys are effectively just "yes men", at least give me the "yes man" who can occasionally contribute and speak on his own experiences as a player. Chuck and career management types like him have nothing to contribute in such conversations.
- mochoson

You're changing the conversation. From if Briere would be a great GM to settling for him because you don't think that Comcast would bring in an outsider. Nothing you've offered in rebuttal supports that Briere would make a great GM. I don't see how you've supported that opinion in any way.

I've stated that myself several times in my post so not sure what's so funny...?

Since you seem confused, we're talking about the Flyers being compensated with a 2nd or 3rd round pick for sending back JVR at 3.5m instead of 7mil.

I'm saying that makes absolutely no sense because the Wild don't need the Flyers to eat any of JVR's cap space, because they have more than enough space to fit him in through the end of season.

The Wild are dumb if they offer that high of a pick AND Greenway for JVR. They should just keep Greenway at that point and hope he rebounds from his injury. They're cap situation isn't bad at all.
- mochoson

It's funny because you tried to claim that Gostisbehre was different because he had term on his contract. Trust me, I'm not at all confused.

I don't think they will, I think they will put him in because that is their plan, they will give him years, we will see what he is really like year 1. I tend to be practical, wishing for what I want to happen is a waste of time, you might as well deal in what will most likely happen.
- wcorvette

I understand that but that doesn't mean that I have to be accepting of the approach.

Sakic was in managment for 2 years before being made Executive Vice President of Hockey operations for the Avs.

Yzerman was in managment for 4 years before accepting the GM job with the Lighting.

Guerin was a player development coach for 3 years, than an assistant GM for 4 years, before being made the Wild GM.

Truly "weird and puzzling". Even more weird and puzzling that Danny Briere is essentially following the same trajectory.
- mochoson

How does posting the experience base of Sakic and Yzerman justify implying that Guerin is a great GM?

Briere is basically an intern for the Flyers. What were the titles that Yzerman and Sakic held before becoming GM?

noise about Hayes being moved, holding salary, better not just be a dump, rather keep him than hold 50% and get nothing in return

https://www.inquirer.com/...yk-deangelo-20230227.html

“I wonder about Tony DeAngelo, too,” Friedman said. “The tough thing about DeAngelo is it’s not working this year, but they gave up a lot to get him. I think they’ve had interest on DeAngelo; one of the teams I’ve wondered about is Carolina possibly reacquiring him.”

Trading DeAngelo just 60 or so games in, after the team was willing to overlook his off-ice baggage, trade three picks, and commit $10 million to the defenseman, would certainly be an admission of guilt by the organization. That said, DeAngelo has been a liability defensively as expected and Tortorella has said as much. While the deal was a mistake in the first place, admitting wrongdoing and recouping some picks would be a positive step.

------------------------

I can't imagine Carolina is willing to trade for him back unless the Flyers retain 50% of his salary and are only asking for a 7th but we shall see. The TDA trade was a slow motion car wreck that anyone could see from the beginning from a GM who was still pushing the reload narrative. The other part of this would be Fletcher admitting guilt ... on anything.

The way things are going it's looking like Tortorella will handle all the announcements for the rest of the year. Fletch is hiding up in the C suite.
- Flyers_01

You guys retaining salary and trading DeAngelo back to Carolina for a late pick would be very funny but I don't see it happening.

Friedman clarified in his very next line that he didn't think it would actually happen.

noise about Hayes being moved, holding salary, better not just be a dump, rather keep him than hold 50% and get nothing in return
- wcorvette

If you're retaining on Hayes you'll get something decent back.

Read this and then tell me you're still interested:
https://www.dailyfaceoff....dline-reclamation-project
- Tomahawk

This didn't tell me anything I don't already know and doesn't mention his injury at all.

It's hard to get into a groove mid-season after missing training camp and then being in and out of the lineup. It's even harder when your team is in the playoff hunt and there's no room for error from your coaches.

He was consistently scoring at around ~35 point pace the last 3 years. The potential reward definitely out-weighs the risk IMO. If he was 29-30 years old I'd be less interested but he won't even be that old when his deal is up.

It's funny because you tried to claim that Gostisbehre was different because he had term on his contract. Trust me, I'm not at all confused.
- MJL

I will concede here because after going back I misread Mickel's comment. He was talking about not taking on Greenway unless you get a pick back, where as I was focused on JVR's contract.

This didn't tell me anything I don't already know and doesn't mention his injury at all.

It's hard to get into a groove mid-season after missing training camp and then being in and out of the lineup. It's even harder when your team is in the playoff hunt and there's no room for error from your coaches.

He was consistently scoring at around ~35 point pace the last 3 years. The potential reward definitely out-weighs the risk IMO. If he was 29-30 years old I'd be less interested but he won't even be that old when his deal is up.
- mochoson

So you're aware that Greenway is not a good skater, has an identity crisis of not knowing what kind of player he is at 26. Lacks the ability to get to scoring areas. His shot is below average and lacks accuracy and he is slow to get his shot off. Which means he needs time to get a shot off making him easy to defend. He's also not a playmaker.

So tell me what makes you believe he would be a great get for JVR at 3M a year for two more years?

It isn't about giving Ristolainen a chance. But just to address that, if you go back to the conversations that off season, I posted numerous times that although I hated the deal, I was willing to have an open mind to see of Ristolainen could improve on a new team. Now that we've got that nonsense out of the way, we can deal with the issue. The issue is that you again act like you knew all along that they gave up too much. When in fact you praised the move. Again, it's the equivalent of predicting the winner of the race after the race is over. Along with the lack of self realization of how wrong you had it.

As far as the latter nonsense you offered, we can look at almost every debate you and I have had and see who was right and who was wrong. With rare exceptions, you've been wrong on everything.
You claim here that I automatically label everything the Flyers do is wrong. Who told you that the return for Giroux was a good return? LOL

To finish it off, the lack of introspect of someone who is pretty much wrong on everything to tell someone that they're not an expert and to learn from them. Well that's just sad.
- MJL

First of all, you and others on this forum where vehemently against the Flyers getting Risto on the grounds that his advanced metrics were very poor for multiple seasons in Buffalo. I argued that those metrics were misleading because Risto played for very bad teams and in general most of these metrics are flawed when it comes to truly rating an individual player's impact to the team. I correctly stated it then and I am stating it now. But don't take my word for it, many real NHL head coaches state the exact same thing including Torts multiple times this year, specifically that most of the advanced metrics are crap! Risto came into Philly and within 22 games of his first season the head coach is fired and replaced by Mike Yeo, who you yourself has said is a vey poor NHL coach. But your bashing of Risto continued. Even this year when its crystal clear to anyone who has any knowledge of the sport that Risto has had a good year so far, you still bash him any chance yo get. Sorry, I don't call that giving the player a legitimate chance to succeed.

Back when Fletcher traded Risto, I did not think Fletcher gave up a lot to get him; the 14th pick in a weak and Covid-clouded draft, a 2nd this year (which I actually think is more valuable than the 1st) and Robert Haag. When I say Fletcher paid a high price to get Risto, I am referring to the trade but also the he extended Risto to the tune of $25M over 5 years; that clearly was an overpay that I don't believe ANY other NHL team would have done for the player. I did praise the move at the time, because at the time AV was the coach and Risto was not extended for 5 more years. However today, seeing what has happened to the team and seeing what kind of player Risto is, I can clearly state the Flyers have overpaid for Risto. You like to sit on your high horse and say you knew it all along, but you had no idea. The only thing I will give you credit for is you have disliked Fletcher from the very beginning and now after we have seen what Fletcher has done 4 years later, that dislike is well justified.

Regarding Giroux, you had NO idea that Giroux only wanted to go to Florida and that it had been leaked. No one knew that until days after the trade was made. Clearly if Fletcher was able to get 3 teams involved in the Giroux trade, the return would have been much closer to what I expected than to what you expected. You just lucked into it because of what Giroux did behind the scenes. Now you want to act like you knew it all along ... can't make it up!

noise about Hayes being moved, holding salary, better not just be a dump, rather keep him than hold 50% and get nothing in return
- wcorvette

Hayes is a good NHL player. Not a great one or a star but he is a solid 2 way player with some size and hockey IQ. He can slide throughout the middle 6 and would be a plus for maybe Carolina and Colorado. Fletcher would be well-served to not give him away. Hayes should be a hockey trade and the more salary retained the greater the return should be.

This didn't tell me anything I don't already know and doesn't mention his injury at all.

It's hard to get into a groove mid-season after missing training camp and then being in and out of the lineup. It's even harder when your team is in the playoff hunt and there's no room for error from your coaches.

He was consistently scoring at around ~35 point pace the last 3 years. The potential reward definitely out-weighs the risk IMO. If he was 29-30 years old I'd be less interested but he won't even be that old when his deal is up.
- mochoson

Let's say we throw this season and the injury out completely... this is Greenway between 19-20 and 21-22:



Keep in mind he played most of that time w/ Eriksson Ek in a top-six role, and whenever he was moved away from JEE his production became pretty much zero.

Who's gonna center him on the Flyers? Noah Cates? Pat Brown? Laughton? You think he's gonna be able to sponge 20 assists off those guys the way he did w/ JEE and Foligno?

How does posting the experience base of Sakic and Yzerman justify implying that Guerin is a great GM?

Briere is basically an intern for the Flyers. What were the titles that Yzerman and Sakic held before becoming GM?
- MJL

I mean I already pointed out the obvious that they've finished no 3rd than lower in their division since hiring him the last year they missed the playoffs. I don't know what else a GM is supposed to do other than help them compete every year? Does he need to win a cup like Yzerman and Sakic to be a "good GM"? How about you tell me what a "good GM" is?

You've completely ignored this entire time my general premise, which isn't hard to understand at all.

If my options are a career business man or another nepotism hire who just bounces around between "managing" teams or a former player whos being groomed to learn how to be a be a manger, I choose the latter.

You say you want an outsider and I'm telling you Briere is the closest thing you'll get to an "outsider" (not a career suit) as long as Comcast runs this team.

But I get it: no more former players or company guys for you. You've made that vehemently clear despite it not being realistic whatsoever.

I understand that but that doesn't mean that I have to be accepting of the approach.
- MJL

sure doesn't

So you're aware that Greenway is not a good skater, has an identity crisis of not knowing what kind of player he is at 26. Lacks the ability to get to scoring areas. His shot is below average and lacks accuracy and he is slow to get his shot off. Which means he needs time to get a shot off making him easy to defend. He's also not a playmaker.

So tell me what makes you believe he would be a great get for JVR at 3M a year for two more years?
- MJL

I find it amusing that the same guy who insists Guerin is a shining example of a good GM is also claiming that a player Guerin decided the Wild are better off without is gonna be some diamond in the rough that the Flyers can sucker them out of.

Read this and then tell me you're still interested:
https://www.dailyfaceoff....dline-reclamation-project
- Tomahawk

Here's my thoughts on Greenway: First, we need to get something in return for JVR. In return, we want to get as high a pick as possible. If taking on Greenway gets us a 2nd, then we have to consider the future of Greenway as a Flyer. He's at $3M and is a reclamation project. If they take him, and he doesn't work out, waive him and stick him on the Phantoms as a heavy. If they take him and he works out whatever health issue may be nagging him, fine. The end benefit is a 2nd for a guy that is not coming back anyway which is more than the Flyers could have gotten without taking a small risk on Greenway.

That's my take. I could be wrong.

Who's gonna center him on the Flyers? Noah Cates? Pat Brown? Laughton? You think he's gonna be able to sponge 20 assists off those guys the way he did w/ JEE and Foligno?
- Tomahawk

I don't need an info graph to explain the stats of a 6'6 power forward whos not a great skater. You need to have realistic expectations for a player. But yes, I think Greenway could be a solid 3rd or 4th liner on this team who can play up a line at times if needed.

I'd much rather put Jordan Greenway net front on a powerplay than RASMUS (frank)ING RISTOLAINEN.

Just a reminder that there's no leash for posts that break the CoC on deadline day. People will just get a time out and you can enjoy the discussion from the sidelines.
- Aaron_85

Is that site wide or just Bill's blog? Thanks

Flyers trade rumors: Market 'heating up' for Kevin Hayes. Carolina, Colorado, and Minnesota are believed to have been in contact, per the Daily Faceoff, and the Flyers would be willing to retain some salary in a potential deal.

Oh please, please please make this happen. I will never ever disagree with MJL again if Fletcher can actually pull this off! Well actually, I was the first to report that there was a legitimate market for Hayes if the Flyers covered salary, and clearly there is! Oh well, guess I might be right again!

I find it amusing that the same guy who insists Guerin is a shining example of a good GM is also claiming that a player Guerin decided the Wild are better off without is gonna be some diamond in the rough.
- Tomahawk

I literally have said nothing other than I think Greenway can re-bound and be a solid 3rd line, 30ish point physical winger again.

Reward outweighs risk is all I said. I never said he was the 2nd coming of Wayne Simmonds and future 30 goal scorer.

So if you find putting words in my mouth amusing, laugh away I guess.

noise about Hayes being moved, holding salary, better not just be a dump, rather keep him than hold 50% and get nothing in return
- wcorvette

Torts is now running the show. If he wants him gone then that's what will likely happen for better or worse