Klatt was an average skater during his era. Today, that’s slow. Heck Guy Lafleur, a pure speedster in his era, would be an average skater at best today. NHL players, on average, are much faster than they were even 25 years ago.
- BiggE

Bure used to just blow by dudes like they were stationary in the 90's... and I suspect he might not even be among the fastest players today. McDavid would have just clowned on the league in previous eras.

He is known to be a strong two way player. I don't know what a shut down guy is.
- MJL

😂 he’s the guy that they want against top lines , the semantics with you is honestly pathetic man.

Bure used to just blow by dudes like they were stationary in the 90's... and I suspect he might not even be among the fastest players today. McDavid would have just clowned on the league in previous eras.
- Tomahawk

Comparing eras like this should just not be talked about. Totally different circumstances

😂 he’s the guy that they want against top lines , the semantics with you is honestly pathetic man.
- ClaudeFather

LOL, it's not semantics. Teams don't match up like that much anymore. They match power against power. They'll use players situationally on occasion but for the most part, it's power against power. Think about it. What lines play the most? The top lines. So if you want to match up a lower line and a "shut down" guy against the top line. You're limiting the ice time and opportunity for your own top line. The league has changed people and none of this is new.

Comparing eras like this should just not be talked about. Totally different circumstances
- ClaudeFather

It's relevant to the conversation and how others are stuck in old school mindsets.

Still banging that drum, huh? OK, let's start with this.
- bmeltzer

Comparing eras like this should just not be talked about. Totally different circumstances
- ClaudeFather

This was partially in response to:

Do you think a Podein/Otto/Klatt line would be successful in today's game?
- furio16

Foerster NHL debut tonight.

LOL, it's not semantics. Teams don't match up like that much anymore. They match power against power. They'll use players situationally on occasion but for the most part, it's power against power. Think about it. What lines play the most? The top lines. So if you want to match up a lower line and a "shut down" guy against the top line. You're limiting the ice time and opportunity for your own top line. The league has changed people and none of this is new.
- MJL

Top line player with a career high points of 44, so let me ask you. Why do you think he plays so much? He has 21 points this season but when the playoffs roll around he will be going toe to toe with Matthews, so tell me why he isn’t labeled their shutdown guy

Another top 5 finish is within reach. Sandstrom needs to get more games

Top line player with a career high points of 44, so let me ask you. Why do you think he plays so much? He has 21 points this season but when the playoffs roll around he will be going toe to toe with Matthews, so tell me why he isn’t labeled their shutdown guy
- ClaudeFather

44 points for a lower line player is really good. Tell me, how much PP time does Cirelli get? That would be 35 seconds a game. Cirelli has only played 41 games this season. This is the same thing when Couturier was playing on lower lines and scoring at a 2nd line level and he was labeled as a 3rd line center who would never be anything more. I guarantee that plenty of other players on TB will see action against Matthews. Plus other top scoring players on Toronto if they meet up in the playoffs. My opinion is the label of "shutdown guy" is archaic and doesn't exist anymore. Same way a "checking line" doesn't exist anymore.

Bure used to just blow by dudes like they were stationary in the 90's... and I suspect he might not even be among the fastest players today. McDavid would have just clowned on the league in previous eras.
- Tomahawk

McDavid would be great in any era. I would be interested to see how he would have fared in the clutch and grab era when Lindros was king.

As for Lindros, I would love to see how he would produce in today's game with so much more space and the "water skiing" rules eliminated.

44 points for a lower line player is really good. Tell me, how much PP time does Cirelli get? This is the same thing when Couturier was playing on lower lines and scoring at a 2nd line level and he was labeled as a 3rd line center who would never be anything more. I guarantee that plenty of other players on TB will see action against Matthews. Plus other top scoring players on Toronto if they meet up in the playoffs. My opinion is the label of "shutdown guy" is archaic and doesn't exist anymore. Same way a "checking line" doesn't exist anymore.
- MJL

It’s obviously impossible to get an exact line for line matchup buddy, he will see the majority of the ice against Toronto top line because he is an elite defensive forward and they deploy him as so

Completely echoes what posters such as me and Tomahawk and a few others have been saying. Trying to educate others but it falls on deaf ears. Maybe this will sink in.
- MJL

Don't hold your breath

Foerster NHL debut tonight.
- PLindbergh31

playing on the 4th line with claude and nd?

Still banging that drum, huh? OK, let's start with this.

1) Frost has been involved directly in 54 high-danger scoring chances for the Flyers this season. On the Flyers, he's behind only Konecny (55, albeit in 11 fewer games due to injury). Cates is sixth among the forwards with 40.

2) In terms of puck distribution, let's just look at the last five games. Among the Flyers' total 58 high-danger chances in that span, Frost had assist opportunities on 10 and his own goal opportunity on four; 24.1 percent team wide directly involved Frost. Only frequent linemate Tippett (nine goal opportunities, seven assist opportunities, 27.6 percent) was in the middle of a higher-volume of chances. Cates has been involved on the setup end of three and the shooting end of three (10.3 percent).

Now, with this being said, Frost only has 3 points (1g, 2a) to show for the five-game sampling as does Tippett (2g, 1a). Cates has one point (1g, 0a) and it came as a result of a nice deflection on a play that was not judged to be high-danger.

Broken out over the whole season, based on high-danger chances with direct involvement, Frost should be at about 30 to 33 assists. The Flyers' struggles to finish chances have pulled his assist totals down quite a bit based on NHL averages of points to scoring chances. Frost himself isn't finishing chances frequently enough, but we're talking assists here.

Cates is a very different type of player than Frost, even with them both playing center but the eye test alone suggests that Frost is the significantly better distributor, and the numbers back it up. Cates is, however, the better 200-foot player. Cates gets tougher opposition, which also has to be factored in.

3) For the season, Frost has created 23 rebound opportunities; tied with Hayes for the most on the Flyers. Cates suffers here because he's a low-volume shooter when he plays center. He's created 14.

4) For a 10-game period in late October to mid November, Tortorella was deploying Frost a mere 11:23 per game (18th on the team, and less than the likes of Lukas Sedlak, Max Willman, a full two minutes less per game than Zack MacEwen, but about 45 seconds per game more than Wade Allison).

During this stretch, Frost's most frequent linemates were Nic Deslauriers, MacEwen, Tanner Laczynski and, after his waiver claim, Bellows. He did see a little bit of time with JVR, Tippett or Farabee but not much relative to his norms thereafter.

This segment of the season was Frost's most unproductive (0g, 1a) and overlaps the game he was scratched in his hometown Toronto with his parents in the stands. A player is responsible, first and foremost, for his own play. But it's also the coach's responsibility to put players in position to succeed. Torts was absolutely NOT doing that during this stretch. In fact, he was putting Frost in position to fail and, at the same time, saying things like "people are telling me this guy is an offense creator but I'm not seeing it."

I'll add to that, though, that from December onwards, Frost's usage and linemates have been much more appropriate deployment. Over the Flyers last 36 games, he's third in the team in scoring (one point ahead of Tippett, 24 to 23). That's OK -- far from great -- but it's the start of getting on the right track.

I like Cates a lot, too. I like him as a 3C. I'd still like him even better as a winger and F1 who can be moved around the top 9 as needed. But if you are seriously trying to say Cates and Frost are comparable as offense creators at center, you are way off-base.
- bmeltzer

Boom

I will add, they are both in their first full season, they will get better, they will learn how to take more time with the puck, make better passes, better shots and better decisions. You can expect them to improve on the areas you wrote above, like TK has over the years. Then you can add in talent, Frost should excel in that category.

All assuming they put in the work and the Flyers don't stunt their growth or trade them to soon.

This was partially in response to:




- Tomahawk

Wasn’t directed at you lol more so the conversation

McDavid would be great in any era. I would be interested to see how he would have fared in the clutch and grab era when Lindros was king.

As for Lindros, I would love to see how he would produce in today's game with so much more space and the "water skiing" rules eliminated.
- MBFlyerfan

My dad and I discussed this when I was up last weekend, would be amazing to see Lindros with open ice and no head shots

playing on the 4th line with claude and nd?
- corduroy

Desnoyers was recalled as well.

I have been very complimentary of Torts this season but I have to fair and criticize him now. I thought it was despicable of him to not acknowledge that Tony DeAngelo crossed the line with that spear to the groin. He deferred to what his players told me but stated he didn't see it, even though they have a video review console build in right there at the bench! Torts clearly saw what happened but instead decided to laud DeAngelo's compete level and take a shot at Farabee and Sanheim instead for their apparent lack of compete level. It just wasn't a good look. Yes I want all the Flyers to have an above average compete level, but not to the extent that they are spearing opposing players in the balls!

McDavid would be great in any era. I would be interested to see how he would have fared in the clutch and grab era when Lindros was king.

As for Lindros, I would love to see how he would produce in today's game with so much more space and the "water skiing" rules eliminated.
- MBFlyerfan

Eric would be unstoppable. Their is no one who would be able to handle him. He would have his way.

I have been very complimentary of Torts this season but I have to fair and criticize him now. I thought it was despicable of him to not acknowledge that Tony DeAngelo crossed the line with that spear to the groin. He deferred to what his players told me but stated he didn't see it, even though they have a video review console build in right there at the bench! Torts clearly saw what happened but instead decided to laud DeAngelo's compete level and take a shot at Farabee and Sanheim instead for their apparent lack of compete level. It just wasn't a good look. Yes I want all the Flyers to have an above average compete level, but not to the extent that they are spearing opposing players in the balls!
- jd250

I have been very complimentary of Torts this season but I have to fair and criticize him now. I thought it was despicable of him to not acknowledge that Tony DeAngelo crossed the line with that spear to the groin. He deferred to what his players told me but stated he didn't see it, even though they have a video review console build in right there at the bench! Torts clearly saw what happened but instead decided to laud DeAngelo's compete level and take a shot at Farabee and Sanheim instead for their apparent lack of compete level. It just wasn't a good look. Yes I want all the Flyers to have an above average compete level, but not to the extent that they are spearing opposing players in the balls!
- jd250

this response will cost him the Jack Adams award

It’s obviously impossible to get an exact line for line matchup buddy, he will see the majority of the ice against Toronto top line because he is an elite defensive forward and they deploy him as so
- ClaudeFather

Which line is Toronto's top line? They have Marner, Taveras, Matthews and Nylander. They don't all play together. Marner and Nylander are their top scorers. Cirelli will see his share of icetime against all of those players. As will Kucherov, Point, Stamkos. etc. It's about a mindset and an understanding of what modern day NHL hockey is.

Still banging that drum, huh? OK, let's start with this.


I like Cates a lot, too. I like him as a 3C. I'd still like him even better as a winger and F1 who can be moved around the top 9 as needed. But if you are seriously trying to say Cates and Frost are comparable as offense creators at center, you are way off-base.
- bmeltzer

Right now, yes, Cates does not have the offensive skills that Frost has. But that is not the point of this discussion! The statement was posted that Cates does not have the skill to be an NHL center, from the same person that has been pushing how great Frost is. My only point here is Cates has NEVER played center at any comparable level before the start of this season, and production wise he is comparable to Frost and has been consistent throughout the season, in fact I think he has been getting as the season has gone along. IMO Cates has to work on his faceoffs, which BTW Frost is not good at either, but other than that, Cates is showing he does have the IQ and skill to be a strong 3C in the NHL. This is not about Frost and how the coaches are screwing him and his line mates are holding him back. This is strictly about what Cates has shown this season at center.