No he doesn't. That's why he is on Torts' favored list while Frost remains on the bubble. This entire year is about who stays and who goes. Torts was brought in to eradicate the room from the country club atmosphere that has haunted this team for 10 years. I have no problem with Torts wanting his players to care and be competitive every night. Cates brings it every night and Frost doesn't. Frost is the more talented player, but that doesn't make him the BETTER player.

- Phillywhiteout

This!

Still, not really that different. Remember, Cates had NEVER played center before this season. The fact that he is even close to Frost is a testament of how good a player he is.
- jd250

Its significantly different. Lol. Cates scoring rate is pedestrian and one of the worst in the league for a center who plays his amount of minutes.

Do you realize what you just said? Probably not. If Cates is a good player for being close to Frost, then what kind of player is Frost?

For the record. I like Cates a lot as a player. His scoring issues are on the coach for misusing him.

Ristolainen has not improved. He actually has regressed. He's actually a 3rd pair defenseman in this league. That's my opinion. Or should I say " in fact". Ristolainen has never been steady in his entire career, including now..The only thing they've done with Ristolainen,.is they locked him in a defensive box to prevent him from playing stupid. Its.equivalent to throwing an addict in jail and saying, hey we cured his addiction.
- MJL

Wow, an interesting opinion. Of course your opinion here does not in any way match the opinion of the Flyers coaches, management or even the players, who all, at one time or another have testified how much they love playing with Risto. It sounds to me you just will not give the player any credit at all. Nope, Torts has just put chains around Risto's ankles and wrists to stop him from doing anything stupid. Yes .. I'm sure that's what it is ...

You exhaust me with all your stats. I'm guessing you're a big baseball fan? I watch the games. I notice Cates more than I do Frost. Cates seems to be much more positionally sound and has a higher hockey IQ (especially on the defensive end of the ice). Frost is getting more ice time now because of TK being out injured and so on. Cates also wins many more puck battles than Frost and can handle himself in the trenches better. Cates goes to the dirty areas.....does Frost? Cates looks like a perfect 3rd line center or checking winger since you say there aren't checking lines anymore (I don't agree with that sentiment). I honestly still don't know where Frost fits in an NHL lineup? I guess 3rd line center would be my guess, but that wouldn't be a checking line. He is not a top 6 forward in the NHL as of this writing IMO.
- Phillywhiteout

You've followed up with more of your observations again. Such as you notice Cates more than Frost. My last post established with facts that your observations are not reliable.

NHL teams don't view a 3rd line as a checking line. At least not the good teams. That's archaic.

Its significantly different. Lol. Cates scoring rate is pedestrian and one of the worst in the league for a center who plays his amount of minutes.

Do you realize what you just said? Probably not. If Cates is a good player for being close to Frost, then what kind of player is Frost?

For the record. I like Cates a lot as a player. His scoring issues are on the coach for misusing him.
- MJL

One thing to also consider is Cates has never played this many games in a season before. While most rookies tend to decline after the all-star break, Cates has been astonishingly consistent each and every game. I really can't say the same for Frost, though I do acknowledge he is playing better now than I think at any time in his Flyers career. I like Cates too. My only point here is if you believe that Frost has the skills to be a good center in this league, then just based on what you seen from Cates this year, you have to feel the same way about Cates also.

You've followed up with more of your observations again. Such as you notice Cates more than Frost. My last post established with facts that your observations are not reliable.

NHL teams don't view a 3rd line as a checking line. At least not the good teams. That's archaic.
- MJL

It is archaic. Torts expects all his forward lines to be checking lines

Wow, an interesting opinion. Of course your opinion here does not in any way match the opinion of the Flyers coaches, management or even the players, who all, at one time or another have testified how much they love playing with Risto. It sounds to me you just will not give the player any credit at all. Nope, Torts has just put chains around Risto's ankles and wrists to stop him from doing anything stupid. Yes .. I'm sure that's what it is ...
- jd250

Honestly, is that it? Anecdotal evidence that teammates have testified that they love playing with him? Of course that's a standard metric used to rate a player. Lol

That's exactly what theyve done. With the entire team.

You've followed up with more of your observations again. Such as you notice Cates more than Frost. My last post established with facts that your observations are not reliable.

NHL teams don't view a 3rd line as a checking line. At least not the good teams. That's archaic.
- MJL

My observations are very reliable. Cates is involved in the play more than Frost and he goes into the highly contested areas whereas Frost stays on the perimeter much of the time. You also can't ignore the discrepancy in the +/- that you seem to be avoiding. Cates is a +6 while getting all those extra minutes on a bad team while Frost is a -15 with less playing time.

I disagree that employing a checking line is archaic. Whether it's the third line or whatever the good teams still employ checking lines. I know in today's games many coaches don't like to designate line numbers, but checking lines are still very much a part of the game. Just wait until playoff time comes around and you will see teams trying to matchup their best checking forwards against the other team's top line.

One thing to also consider is Cates has never played this many games in a season before. While most rookies tend to decline after the all-star break, Cates has been astonishingly consistent each and every game. I really can't say the same for Frost, though I do acknowledge he is playing better now than I think at any time in his Flyers career. I like Cates too. My only point here is if you believe that Frost has the skills to be a good center in this league, then just based on what you seen from Cates this year, you have to feel the same way about Cates also.
- jd250

You've recently labeled Frost as an AHL player so I don't place any weight on you not saying the same for Frost.

Cates doesn't have the puck skills to play center in my opinion. He belongs on the wing.

My observations are very reliable. Cates is involved in the play more than Frost and he goes into the highly contested areas whereas Frost stays on the perimeter much of the time. You also can't ignore the discrepancy in the +/- that you seem to be avoiding. Cates is a +6 while getting all those extra minutes on a bad team while Frost is a -15 with less playing time.




I disagree that employing a checking line is archaic. Whether it's the third line or whatever the good teams still employ checking lines. I know in today's games many coaches don't like to designate line numbers, but checking lines are still very much a part of the game. Just wait until playoff time comes around and you will see teams trying to matchup their best checking forwards against the other team's top line.
- Phillywhiteout

The facts clearly showed that your observations are not accurate. That's a proven fact

Teams match up best against the best. If you match up your."checking" line against the other teams top line. Your checking line is on the ice too much. Good teams have 3 if not 4 scoring lines.

Ristolainen has not improved. He actually has regressed. He's actually a 3rd pair defenseman in this league. That's my opinion. Or should I say " in fact". Ristolainen has never been steady in his entire career, including now..The only thing they've done with Ristolainen,.is they locked him in a defensive box to prevent him from playing stupid. Its.equivalent to throwing an addict in jail and saying, hey we cured his addiction.
- MJL

Lol love it! I don't get a chance to see every game, but from what I see, he is having a better season overall than last season. Sure, disagree with the trade, contract, etc, but why keep hating on the guy? He has played for 2 of the worst teams in the league his whole career, so who knows how he'd play for a decent/contending team. From what I've seen, he has been better defensively and his bonehead plays have decreased, which IMO, shows improvement. That said, you are not breaking down every Risto miscue like last year, so indicates improvement!

The facts clearly showed that your observations are not accurate. That's a proven fact

Teams match up best against the best. If you match up your."checking" line against the other teams top line. Your checking line is on the ice too much. Good teams have 3 if not 4 scoring lines.
- MJL

Tampa has been to the last 3 Stanley Cup Finals. You don't think that they have a designated checking line? Why do you think they paid so dearly(way too much IMO) for that guy that they got from Nashville (I ain't gonna try to spell his name)?

Solid numbers for a college kid
- Bob Habib

freshman, on an average team, yup

That was me, and it's absolutely true. The amount of A+ chances that JVR, Tippet and Farabee have shanked this year off beautiful plays from Frost is unreal. Frost himself probably has 5-10 A+ chances that he personally shanked. Like that beautiful rush chance where he split the D before TDA went spearing.
- Tomahawk

I think you also reference average shooting %, just getting to the average he would have more points. I think/hope, with Tippett and Frost being fist year players their shooting % will hit the average as they are more patient with the puck

Frost/Cates, Frost/Cates, Eihhorn or Finkel


Both are rookies and on a team with little good news that is good news. Frost being with Tippett, who is a rookie is good news. Both Cates and Frost have progressed this year, Tippett has. Just like TK from year 1, they should all get better, convert more. If the Flyers actually add some needed talent in the right areas, they will be able to put Frost and Cates in better matchups. We all cry for drafting, development and patience, lets hope it continues with Frost, Cates and Tippett.

I don't care if they draft a D or 1st line O talent, they need all. Taking Cutter last season, will they take a D this season or a true center, seems the draft is O heavy up top.

Looking forward to seeing Foerster

we should be happy this AM, the Nucks are now tied with Philly and the Ducks even got a point. Come on Nucks, Habs and AZ, you can do it

Lol love it! I don't get a chance to see every game, but from what I see, he is having a better season overall than last season. Sure, disagree with the trade, contract, etc, but why keep hating on the guy? He has played for 2 of the worst teams in the league his whole career, so who knows how he'd play for a decent/contending team. From what I've seen, he has been better defensively and his bonehead plays have decreased, which IMO, shows improvement. That said, you are not breaking down every Risto miscue like last year, so indicates improvement!
- Don Nachbaur

Accurately assessing a players level of play is not hating on a player. The conservative sit back and block shots system is what has decreased his bonehead plays. Not the players improvement. If they went to a more modern aggressive puck pressure system, the same old Ristolainen would come out.

Tampa has been to the last 3 Stanley Cup Finals. You don't think that they have a designated checking line? Why do you think they paid so dearly(way too much IMO) for that guy that they got from Nashville (I ain't gonna try to spell his name)?
- Phillywhiteout

No, they don't have a designated checking line. I assure you, they didn't give up all that draft capital for a checking line player.

These were players Fletcher depended on when, on the dawn of December, he said, “I expect to be more competitive the rest of the way.” The arrogance and the condescension were staggering, if typical.

He said this after his team had lost 10 of its last 11 games, and would lose 16 of 18. Who would want any piece of what the Flyers have become?

“We never had an offer,” he admitted in regard to trying to trade van Riemsdyk, humbled by the utter irrelevance of the components of the team he constructed. “I don’t know what to say.”

How about, “I resign?”
-Marcus Hayes

You have to love Marcus! Just the optics of this season alone should be enough for Fletcher to resign. I don't how he can want to come to work seeing what this team is and also the reaction from the fans.

I think you also reference average shooting %, just getting to the average he would have more points. I think/hope, with Tippett and Frost being fist year players their shooting % will hit the average as they are more patient with the puck
- wcorvette

What I want to see from Frost is a more "shoot first" mentality. Frost tends to always look to pass the puck, but when he does shoot he actually scores sometimes, he has a deceptive and quick release. Even on the play where Frost split the Tampa D it looked to me like he didn't know what to do once he got past the defensemen. Frost needs to defer less and drive more, have confidence in himself and his own ability to score a goal. If I were coaching Frost, that is the message I would send him.

No, they don't have a designated checking line. I assure you, they didn't give up all that draft capital for a checking line player.
- MJL

Ah, but he is a checking line player. His numbers scream that he is a checking line forward or at least should be designated as such. Probably the first blunder Tampa has committed in awhile cause that seems like an awful high price for a player of his ilk.

What I want to see from Frost is a more "shoot first" mentality. Frost tends to always look to pass the puck, but when he does shoot he actually scores sometimes, he has a deceptive and quick release. Even on the play where Frost split the Tampa D it looked to me like he didn't know what to do once he got past the defensemen. Frost needs to defer less and drive more, have confidence in himself and his own ability to score a goal. If I were coaching Frost, that is the message I would send him.
- jd250

Somehow a narrative was formed that making a play to set up a teammate is now a negative and deferring. Somehow a narrative was formed that making a play and setting up a teammate is not driving play. Frost is not a shoot first player and doesn't need to be. He's a playmaker first and foremost. For a player who doesn't know what to do with the puck, he creates a good number of scoring chances for himself and his linemates. Imagine if he knew what to do?

Ah, but he is a checking line player. His numbers scream that he is a checking line forward or at least should be designated as such. Probably the first blunder Tampa has committed in awhile cause that seems like an awful high price for a player of his ilk.
- Phillywhiteout

The term "checking line player" is archaic and doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. TB obviously sees something in the player to give up that much. We'll see if they're right or not.

The term "checking line player" is archaic and doesn't exist in the NHL anymore. TB obviously sees something in the player to give up that much. We'll see if they're right or not.
- MJL

It's funny to me. I watch lots of hockey although not nearly as much as I used to and I seem to hear that term thrown around quite often about guys being good checking line forwards. I'd love to interview John Cooper on the subject and see if he thinks that term is as archaic as you say it is.

These are the same people that gave hayes 7.1M

Gave away ghost and assets

signed td - gave away more assets

traded for and signed rr to an extension - gave away more assets

I do not put any faith into anyone in this organization making a sound decision
- corduroy

You forgot coots and sanhiem extension.

It's funny to me. I watch lots of hockey although not nearly as much as I used to and I seem to hear that term thrown around quite often about guys being good checking line forwards. I'd love to interview John Cooper on the subject and see if he thinks that term is as archaic as you say it is.
- Phillywhiteout

Anecdotal at best. To be a quality team in today's NHL you need at least 3 scoring lines and all lines need to be reliable defensively and be able to match up against other teams top lines. Gone are the days of the John Madden's. Or the days when the Flyers had Podein/Otto/Klatt as a designated checking line. The league has evolved. Evolve with it.


Look at the players who have won the Selke award for the league's best defensive forward in the last decade. Bergeron, Barkov, Couturier, O'Reilly, Kopitar and Toews. All first line players. Where are the checking line forwards?