Anecdotal at best. To be a quality team in today's NHL you need at least 3 scoring lines and all lines need to be reliable defensively and be able to match up against other teams top lines. Gone are the days of the John Madden's. Or the days when the Flyers had Podein/Otto/Klatt as a designated checking line. The league has evolved. Evolve with it.


Look at the players who have won the Selke award for the league's best defensive forward in the last decade. Bergeron, Barkov, Couturier, O'Reilly, Kopitar and Toews. All first line players. Where are the checking line forwards?
- MJL

That last part is kind of BS. The scorers always get the accolades. Look at the guys that win the Norris. Are they truly the best defensemen? Usually they are the higher scoring defenders that are up for the award, but are they really the best defensemen? I'm going to be paying close attention to the term checking line forward. Gonna start counting how many times I hear the term in any given game.

That last part is kind of BS. The scorers always get the accolades. Look at the guys that win the Norris. Are they truly the best defensemen? Usually they are the higher scoring defenders that are up for the award, but are they really the best defensemen? I'm going to be paying close attention to the term checking line forward. Gonna start counting how many times I hear the term in any given game.
- Phillywhiteout

Actually until the last decade or so, the Selke usually went to middle six players like Gainey, Lehtonen, Poulin, etc..

MJL’s point is correct. The days of a designated checking line are long gone. 3 scoring lines that are responsible defensively and a 4th line that is also defensively responsible and can bring some energy is the way to go in today’s NHL.

Actually until the last decade or so, the Selke usually went to middle six players like Gainey, Lehtonen, Poulin, etc..

MJL’s point is correct. The days of a designated checking line are long gone. 3 scoring lines that are responsible defensively and a 4th line that is also defensively responsible and can bring some energy is the way to go in today’s NHL.
- BiggE

Do you think a Podein/Otto/Klatt line would be successful in today's game?

Risto is having his best season defensively probably in his entire career. Risto clearly has benefitted from the coaching of Torts and Shaw. In fact Risto on many nights this season has been the Flyers most steady defenseman. With all that said, Risto is still only a bubble top 4 defenseman that should not have been extended by the idiot Fletcher.
- jd250

Not saying he is great just don’t understand why he is the whipping boy when sanhiem and provie aren’t doing much better. And if anything sanhiem is having a terrible year. Risto gets pointed out as being out there for the goals against Tampa. 4 on the pp. well before sanhiem got benched and after. Look at their 5v5 numbers.

Actually until the last decade or so, the Selke usually went to middle six players like Gainey, Lehtonen, Poulin, etc..

MJL’s point is correct. The days of a designated checking line are long gone. 3 scoring lines that are responsible defensively and a 4th line that is also defensively responsible and can bring some energy is the way to go in today’s NHL.
- BiggE

I still think those kind of guys exist a plenty in today's NHL, but the league wants to emphasize scoring now, so the accolades go to them and with it the awards. It seems to me that very few teams in this league are lucky enough to actually have 3 scoring lines. Perhaps the best of the best, but that's it.

That last part is kind of BS. The scorers always get the accolades. Look at the guys that win the Norris. Are they truly the best defensemen? Usually they are the higher scoring defenders that are up for the award, but are they really the best defensemen? I'm going to be paying close attention to the term checking line forward. Gonna start counting how many times I hear the term in any given game.
- Phillywhiteout

No, it's not BS. What is the definition of the Norris trophy? Here it is.

"The James Norris Memorial Trophy is an annual award given "to the defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position."

Yes, they are truly the best defenseman. Again, in the modern game of NHL hockey. Defending well is not sitting back in your zone, blocking shots and clearing the crease. Hockey has evolved. Defending well is spending less time defending and more time attacking the other team. The defenseman who do that the best, are the best defenseman. It seems to me that you are stuck in the past.

As far as a checking line forward is concerned. I would suggest instead of listening to what an announcer would say on a broadcast. Pay attention to the game more.

Furio16 is back all of a sudden.

Furio16 is back all of a sudden.
- MJL

What is the problem with that and why is it funny?

Somehow a narrative was formed that making a play to set up a teammate is now a negative and deferring. Somehow a narrative was formed that making a play and setting up a teammate is not driving play. Frost is not a shoot first player and doesn't need to be. He's a playmaker first and foremost. For a player who doesn't know what to do with the puck, he creates a good number of scoring chances for himself and his linemates. Imagine if he knew what to do?
- MJL

How many times have you seen Frost, Hayes, and others get the puck in the high slot where they have the most net to shoot at and instead of shooting the puck they pass the puck to one side down low where the chance to score is much, much lower? This is something the Flyers do quite a bit, not just Frost, and it drives me crazy. This is what I men mostly about a shoot first mentality, when a player is anywhere in the slot area I want their first thought to be shoot and their second thought to be pass. Right now other than Tippet the Flyers have too many players that think the latter.

I still think those kind of guys exist a plenty in today's NHL, but the league wants to emphasize scoring now, so the accolades go to them and with it the awards. It seems to me that very few teams in this league are lucky enough to actually have 3 scoring lines. Perhaps the best of the best, but that's it.
- Phillywhiteout

The game has evolved. So exactly the same as the 70s. No. But as the game evolves that shouldn’t be a comparison. 4 th line players in todays game prob would’ve played higher with the same skill set if playing 30 years ago.

Do you think a Podein/Otto/Klatt line would be successful in today's game?
- furio16

No, other than Podein, they’d be too slow for today’s game other than maybe individually as part of a 4th line.

How many times have you seen Frost, Hayes, and others get the puck in the high slot where they have the most net to shoot at and instead of shooting the puck they pass the puck to one side down low where the chances to score is much, much lower? This is something the Flyers do quite a bit, not just Frost, and it drives me crazy. This is what I men mostly about a shoot first mentality, when a player is anywhere in the slot area I want their first thought to be shoot and their second thought to be pass. Right now other than Tippet the Flyers have too many players that think the latter.
- jd250

Hayes leads the team in shots on net. More than Tippet. When something like that happens across the team, it's a sign of a lack of offensive confidence team wide in trying to make the perfect play. That happens with every player on occasion. Yet you've tried to label Frost with this which isn't an issue. You want players to make the right play. If that is a pass to an open teammate in better scoring position, then that is the right play. Of course you don't want a play passing out of a point blank dangerous shot position. The biggest issues that Frost needs to work on are faceoffs and clearing up some of the turnovers in dangerous areas of the ice.

I still think those kind of guys exist a plenty in today's NHL, but the league wants to emphasize scoring now, so the accolades go to them and with it the awards. It seems to me that very few teams in this league are lucky enough to actually have 3 scoring lines. Perhaps the best of the best, but that's it.
- Phillywhiteout

Well yeah, a lot of teams need more talent. But the top teams usually have 3 lines that can score.

I think the main point though is that in 2023, teams don’t regularly carry a designated checking line.

No, other than Podein, they’d be too slow for today’s game other than maybe individually as part of a 4th line.
- BiggE

I disagree though we all have different takes. Klatt wasn't slow to me.

I disagree though we all have different takes. Klatt wasn't slow to me.
- furio16

Klatt was an average skater during his era. Today, that’s slow. Heck Guy Lafleur, a pure speedster in his era, would be an average skater at best today. NHL players, on average, are much faster than they were even 25 years ago.

I still think those kind of guys exist a plenty in today's NHL, but the league wants to emphasize scoring now, so the accolades go to them and with it the awards. It seems to me that very few teams in this league are lucky enough to actually have 3 scoring lines. Perhaps the best of the best, but that's it.
- Phillywhiteout

Anthony Cirelli is the modern day shut down guy on a Stanley cup champion, they do still exist but not as prominent

Klatt was an average skater during his era. Today, that’s slow. Heck Guy Lafleur, a pure speedster in his era, would be an average skater at best today. NHL players, on average, are much faster than they were even 25 years ago.
- BiggE

Don't think that would be an issue for him is all. Guy would be better than average to me. Either way comparing era's is difficult and not all that fair for lack of a better word.

Anthony Cirelli is the modern day shut down guy on a Stanley cup champion, they do still exist but not as prominent
- ClaudeFather

Cirelli has played the majority of his 5 on 5 ice time with players like Brayden Point, Alex Killorn and Brandon Hagel. That's not a checking line.

How many times have you seen Frost, Hayes, and others get the puck in the high slot where they have the most net to shoot at and instead of shooting the puck they pass the puck to one side down low where the chance to score is much, much lower? This is something the Flyers do quite a bit, not just Frost, and it drives me crazy. This is what I men mostly about a shoot first mentality, when a player is anywhere in the slot area I want their first thought to be shoot and their second thought to be pass. Right now other than Tippet the Flyers have too many players that think the latter.
- jd250

Just about every team does that these days... if you don't get goalies to move side to side the chances of scoring are super slim.

See: Steve Valiquette's "Royal Road":
https://www.msgnetworks.c...-of-goaltender-analytics/

...low percentage shots on net where Goaltender has more than a half a second to see the shot.

Goaltenders have an extremely high success rate with these opportunities because without lateral movement across the Royal Road or significant pre-shot movement, they are able to set angle, depth and create strong visual attachment to the puck. At this point the shooter is relying on either a perfect shot or goaltender incompetence for success.

2 games for spearing two balls. Seems fair.

Cirelli has played the majority of his 5 on 5 ice time with players like Brayden Point, Alex Killorn and Brandon Hagel. That's not a checking line.
- MJL

He is their shut down guy. I never said a thing about a checking line

Yet you feel Morgan Frost does have the puck and distribution skills to play center. Comparing the two of them in the most rudimentary but none-the-less most important way:

Morgan Frost
63 games, 12 goals, 18 assists, 30 points, -15 and 140 total NHL games played

Noah Cates:
64 games, 10 goals, 17 assists, 27 points, +6, and 64 total NHL games played

Oh, and BTW in Morgan's prior 55 games he had 5 goals, 11 assists, 16 points and was a -11. Frost does have a 44% face off win percentage this year, beating Cates' 39%, so I guess that means something.

Can you explain this apparent discrepancy? I mean if Frost has the skills to play center, why again doesn't Cates? Seems to me comparing the two players, Cates is way ahead of Frost at center and he never even played center before this season.
- jd250

Still banging that drum, huh? OK, let's start with this.

1) Frost has been involved directly in 54 high-danger scoring chances for the Flyers this season. On the Flyers, he's behind only Konecny (55, albeit in 11 fewer games due to injury). Cates is sixth among the forwards with 40.

2) In terms of puck distribution, let's just look at the last five games. Among the Flyers' total 58 high-danger chances in that span, Frost had assist opportunities on 10 and his own goal opportunity on four; 24.1 percent team wide directly involved Frost. Only frequent linemate Tippett (nine goal opportunities, seven assist opportunities, 27.6 percent) was in the middle of a higher-volume of chances. Cates has been involved on the setup end of three and the shooting end of three (10.3 percent).

Now, with this being said, Frost only has 3 points (1g, 2a) to show for the five-game sampling as does Tippett (2g, 1a). Cates has one point (1g, 0a) and it came as a result of a nice deflection on a play that was not judged to be high-danger.

Broken out over the whole season, based on high-danger chances with direct involvement, Frost should be at about 30 to 33 assists. The Flyers' struggles to finish chances have pulled his assist totals down quite a bit based on NHL averages of points to scoring chances. Frost himself isn't finishing chances frequently enough, but we're talking assists here.

Cates is a very different type of player than Frost, even with them both playing center but the eye test alone suggests that Frost is the significantly better distributor, and the numbers back it up. Cates is, however, the better 200-foot player. Cates gets tougher opposition, which also has to be factored in.

3) For the season, Frost has created 23 rebound opportunities; tied with Hayes for the most on the Flyers. Cates suffers here because he's a low-volume shooter when he plays center. He's created 14.

4) For a 10-game period in late October to mid November, Tortorella was deploying Frost a mere 11:23 per game (18th on the team, and less than the likes of Lukas Sedlak, Max Willman, a full two minutes less per game than Zack MacEwen, but about 45 seconds per game more than Wade Allison).

During this stretch, Frost's most frequent linemates were Nic Deslauriers, MacEwen, Tanner Laczynski and, after his waiver claim, Bellows. He did see a little bit of time with JVR, Tippett or Farabee but not much relative to his norms thereafter.

This segment of the season was Frost's most unproductive (0g, 1a) and overlaps the game he was scratched in his hometown Toronto with his parents in the stands. A player is responsible, first and foremost, for his own play. But it's also the coach's responsibility to put players in position to succeed. Torts was absolutely NOT doing that during this stretch. In fact, he was putting Frost in position to fail and, at the same time, saying things like "people are telling me this guy is an offense creator but I'm not seeing it."

I'll add to that, though, that from December onwards, Frost's usage and linemates have been much more appropriate deployment. Over the Flyers last 36 games, he's third in the team in scoring (one point ahead of Tippett, 24 to 23). That's OK -- far from great -- but it's the start of getting on the right track.

I like Cates a lot, too. I like him as a 3C. I'd still like him even better as a winger and F1 who can be moved around the top 9 as needed. But if you are seriously trying to say Cates and Frost are comparable as offense creators at center, you are way off-base.

He is their shut down guy. I never said a thing about a checking line
- ClaudeFather

He is known to be a strong two way player. I don't know what a shut down guy is.

Who had higher expectations, Frost a highly thought of 1st rd pick or Cates a longshot 5th rd pick?

When you look at both players taking everything into consideration who do you think is meeting/exceeding expectations?

Does anyone know what the PP time allotment for Frost vs. Cates looks like?

Still banging that drum, huh? OK, let's start with this.

1) Frost has been involved directly in 54 high-danger scoring chances for the Flyers this season. On the Flyers, he's behind only Konecny (55, albeit in 11 fewer games due to injury). Cates is sixth among the forwards with 40.

2) In terms of puck distribution, let's just look at the last five games. Among the Flyers' total 58 high-danger chances in that span, Frost had assist opportunities on 10 and his own goal opportunity on four; 24.1 percent team wide directly involved Frost. Only frequent linemate Tippett (nine goal opportunities, seven assist opportunities, 27.6 percent) was in the middle of a higher-volume of chances. Cates has been involved on the setup end of three and the shooting end of three (10.3 percent).

Now, with this being said, Frost only has 3 points (1g, 2a) to show for the five-game sampling as does Tippett (2g, 1a). Cates has one point (1g, 0a) and it came as a result of a nice deflection on a play that was not judged to be high-danger.

Broken out over the whole season, based on high-danger chances with direct involvement, Frost should be at about 30 to 33 assists. The Flyers' struggles to finish chances have pulled his assist totals down quite a bit based on NHL averages of points to scoring chances. Frost himself isn't finishing chances frequently enough, but we're talking assists here.

Cates is a very different type of player than Frost, even with them both playing center but the eye test alone suggests that Frost is the significantly better distributor, and the numbers back it up. Cates is, however, the better 200-foot player. Cates gets tougher opposition, which also has to be factored in.

3) For the season, Frost has created 23 rebound opportunities; tied with Hayes for the most on the Flyers. Cates suffers here because he's a low-volume shooter when he plays center. He's created 14.

4) For a 10-game period in late October to mid November, Tortorella was deploying Frost a mere 11:23 per game (18th on the team, and less than the likes of Lukas Sedlak, Max Willman, a full two minutes less per game than Zack MacEwen, but about 45 seconds per game more than Wade Allison).

During this stretch, Frost's most frequent linemates were Nic Deslauriers, MacEwen, Tanner Laczynski and, after his waiver claim, Bellows. He did see a little bit of time with JVR, Tippett or Farabee but not much relative to his norms thereafter.

This segment of the season was Frost's most unproductive (0g, 1a) and overlaps the game he was scratched in his hometown Toronto with his parents in the stands. A player is responsible, first and foremost, for his own play. But it's also the coach's responsibility to put players in position to succeed. Torts was absolutely NOT doing that during this stretch. In fact, he was putting Frost in position to fail and, at the same time, saying things like "people are telling me this guy is an offense creator but I'm not seeing it."

I'll add to that, though, that from December onwards, Frost's usage and linemates have been much more appropriate deployment. Over the Flyers last 36 games, he's third in the team in scoring (one point ahead of Tippett, 24 to 23). That's OK -- far from great -- but it's the start of getting on the right track.

I like Cates a lot, too. I like him as a 3C. I'd still like him even better as a winger and F1 who can be moved around the top 9 as needed. But if you are seriously trying to say Cates and Frost are comparable as offense creators at center, you are way off-base.
- bmeltzer

Completely echoes what posters such as me and Tomahawk and a few others have been saying. Trying to educate others but it falls on deaf ears. Maybe this will sink in.