It's not intelligent because as I stated, it ignores that the player could be a stronger player if he was used differently. As if "fine" is the apex of his development scale at this point in his career. Saying that he is doing fine is not an effective counter argument to the premise that Cates could be a better player with a higher upside playing on the wing rather than center. It also ignores that he was doing "finer" last season playing on the wing. We have that information. I have stated umpteen times that the issue is not with Cates. The issue is playing him out of position and he is less effective offensively. The data and the eye test tells us that. I don't know if you have missed it or what but I have very clearly laid out my position on Cates numerous times.



It wasn't at all rude. It was on point. When you make a statement that Cates has Selke level stats. Then that brings in actual Selke level stats in comparison. Which is why I used Bergeron and Couturier. Which showed that he doesn't have Selke level stats. That is a very reasonable approach. It was an error on your part to make that statement in my opinion. Having the highest defensive impact on the Flyers as a forward, on a bad team. Does not give a player Selke level stats. It's that simple.
- MJL

By that logic his LW stats from last season should also have an asterisk because, ya know, bad team.

The fact is he got selke votes as a rookie who learned the position on the job. Due to (drum roll) Tort's usage. As a Flyers fan I am thrilled with that.

You are saying it's a fact he'd be better at LW this year based on last year. That is simply not a 'fact', no matter how many times you shoehorn the word into your arguements

By that logic his LW stats from last season should also have an asterisk because, ya know, bad team.

The fact is he got selke votes as a rookie who learned the position on the job. Due to (drum roll) Tort's usage. As a Flyers fan I am thrilled with that.

You are saying it's a fact he'd be better at LW this year based on last year. That is simply not a 'fact', no matter how many times you shoehorn the word into your arguements
- black_francis

I am convinced now. He is incapable of understanding.

In my opinion, it's just Tortorella's misguided and schizophrenic idea of trying to push and motivate a player for the most part. It's also a lot of Frost is not the kind of player he really likes.
- MJL

Look, this is the bottom line when it comes to Frost. Frost is a skilled player that is small and was lazy when he came up last season. He didn't fight for pucks, he was poor in his own end, and had low confidence offensively. Now as Bill pointed out, Frost lost a season of development due to a shoulder injury and Bill also pointed out that injury impacted Frost's ability to shoot. None the less Frost was a player that I like to call "all fluff and no stuff" last season. Coming into this season he was pretty much that same player and IMO was headed in the direction of being a career AHL player. Torts and his staff worked with Frost and to Frost's credit, he took the coaching and worked on his 200 foot game. Frost still has a ways to go in terms of his face off win % (which is also improving) and his puck battles (he needs more muscle, still too easy to knock off the puck) but he has improved to a point where I think Torts might want to keep him.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging where Frost was at the start of this season and where he is now. Instead of calling an accomplished NHL coach with 700 NHL wins archaic and Schizophrenic because Frost is "not his type of player", why don't you give the coach credit for wokring with Frost and developing him, and give credit to Frost for taking the coaching and getting on the right path towards an NHL future.

By that logic his LW stats from last season should also have an asterisk because, ya know, bad team.

The fact is he got selke votes as a rookie who learned the position on the job. Due to (drum roll) Tort's usage. As a Flyers fan I am thrilled with that.

You are saying it's a fact he'd be better at LW this year based on last year. That is simply not a 'fact', no matter how many times you shoehorn the word into your arguements
- black_francis

He only deals with “facts”

Look, this is the bottom line when it comes to Frost. Frost is a skilled player that is small and was lazy when he came up last season. He didn't fight for pucks, he was poor in his own end, and had low confidence offensively. Now as Bill pointed out, Frost lost a season of development due to a shoulder injury and Bill also pointed out that injury impacted Frost's ability to shoot. None the less Frost was a player that I like to call "all fluff and no stuff" last season. Coming into this season he was pretty much that same player and IMO was headed in the direction of being a career AHL player. Torts and his staff worked with Frost and to Frost's credit, he took the coaching and worked on his 200 foot game. Frost still has a ways to go in terms of his face off win % (which is also improving) and his puck battles (he needs more muscle, still too easy to knock off the puck) but he has improved to a point where I think Torts might want to keep him.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging where Frost was at the start of this season and where he is now. Instead of calling an accomplished NHL coach with 700 NHL wins archaic and Schizophrenic because Frost is "not was type of player", why don't you give the coach credit for wokring with Frost and developing him, and give credit to Frost for taking the coaching and getting on the right path towards an NHL future.
- jd250

or how a lot of the other young players are doing well and progressing...york, tippet, cates, even frost. Farabee imo gets a slight pass due to the surgery. but he has been better recently. tyson usage when he was up. then look at how a lot of them have praised the work torts has done. but no...doesn;t fit the narrative...

He only deals with “opinions”
- ClaudeFather

ftfy

Look, this is the bottom line when it comes to Frost. Frost is a skilled player that is small and was lazy when he came up last season. He didn't fight for pucks, he was poor in his own end, and had low confidence offensively. Now as Bill pointed out, Frost lost a season of development due to a shoulder injury and Bill also pointed out that injury impacted Frost's ability to shoot. None the less Frost was a player that I like to call "all fluff and no stuff" last season. Coming into this season he was pretty much that same player and IMO was headed in the direction of being a career AHL player. Torts and his staff worked with Frost and to Frost's credit, he took the coaching and worked on his 200 foot game. Frost still has a ways to go in terms of his face off win % (which is also improving) and his puck battles (he needs more muscle, still too easy to knock off the puck) but he has improved to a point where I think Torts might want to keep him.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging where Frost was at the start of this season and where he is now. Instead of calling an accomplished NHL coach with 700 NHL wins archaic and Schizophrenic because Frost is "not was type of player", why don't you give the coach credit for wokring with Frost and developing him, and give credit to Frost for taking the coaching and getting on the right path towards an NHL future.
- jd250

It is completely false that Frost was a lazy player. He was continually lauded by previous head coaches and assistant coaches for his work ethic and his willingness to work hard at improving and correcting his weaknesses. It is also false that he didn't fight for pucks or was weak in his own end.
Your assessment of Frost is not accurate and is not based on any of the facts that are known.

The head coach has been more detrimental to the development of Frost than helpful. Despite that, Frost has succeeded and grown as a player and has overcome all of the obstacles put in his way. That shows what kind of player he is and that he is in fact, certainly not lazy.

He only deals with “facts”
- ClaudeFather

Do you know what's interesting? That this is the only reply you can make. You can't actually address the points made. It's also interesting that you apparently agree with a poster who claims that I shoehorn the word fact in, when quoting a post that is two full paragraphs long that doesn't contain the word "fact' once. It is also interesting that a claim is made that I'm posting as fact when the very language used in my post is "the premise that Cates could be a better player with a higher upside playing on the wing rather than center" The word 'could" certainly doesn't insinuate that it is a fact.
Between not being able to understand the English language. Not being able to grasp simple concepts such as scoring rate. Not being able to understand that the criticism is of his usage and not of the player. It's pure comedy central from a group who can't as a whole make a single intelligent point in rebuttal. The can only hurl insults and rhetoric along with Smilies. It's completely impotent.

You said he had Selke level stats. Selke level stats are not the best on the team.

Here is the comparison for you.

Patrice Bergeron

1.29 GA/60 2.07 xGA/60

Here is Couturier when he won the Selke in 2020

2.11 GA/60 2.17 xGA/60



The author is foolish in using relative to teammates stats with the Flyers. Cates is a strong player away from the puck but he is not Selke level.
- MJL

But looking at the stats he posted, Cates’ impact on goals against ranks 4th in the league behind Bergeron, Backlund, Jordan Staal. Its not just compared to other Flyers. The kid is legit having a great defensive year and is ranked among the leagues best.

Cates' GA/60 is 1.69 (better than Couts when he won the Selke) and his xGA is 2.47

But looking at the stats he posted, Cates’ impact on goals against ranks 4th in the league behind Bergeron, Backlund, Jordan Staal. Its not just compared to other Flyers. The kid is legit having a great defensive year and is ranked among the leagues best.

Cates' GA/60 is 1.69 (better than Couts when he won the Selke) and his xGA is 2.47
- MBFlyerfan

That stat was relative to his teammates. Which could certainly show his defensive ability in comparison to his teammates. When looking at whether he has Selke level stats, the valid comparison is not to his teammates but to the Selke level forwards in the league. He doesn't measure up there.

But looking at the stats he posted, Cates’ impact on goals against ranks 4th in the league behind Bergeron, Backlund, Jordan Staal. Its not just compared to other Flyers. The kid is legit having a great defensive year and is ranked among the leagues best.

Cates' GA/60 is 1.69 (better than Couts when he won the Selke) and his xGA is 2.47
- MBFlyerfan

I believe he is first or second on the team in takeaways as well. He has a high defensive zone starting rate. I have been impressed with his work. ideal he is playing against the other teams 1c most nigths, no. but the kid can play and lookingforward to watching him continue to grow.

said before. he is also a plus player....took coots 7 seasons to score above 40 points.

That stat was relative to his teammates. Which could certainly show his defensive ability in comparison to his teammates. When looking at whether he has Selke level stats, the valid comparison is not to his teammates but to the Selke level forwards in the league. He doesn't measure up there.
- MJL

how many rookies got selke votes? and is this normal....no

It is completely false that Frost was a lazy player. He was continually lauded by previous head coaches and assistant coaches for his work ethic and his willingness to work hard at improving and correcting his weaknesses. It is also false that he didn't fight for pucks or was weak in his own end.
Your assessment of Frost is not accurate and is not based on any of the facts that are known.

The head coach has been more detrimental to the development of Frost than helpful. Despite that, Frost has succeeded and grown as a player and has overcome all of the obstacles put in his way. That shows what kind of player he is and that he is in fact, certainly not lazy.
- MJL

You are completely delusional when it comes to Frost and Torts. You just can't accept the facts. Even Bill posted in this forum Frost himself realized he had become a bit lazy as a player in the minors because things came too easily for him. You are in complete denial.

You are completely delusional when it comes to Frost and Torts. You just can't accept the facts. Even Bill posted in this forum Frost himself realized he had become a bit lazy as a player in the minors because things came too easily for him. You are in complete denial.
- jd250

You don't even know what you posted 5 minutes ago. First it's Frost was lazy when he came up last year. Now it's he's was lazy in juniors. You mischaracterize what was said. What was said is that Frost developed some bad habits as a junior player due to being far more skilled than others that you can't rely on in the NHL. That is not being lazy and it is common with young players. You have called Frost an AHL player this year, who has no future with the Flyers and you state that I'm in complete denial. You have been wrong about Frost every step of the way and have no standing to make that statement. On this or on anything.

That stat was relative to his teammates. Which could certainly show his defensive ability in comparison to his teammates. When looking at whether he has Selke level stats, the valid comparison is not to his teammates but to the Selke level forwards in the league. He doesn't measure up there.
- MJL

Selke Rankings according to the Hockey Writers in January 2023. I just picked some stats that I thought might be relavent to compare these players. You be the judge.

1) Patrice Bergeron
xOff: 12.4 xDef: 5.5 GIVE/60: 0.9 TAKE/60: 1.6 GAR: 17 WAR: 2.9
2) Nico Hischier
xOff: 6.8 xDef: 1.8 GIVE/60: 1.4 TAKE/60: 2.4 GAR: 17.5 WAR: 3
3) Elias Pettersson
xOff: 12.7 xDef: 1.5 GIVE/60: 1.7 TAKE/60: 2.2 GAR: 25 WAR: 4.2
4) Mitch Marner
xOff: 15.5 xDef: 3 GIVE/60: 3.3 TAKE/60: 3.7 GAR: 20.3 WAR: 3.5
5) Jordan Staal
xOff: 4.7 xDef: 5.1 GIVE/60: 1.3 TAKE/60: 1.5 GAR: 2.7 WAR: 0.5

Noah Cates
xOff: -2 xDef: 6.8 GIVE/60: 0.5 TAKE/60: 2.4 GAR: 12.7 WAR: 2.2

In some ways, Cates is right there with the others, but offensively he has a way to go, though I agree with Torts that the Selke should be about defensive forwards, not offense.

By that logic his LW stats from last season should also have an asterisk because, ya know, bad team.

The fact is he got selke votes as a rookie who learned the position on the job. Due to (drum roll) Tort's usage. As a Flyers fan I am thrilled with that.

You are saying it's a fact he'd be better at LW this year based on last year. That is simply not a 'fact', no matter how many times you shoehorn the word into your arguements
- black_francis

I’m one of those who would have liked to have seen Cates play on left wing as well. He showed a nice forcheck with his skating ability and there might be a little more offense in Cates if you take away defensive responsibilities.

With this said, you can’t argue your point which is well said and you can’t argue with the results. Noah Cates is a perfect example that Torts isn’t this incompetent dinosaur. I wouldn’t say I agree with every move Torts makes but Torts did see something different in Cates from day one and has rolled with it, creating success for this player, who might be playing out of his natural position.

Selke Rankings according to the Hockey Writers in January 2023. I just picked some stats that I thought might be relavent to compare these players. You be the judge.

1) Patrice Bergeron
xOff: 12.4 xDef: 5.5 GIVE/60: 0.9 TAKE/60: 1.6 GAR: 17 WAR: 2.9
2) Nico Hischier
xOff: 6.8 xDef: 1.8 GIVE/60: 1.4 TAKE/60: 2.4 GAR: 17.5 WAR: 3
3) Elias Pettersson
xOff: 12.7 xDef: 1.5 GIVE/60: 1.7 TAKE/60: 2.2 GAR: 25 WAR: 4.2
4) Mitch Marner
xOff: 15.5 xDef: 3 GIVE/60: 3.3 TAKE/60: 3.7 GAR: 20.3 WAR: 3.5
5) Jordan Staal
xOff: 4.7 xDef: 5.1 GIVE/60: 1.3 TAKE/60: 1.5 GAR: 2.7 WAR: 0.5

Noah Cates
xOff: -2 xDef: 6.8 GIVE/60: 0.5 TAKE/60: 2.4 GAR: 12.7 WAR: 2.2

In some ways, Cates is right there with the others, but offensively he has a way to go, though I agree with Torts that the Selke should be about defensive forwards, not offense.
- jd250

Has there ever been a player awarded the Selke trophy that didn't excel in the defensive areas of the game?

Are you sure that these aren't stats from some teenager in his Mom's basement.

Has there ever been a player awarded the Selke trophy that didn't excel in the defensive areas of the game?

Are you sure that these aren't stats from some teenager in his Mom's basement.
- MJL

They are from evolving hockey so most likely ... but anyway, defensively speaking, Cates is right there with the proposed finalists.

Has there ever been a player awarded the Selke trophy that didn't excel in the defensive areas of the game?

Are you sure that these aren't stats from some teenager in his Mom's basement.
- MJL

https://thehockeywriters....-23-selke-trophy-tracker/

patrice is not the leader in each category, but yet he is winning in votes.

cates is 19th overall for ga/60. in the top ten if you start to consider minutes played. I.E. over 800 or over 900. 7 players above him haven't played over 800 minutes, 3 players not more than 700 min. cates has played over 950 minutes.

for example, nico hischier is 49th.

According to SanFillipo the 3 names for the President of Hockey Ops - Ray Shero, Scott Mellanby, and Robert Esche.

I’m one of those who would have liked to have seen Cates play on left wing as well. He showed a nice forcheck with his skating ability and there might be a little more offense in Cates if you take away defensive responsibilities.

With this said, you can’t argue your point which is well said and you can’t argue with the results. Noah Cates is a perfect example that Torts isn’t this incompetent dinosaur. I wouldn’t say I agree with every move Torts makes but Torts did see something different in Cates from day one and has rolled with it, creating success for this player, who might be playing out of his natural position.
- SuperSchennBros

Here is my one fear about Torts and it comes back to Bill Bellichick. Bill is still coaching the Patriots into his 70s, chasing the one record he does not have, Don Shula's win total. Bill has lost his fast ball for sure, and one of the ways it has manifested itself is his apparent disdain for really good players. I feel he would rather coach up a team of average players versus dealing with the crap you deal with when you coach super-stars. In this way, the game has passed Bill by.

With Torts, he recently talked about how to build a team. He said the way to do it is to be patient with your young players development and augment or backfill those players with solid veterans. In no way was there any acknowledgement that in today's NHL, the teams that have won the Cup have good teams, but they also have super-stars. Colorado, Tampa, Pittsburgh, Chicago most recently. Even the Caps and LA had all-star players, and St. Louis had a strong lineup and a very hot goalie. So my fear is, what if your young players are good, but not super-stars, what then? That is why to me the Flyers needed to be picking in the top 3 in this draft. Getting Fantilli or Carlsson even would change everything in terms of rebuild timeline and path to a legitimate contender. I just don't want the Flyers to turn into Columbus circa 2017, a good team with talent, but not enough to beat the real contenders.

According to SanFillipo the 3 names for the President of Hockey Ops - Ray Shero, Scott Mellanby, and Robert Esche.
- Trox88

shero or esche. thanks

shero or esche. thanks
- Peter Richards

I don't think it will be any of them. To be honest, Danny should be the President and then hire a GM, it doesn't make any sense otherwise. Torts is talking about how to build the team and not naming a captain next season. What if the new President doesn't agree with that approach or changes his/her mind after a year or so of being here? What then? Either the President is going to have authority which means Danny might be out of a job, or they are going to be a figure head only which is not good for anyone. That is why to me Danny should be the President of hockey Ops with real authority, and bring in a GM from the outside, someone like Mathieu Darche.

You don't even know what you posted 5 minutes ago. First it's Frost was lazy when he came up last year. Now it's he's was lazy in juniors. You mischaracterize what was said. What was said is that Frost developed some bad habits as a junior player due to being far more skilled than others that you can't rely on in the NHL. That is not being lazy and it is common with young players. You have called Frost an AHL player this year, who has no future with the Flyers and you state that I'm in complete denial. You have been wrong about Frost every step of the way and have no standing to make that statement. On this or on anything.
- MJL

At the start of the season your dammed right I called Frost an AHL player because that is what he was playing like. Torts has coached Frost up, though recently and openly admitted he still does not have 100/% trust in Frost. Frost has apparently worked hard and taken the coaching, but the credit goes to Torts and his staff for working with the player. For the first time in a long time, we have a group of coaches that are actually developing the FLyers' younger players, and yet you still coimplain!

They are from evolving hockey so most likely ... but anyway, defensively speaking, Cates is right there with the proposed finalists.
- jd250

No he is not. Cates is not remotely close to the defensive level that Bergeron is at. Bergeron massively tilts the ice to the Bruins favor. Cates is strong defensively but is not at the level that Bergeron is at.