24-mos ago he was busy trying to convert Patrik Laine into a net front power forward because size or something. One of the best pure shooters in the game from distance... he wanted him to crash the net and hunt for garbage. This was while repeatedly benching the 22-yo for not following The Standard.

The before and after pretty much says it all:

Laine before Torts: 0.82 P/G +0
Laine under Torts: 0.47 P/G -29
Laine after Torts: 0.97 P/G -19


His entire approach is taking any collection of players, no matter what their makeup and skillset, and forcing them to play the same damned way. Square pegs into round holes, it doesn't matter. He's a hammer.
- Tomahawk

Pretty much sums it up. Loves the Nick Foligno's of the hockey world. If your a finesse offensive player. You better be a star like Panarin to get some love from Tortorella. Where he can't afford to not play you.

I understand and can see the point of wanting to play Cates with Frost and Tippett. It’s completely valid and a real possibility next season. I just don’t agree that this time at center is a negative for Cates development and definitely not a negative for the team going forward. Could he have had more points at wing? Sure but that isn’t more advanced that is just him playing a different position and benefiting from his capabilities there.


- NC Flyers Fan

Why isn't that more advanced? If Cates plays LW and scores at a much higher rate while keeping the strong ply away from the puck. How is that not more advanced?

There is no guarantees that the Flyers get an NHL ready center in this draft. So on the one hand he may get moved to wing next season, or he could be the team’s 3C. Either way, I think expanding his skill set this year will benefit him and the team down the road. What if the have say, Coots—Frost—young 3C—4C and then run into injuries? It will be a good thing it isn’t his first time getting put into the middle as a 1C or 2C. Even as a future fill-in, this season at center has big value.
- NC Flyers Fan

Should a team like the Flyers be putting the team needs ahead of what is best for the development of a young player? I would answer no.

24-mos ago he was busy trying to convert Patrik Laine into a net front power forward because size or something. One of the best pure shooters in the game from distance... he wanted him to crash the net and hunt for garbage. This was while repeatedly benching the 22-yo for not following The Standard.

The before and after pretty much says it all:

Laine before Torts: 0.82 P/G +0
Laine under Torts: 0.47 P/G -29
Laine after Torts: 0.97 P/G -19


His entire approach is taking any collection of players, no matter what their makeup and skillset, and forcing them to play the same damned way. Square pegs into round holes, it doesn't matter. He's a hammer.
- Tomahawk

I’m not a Laine fan either. He definitely isn’t defensive-minded. He is a shooter and best utilized in that way so I agree there. Not every player is going to fit, but they can’t all be grinders. The Flyers and Torts have to allow skill to be skill.

What Yeo and to a certain extent Tortorella don't seem to believe is that you don't have to stifle a players strengths to work on other areas of his game. You can best support a player and give him the most confidence by putting him in the best position to succeed where he can use his strengths while at the same time. Working to improve in other areas. That's how the top teams develop skilled players
- MJL

This! The flyers are notorious for forcing young kids to play outside of their skillset while stifling the skill set that made them high draft picks in the first place. I've never seen anything like it

Why isn't that more advanced? If Cates plays LW and scores at a much higher rate while keeping the strong ply away from the puck. How is that not more advanced?



Should a team like the Flyers be putting the team needs ahead of what is best for the development of a young player? I would answer no.
- MJL

1. Because a player can have more impact on the game in a different position. It isn’t just goals for, it is also goals against.

2. It’s a balance. I agree with this because I don’t believe it harms Cates.

I’m not a Laine fan either. He definitely isn’t defensive-minded. He is a shooter and best utilized in that way so I agree there. Not every player is going to fit, but they can’t all be grinders. The Flyers and Torts have to allow skill to be skill.
- NC Flyers Fan

The problem is that Torts forces all his players to conform to a "role". Sometimes those roles are consistent with a player's toolbox. Other times they're completely inconsistent like Laine net-front, Sedins killing penalties, Hayes as 3LW, TDA as 27min top-pair D, or Cates in the middle and on the top PP unit, etc.

He's a coach that can certainly get a questionable team up to a certain baseline of performance. But he's a coach that also drags good teams down to that same baseline (see: Canucks). The Flyers might benefit some from having him around right now, but he's gonna be holding a lot of these players back in the coming seasons if they don't nix him now.

1. Because a player can have more impact on the game in a different position. It isn’t just goals for, it is also goals against.

2. It’s a balance. I agree with this because I don’t believe it harms Cates.
- NC Flyers Fan

A player doesn't make more impact on the game by making him a weaker player by playing him in a position outside of his best skill set.

All the evidence we have shows that it has weakened Cates.

The problem is that Torts forces all his players to conform to a "role". Sometimes those roles are consistent with a player's toolbox. Other times they're completely inconsistent like Laine net-front, Sedins killing penalties, Hayes as 3LW, TDA as 27min top-pair D, or Cates in the middle and on the top PP unit, etc.

He's a coach that can certainly get a questionable team up to a certain baseline of performance. But he's a coach that also drags good teams down to that same baseline (see: Canucks). The Flyers might benefit some from having him around right now, but he's gonna be holding a lot of these players back in the coming seasons if they don't nix him now.
- Tomahawk

Well said. I've been saying that all season. You state it far more eloquently though.

A player doesn't make more impact on the game by making him a weaker player by playing him in a position outside of his best skill set.

All the evidence we have shows that it has weakened Cates.
- MJL

You and others on this forum have no idea what you are talking about ...

The problem is that Torts forces all his players to conform to a "role". Sometimes those roles are consistent with a player's toolbox. Other times they're completely inconsistent like Laine net-front, Sedins killing penalties, Hayes as 3LW, TDA as 27min top-pair D, or Cates in the middle and on the top PP unit, etc.

He's a coach that can certainly get a questionable team up to a certain baseline of performance. But he's a coach that also drags good teams down to that same baseline (see: Canucks). The Flyers might benefit some from having him around right now, but he's gonna be holding a lot of these players back in the coming seasons if they don't nix him now.
- Tomahawk

The only reason any of these kids are developing this year is because of Torts and his staff. You and others on this forum have lamented for years about how bad the Flyers are at developing their players, and now this year we see great development on the Phantoms and the big club, and yet you want to nix the one person that is responsible for it??

What a joke!

24-mos ago he was busy trying to convert Patrik Laine into a net front power forward because size or something. One of the best pure shooters in the game from distance... he wanted him to crash the net and hunt for garbage. This was while repeatedly benching the 22-yo for not following The Standard.

The before and after pretty much says it all:

Laine before Torts: 0.82 P/G +0
Laine under Torts: 0.47 P/G -29
Laine after Torts: 0.97 P/G -19


His entire approach is taking any collection of players, no matter what their makeup and skillset, and forcing them to play the same damned way. Square pegs into round holes, it doesn't matter. He's a hammer.
- Tomahawk

It reminds me of the old joke.

Who was the only guy who could keep Steven Stamkos from scoring 30 goals?

Rick Tocchet

I imagine if we somehow lucked in to Bedard, you will be able to tell that same joke about Torts.

I would not be surprised in the least if Torts sat Bedard because he didn't block a shot.

24-mos ago he was busy trying to convert Patrik Laine into a net front power forward because size or something. One of the best pure shooters in the game from distance... he wanted him to crash the net and hunt for garbage. This was while repeatedly benching the 22-yo for not following The Standard.

The before and after pretty much says it all:

Laine before Torts: 0.82 P/G +0
Laine under Torts: 0.47 P/G -29
Laine after Torts: 0.97 P/G -19


His entire approach is taking any collection of players, no matter what their makeup and skillset, and forcing them to play the same damned way. Square pegs into round holes, it doesn't matter. He's a hammer.
- Tomahawk

yep

I’m not a Laine fan either. He definitely isn’t defensive-minded. He is a shooter and best utilized in that way so I agree there. Not every player is going to fit, but they can’t all be grinders. The Flyers and Torts have to allow skill to be skill.
- NC Flyers Fan

Laine is a dog, plain and simple! He plays when he feels like playing. He doesn't give a crap about his team, his teammates, his fans, etc. That is why Winnipeg couldn't wait to get rid of him and that is why you see the numbers you see. When the games don't mean anything sure, Laine will play pond hockey and score. But when the games mean something, if he ever gets a chance to play in such a game, he will cower in the corner and disappear. Mark my words! I have seen his type of player dozens of times in my lifetime, he is a dog!

Pretty much sums it up. Loves the Nick Foligno's of the hockey world. If your a finesse offensive player. You better be a star like Panarin to get some love from Tortorella. Where he can't afford to not play you.
- MJL

Speaking of Panarin:

Before Torts: 0.93 pts/game
Under Torts: 1.05 pts/game
After Torts: 1.28 pts/game

Hmmmm .. this looks like a nice progression to me. POP! That is the sound of this ridiculous argument fizzling away.

Laine is a dog, plain and simple! He plays when he feels like playing. He doesn't give a crap about his team, his teammates, his fans, etc. That is why Winnipeg couldn't wait to get rid of him and that is why you see the numbers you see. When the games don't mean anything sure, Laine will play pond hockey and score. But when the games mean something, if he ever gets a chance to play in such a game, he will cower in the corner and disappear. Mark my words! I have seen his type of player dozens of times in my lifetime, he is a dog!
- jd250

Frost is an AHL player - Check

McAvoy is not a top tier d-man - Check

Risto is a good D-man - Check

your evaluations on NHL players is suspect at best

The problem is that Torts forces all his players to conform to a "role". Sometimes those roles are consistent with a player's toolbox. Other times they're completely inconsistent like Laine net-front, Sedins killing penalties, Hayes as 3LW, TDA as 27min top-pair D, or Cates in the middle and on the top PP unit, etc.

He's a coach that can certainly get a questionable team up to a certain baseline of performance. But he's a coach that also drags good teams down to that same baseline (see: Canucks). The Flyers might benefit some from having him around right now, but he's gonna be holding a lot of these players back in the coming seasons if they don't nix him now.
- Tomahawk

I guess we’ll see. The Flyers young forwards (even strength) have grown and improved a lot this season under Torts. If Coots returns to form, I would be really interested to see them all slotted more appropriately. Torts keeps saying he might not be the guy when it all comes together but I am just not down on him for the overall all job he has done so far. The Flyer’s lack top-end talent.

Laine is a dog, plain and simple! He plays when he feels like playing. He doesn't give a crap about his team, his teammates, his fans, etc. That is why Winnipeg couldn't wait to get rid of him and that is why you see the numbers you see. When the games don't mean anything sure, Laine will play pond hockey and score. But when the games mean something, if he ever gets a chance to play in such a game, he will cower in the corner and disappear. Mark my words! I have seen his type of player dozens of times in my lifetime, he is a dog!
- jd250

How about the Sedins? Are they dogs too?


Henrik:

Season before Torts 0.94 P/G
Season under Torts 0.71 P/G
Season after Torts 0.89 P/G

Daniel:

Season before Torts 0.85 P/G
Season under Torts 0.64 P/G
Season after Torts 0.93 P/G


That entire Canucks team went from a 50-win juggernaut to missing the POs under Torts back to a near 50-win team after he was fired.

Just admit you were wrong instead of pretending it was a good idea for Torts to play Frost with two unskilled plugs in MacEwen and Deslauriers. They have 21 points in 122 combined games - which is terrible.
- Feanor

I’ll let you do the math of 10 games out of 72 games with plugs.

I really should take advice from the guy who spend all last summer trying to convince us Sanheim is better than Provorov and should he traded based on this reasoning alone? Provorov should be traded, just not for your ridiculous rationalizations.

Still, people need to realize that Frost is doing well considering all the head winds that he's facing.
- Tomahawk

Frost is doing well but he’s also 2 months from 24. We’ve had other players on this roster who have well established themselves by this point. I like Frost but this doesn’t mean we as fans shouldn’t want more.

I’ll let you do the math of 10 games out of 72 games.

I really should take advice from the guy who spend all last summer trying to convince us Sanheim is better than Provorov and should he traded based on this reasoning alone? Provorov should be traded, just not for your ridiculous rationalizations.
- SuperSchennBros

FYI, Elliotte Friedman was saying the team wants to keep Sanheim and is ready to let Provy go, so maybe Danny shares that same "ridiculous rationalization".

All the evidence we have shows that it has weakened Cates.
- MJL

“All evidence” doesn’t really exist. A person could try to weigh Cate’s defensive impact at center against his projected additional points on the wing, but it doesn’t take into account the movement’s affect on other players including Frost and whoever takes the other center spot. It is really hypothetical. And hypothetically, I disagree that Cates is harmed by playing center.

I’m not a Laine fan either. He definitely isn’t defensive-minded. He is a shooter and best utilized in that way so I agree there. Not every player is going to fit, but they can’t all be grinders. The Flyers and Torts have to allow skill to be skill.
- NC Flyers Fan

I think it is somewhat unfair to put Laine's decline all on Torts. He declined every year in Winnepeg before being traded. I think Laine had some growing up to do as a player. Things came very easy to him early but teams adjusted to him.

Not sure Torts really improved the situation but the player needed to make adjustments as well.

FYI, Elliotte Friedman was saying the team wants to keep Sanheim and is ready to let Provy go, so maybe Danny shares that same "ridiculous rationalization".
- Tomahawk

What choice does this team have? Provorov can bring something back. What Will Sanheim bring back? Friedman also said both sides want to move on.

You guys and your narratives.

You and others on this forum have no idea what you are talking about ...
- jd250

So much so that this is all you can do.


You said the same thing when myself and others, talked about Fletcher while you were claiming he put the team on the path to the cup

The only reason any of these kids are developing this year is because of Torts and his staff. You and others on this forum have lamented for years about how bad the Flyers are at developing their players, and now this year we see great development on the Phantoms and the big club, and yet you want to nix the one person that is responsible for it??

What a joke!
- jd250

It's not because of Tortorella. If players like Couturier and Atkinson hadn't missed the season. Players like Tipett and Frost would've gotten a lot less playing time.