Hard times down at the country club. Too cosy down there gigsy.
- fifty__missions

Mike McKenna
@MikeMcKenna56
·
1h
31 NHL teams should be calling Jason Spezza right now.

He's a Leaf through and through, from Toronto, dreams of winning a Cup with that franchise was probably his LIFE GOAL.

And whatever went down made him walk away. WOW.

________________________

Nothing about this is a good thing for the Leafs. Yeah, maybe it works out, and that'd be great, but in no world is this a good thing.

Heavy demands; 5 mill per, private chauffeur, 4 Au Pairs for cleaning and waxing, a bigger condo
- THE EVIL WITHIN

Dubas wanted 50% higher salary! SpeZZa, i am not aware he had such rich demands.

Mcphee for GM
- jribout

Would be a solid move, not sure he leaves his job as president of Vegas to become Leaf's GM.

Mike McKenna
@MikeMcKenna56
·
1h
31 NHL teams should be calling Jason Spezza right now.

He's a Leaf through and through, from Toronto, dreams of winning a Cup with that franchise was probably his LIFE GOAL.

And whatever went down made him walk away. WOW.

________________________

Nothing about this is a good thing for the Leafs. Yeah, maybe it works out, and that'd be great, but in no world is this a good thing.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Why are you losing sleep over a GM who wasn't even fully committed to being here to see it through?

Leafs make a hasty and galaxy brained move that has clearly already pissed others inside the organisation off? So much so that someone even tendered their resignation, immediately?

People with bad opinions-


- GreatGigInTheSky

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

Make sure you get out the hand puppets to explain this to fifty_brain_cells, and when he responds telling you to (frank) off, not be a leaf fan and follow Dubas to his new team, despite you patiently sitting here watching him throw his tantrum for three years like a 5 year old, don't let it takeaway from the great analysis you have here.

(frank) you. You deserve it. I got ripped all week for calling Dubas' press conference part of a negotiation, called "inhuman", etc., .... and it turns out, guess what, it was part of a negotiation for more $.

If there's one thing Dubas proved once and for all - he's a poopty negotiator.
- fifty__missions

The funny part is you heard Dubas and couldn't take it for face value. You heard Shanahan and took it for 100% face value. Keep your narrative going.


Do I think it could be a bit of both? For sure. Just funny how it's only one extreme or the other with you.

I had no issues if Dubas wasn't here for next season. I mean, I understand wanting a new direction but you'd think a pretty simple task wouldn't be seemingly mishandled and left so much to be desired.

Yes Shanahan gave quite the description of the timeline since last summer. Know who does that? Someone trying to spin a story to their specific way. It's a way to tell a lie by laying so much out there that "it can't possibly have holes! Why would he be so honest?!"

Not saying there isn't some truth. Where there's smoke there's fire. What I'm saying is this oddly made Shanahan look completely innocent and threw Dubas completely under the bus. Maybe it comes out it's warranted and Shanahan is telling the complete truth but it's funny there was only Dubas words on Monday and they were questioned by some. Only Shanahan words today and it's taken as gospel.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

Let's see if Kyle actually takes a year off before we roast Shanahan for bad faith. There is also some bad faith in publicly using family as a negotiating ploy. That should always have been kept private. Lastly, Kyle publicly admitted that he might not be up to the job after the initial offer. Any person in a hiring position of responsibility for a leadership position is going to reevaluate after something like that, and changing course is far from out of line.

Mike McKenna
@MikeMcKenna56
·
1h
31 NHL teams should be calling Jason Spezza right now.

He's a Leaf through and through, from Toronto, dreams of winning a Cup with that franchise was probably his LIFE GOAL.

And whatever went down made him walk away. WOW.

________________________

Nothing about this is a good thing for the Leafs. Yeah, maybe it works out, and that'd be great, but in no world is this a good thing.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Today it's not a good thing. We still have to see how the next 6 weeks play out to get a good grasp of it.

It also feels like Shanahan may be next on the hot seat. He's the one who said today he had a gut feeling about Dubas and decided to move on. The board isn't firing themselves so he's next should things not work out. If things go south and the season is rocky, this will alllllll come back on Shanahan. Essentially, I think he's as all in on this move as Dubas was on the core.

Today it's not a good thing. We still have to see how the next 6 weeks play out to get a good grasp of it.

It also feels like Shanahan may be next on the hot seat. He's the one who said today he had a gut feeling about Dubas and decided to move on. The board isn't firing themselves so he's next should things not work out. If things go south and the season is rocky, this will alllllll come back on Shanahan. Essentially, I think he's as all in on this move as Dubas was on the core.
- Aaron_85

Agreed.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

Good analysis. It also seems like maybe there has been issues brewing for a while.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

So what I'm hearing are other takes. Where Shanahan cold called Dubas 9 years ago after being referred to him. Gave him a chance at the NHL level without any success in the Soo or anywhere else in a significant role. Shanahan bet on him and people are suggesting Dubas was in bad faith going back and asking for more because this is "the golden ticket". Which I do agree, Toronto is a top notch org to be in, so I get that part but it doesn't mean you get to treat them in bad faith like you suggested.

Shanahan mentioned he told Dubas not to speak on Monday and I think he didn't like that. He also mentioning looking at older, experienced GMs. Which can mean (I'm speculating) that they play a more political role and "play ball" with a guy like Shanahan whereas maybe Dubas didn't or wouldn't.

Pretty sure this is a Dubas stepping away scenario rather than a Leafs moving on. His press conference talking about the year being tough on his family said it all.

Would be a solid move, not sure he leaves his job as president of Vegas to become Leaf's GM.
- winsix

I am just dreaming.

Make sure you get out the hand puppets to explain this to fifty_brain_cells, and when he responds telling you to (frank) off, not be a leaf fan and follow Dubas to his new team, despite you patiently sitting here watching him throw his tantrum for three years like a 5 year old, don't let it takeaway from the great analysis you have here.
- joel878

Know what's ironic about the guys preaching "of course the players liked him. They give him what they wanted!"? It's that at their job I bet they've said a nasty word or two about a boss who wouldn't give them a day off or do something "for his people" and probably dislike any boss that they want as a GM.

Or

Dubas wanted too much money.
- Fakepartofme

Way too simple, so likely true.

Let's see if Kyle actually takes a year off before we roast Shanahan for bad faith. There is also some bad faith in publicly using family as a negotiating ploy. That should always have been kept private. Lastly, Kyle publicly admitted that he might not be up to the job after the initial offer. Any person in a hiring position of responsibility for a leadership position is going to reevaluate after something like that, and changing course is far from out of line.
- fifty__missions

You are reading way too much of your own vehemence towards Dubas into this. You have asserted from the moment you heard it that it was a negotiation tactic, but I still can't see it that way. It is either too hard for you to reconcile and you walk away or you reconcile it and you remain. The actual money is a secondary factor that comes _after_ the initial familial obligations. Right? Is this good for my family? If yes, then is the money acceptable? If no, then negotiate for more.

I also didn't see him as admitting he wasn't up to the job. He admitted there were internal and external stresses and that it was a difficult job. There isn't a GM in the league who doesn't feel that way. And if they don't, they are probably as bad as Peter Chiarelli at what they do. It's a hard job!

That all said, his words clearly resonated with Shanahan as him saying he might not be there and could leave him in the lurch - so instead he decided to leave himself in the lurch. It was a weird decision.

My largest concern is that for the first time in a very long time we had a management team who were set on doing things progressively and with a cohesive plan. Who replaces Dubas and how they choose to enact their plan is a very worrisome because while it presents an opportunity, it could be a significant step back.

Pretty sure this is a Dubas stepping away scenario rather than a Leafs moving on. His press conference talking about the year being tough on his family said it all.
- Mahewman

Shanahan got the last word in so he can say whatever he likes.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

I don't hate Dubas at all. I was hoping the Leafs would extend him. I also don't blame him for asking for more money. We do not know what he was offered and what his counter offer was. He made a very immature move by stating that he was "not sure whether he wanted to be the Leaf's GM moving forward" at a press conference. A more seasoned professional would do this behind closed doors and egos would be put aside. He didn't do this and it probably pissed off the board big time, and also Shanahan probably took major poop for this.

Let's see if Kyle actually takes a year off before we roast Shanahan for bad faith. There is also some bad faith in publicly using family as a negotiating ploy. That should always have been kept private. Lastly, Kyle publicly admitted that he might not be up to the job after the initial offer. Any person in a hiring position of responsibility for a leadership position is going to reevaluate after something like that, and changing course is far from out of line.
- fifty__missions

Can you pull the quote where he exactly "admitted" he wasn't up for the job? I didn't hear that so maybe I missed it.

I'll say it again. It's funny to me that if the leafs just fired him last weekend this wouldn't be a mess. Or even Tuesday. How did itend up like this?

You are reading way too much of your own vehemence towards Dubas into this. You have asserted from the moment you heard it that it was a negotiation tactic, but I still can't see it that way. It is either too hard for you to reconcile and you walk away or you reconcile it and you remain. The actual money is a secondary factor that comes _after_ the initial familial obligations. Right? Is this good for my family? If yes, then is the money acceptable? If no, then negotiate for more.

I also didn't see him as admitting he wasn't up to the job. He admitted there were internal and external stresses and that it was a difficult job. There isn't a GM in the league who doesn't feel that way. And if they don't, they are probably as bad as Peter Chiarelli at what they do. It's a hard job!

That all said, his words clearly resonated with Shanahan as him saying he might not be there and could leave him in the lurch - so instead he decided to leave himself in the lurch. It was a weird decision.

My largest concern is that for the first time in a very long time we had a management team who were set on doing things progressively and with a cohesive plan. Who replaces Dubas and how they choose to enact their plan is a very worrisome because while it presents an opportunity, it could be a significant step back.
- Monkeypunk

I actually agree with this. There absolutely is risk. But there is also risk in doing the same thing ad nauseum. We have enough track record to see a new approach is needed.

I'll say it again. It's funny to me that if the leafs just fired him last weekend this wouldn't be a mess. Or even Tuesday. How did itend up like this?
- Aaron_85

Shanahan decided he would take an entire year to evaluate Dubas and somehow after that year Shanahan caught Shanahan with his pants down.

It's a (frank)ing mess.

So what I'm hearing are other takes. Where Shanahan cold called Dubas 9 years ago after being referred to him. Gave him a chance at the NHL level without any success in the Soo or anywhere else in a significant role. Shanahan bet on him and people are suggesting Dubas was in bad faith going back and asking for more because this is "the golden ticket". Which I do agree, Toronto is a top notch org to be in, so I get that part but it doesn't mean you get to treat them in bad faith like you suggested.

Shanahan mentioned he told Dubas not to speak on Monday and I think he didn't like that. He also mentioning looking at older, experienced GMs. Which can mean (I'm speculating) that they play a more political role and "play ball" with a guy like Shanahan whereas maybe Dubas didn't or wouldn't.
- Aaron_85

All I have, like all of us, is a sort of "maybe" . My take on the words were that Shanahan wanted them to resolve the contract and announce it together later in the week. Dubas felt that he should meet with the press with the team and the coaches - and Shanny said he respected and approved of that decision. If he had specifically not wanted it to happen, it would not have happened -that much I am sure of.

For the first part? It smacks of Don't You Want Me by Human League.

I picked you out, I shook you up
And turned you around
Turned you into someone new
Now five years later on you've got the world at your feet
Success has been so easy for you
But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
And I can put you back down too.

You can be grateful as (frank) for those opportunities you are given, but Dubas earned the accolades he received - and he took the criticism he received as well. He had every right to ask for a contract that paid him above average rate. Likewise Shanahan had every right to decline that request or negotiate an elevated pay structure that would see him earn more.

All of that is moot now anyway. I just hope they make a smart move or two in the next few weeks.