Shanahan decided he would take an entire year to evaluate Dubas and somehow after that year Shanahan caught Shanahan with his pants down.

It's a (frank)ing mess.
- joel878

From a friend who worked at MLSE, he said Shanahan was kind of an arrogant ass. So not surprising that he may have let his ego weigh in on this decision and he didn't want his "subordinate" negotiating the way he did.

All I have, like all of us, is a sort of "maybe" . My take on the words were that Shanahan wanted them to resolve the contract and announce it together later in the week. Dubas felt that he should meet with the press with the team and the coaches - and Shanny said he respected and approved of that decision. If he had specifically not wanted it to happen, it would not have happened -that much I am sure of.

For the first part? It smacks of Don't You Want Me by Human League.

I picked you out, I shook you up
And turned you around
Turned you into someone new
Now five years later on you've got the world at your feet
Success has been so easy for you
But don't forget it's me who put you where you are now
And I can put you back down too.

You can be grateful as (frank) for those opportunities you are given, but Dubas earned the accolades he received - and he took the criticism he received as well. He had every right to ask for a contract that paid him above average rate. Likewise Shanahan had every right to decline that request or negotiate an elevated pay structure that would see him earn more.

All of that is moot now anyway. I just hope they make a smart move or two in the next few weeks.
- Monkeypunk

I can't get behind a train of thought that says the money was that big of an issue. We're talking about a team that went yeah, if you take David Clarksons insured contract, we will take Nathan Hortons uninsured contract and just pay him the millions upon millions in cash money he is owed because money completely falls out of our asses anyways.

This is going to be a fun summer of bickering between the Dubas Cult and the Anti-Dubas Brigade.

Why are you losing sleep over a GM who wasn't even fully committed to being here to see it through?
- fifty__missions

That's nonsense and you know it.

Call it posturing or whatever, he clearly still wanted to be here. Shanahan even said as such. That he told him he still wanted to be the GM. And the rumour (or was it actually reported?) was his deal was for 5 years.

I actually agree with this. There absolutely is risk. But there is also risk in doing the same thing ad nauseum. We have enough track record to see a new approach is needed.
- fifty__missions

We can all agree here. I'm worried about the acumen surrounding the names like Bowman or Chiarelli (not that he'd get it, but the idea of him is like the GM boogeyman) or whomever might be a draw. Perhaps a change in tack isn't necessarily bad - as long as they continue to approach it with structure, development, scouting, planning and so on. I would note that based on some of the later drafts and his TDL acquisitions, I think Dubas was making small moves towards the type of cohesive team people generally wanted.

This is going to be a fun summer of bickering between the Dubas Cult and the Anti-Dubas Brigade.
- mjones242

New GM in a week and we will have new brigades. Do you want to be a captain to pick sides?

From a friend who worked at MLSE, he said Shanahan was kind of an arrogant ass. So not surprising that he may have let his ego weigh in on this decision and he didn't want his "subordinate" negotiating the way he did.
- Aaron_85

I think either way it's now a non Dubas issue and a wow Shanahan has made a complete mockery of himself issue.

Shanahan was the one who decided it was a good option to leave the team in this spot by turfing the guy he gave the keys to the kingdom to. Probably the most critical juncture in this window and the president decided not having a GM and then transitioning to a new one would be a great idea.

If he even remotely had his poop together he would have fired Dubas a week ago, or he would have made the internal decision that they would not renew Dubas on June 30th, but there was a lot of work to do in the meantime and Kyle is a paid professional who is under contract to do the work. Get him to do his job next 4-6 weeks while you secure the GM you want to replace him.

I mean . . .

It sounds like Shanahan gave Dubas an offer in consultation with his agent. During that conversation they talked about hockey players, plans, and Dubas had mentioned that it was hard on his family - which Shanny acknowledged. The next day in the public presser, Dubas again reiterated that any decision he made would be in concert with his family after consultation with them due to the stresses they'd ben under. A couple of days later Dubas basically calls up and says that he's good to go, but would like the contract amount to be higher.

In the meantime Shanahan has been stewing that Dubas "doesn't want to be there" because he wanted to consult with his family and ensure they were okay, and when Dubas counters on the offer, Shanny decides to pull the plug - with no plan in place.

See the problem I have with everyone getting angry is that Dubas never accepted the first offer. A guy can make you an offer. You CAN counter it. They can stand pat, meet you in the middle, or give you what you're asking for - but to rescind it completely after offering it is a bad faith move.

If you're wondering why people in the organization are upset? That's why.

You can hate Dubas and be glad he's gone - that's cool. But that is not how you treat your personnel after you make the initial offer.
- Monkeypunk

I honestly can't believe Shanahan was allowed to do this. Like, the owners allowing it to go down, I mean.

It's just so, so bad.

And I say this with no connection to my opinion of Dubas.

We can all agree here. I'm worried about the acumen surrounding the names like Bowman or Chiarelli (not that he'd get it, but the idea of him is like the GM boogeyman) or whomever might be a draw. Perhaps a change in tack isn't necessarily bad - as long as they continue to approach it with structure, development, scouting, planning and so on. I would note that based on some of the later drafts and his TDL acquisitions, I think Dubas was making small moves towards the type of cohesive team people generally wanted.
- Monkeypunk

I think JFJ can probably be had. I mean experience is the focus right.

*it can't possibly be worse than Dubas*

I had no issues if Dubas wasn't here for next season. I mean, I understand wanting a new direction but you'd think a pretty simple task wouldn't be seemingly mishandled and left so much to be desired.

Yes Shanahan gave quite the description of the timeline since last summer. Know who does that? Someone trying to spin a story to their specific way. It's a way to tell a lie by laying so much out there that "it can't possibly have holes! Why would he be so honest?!"

Not saying there isn't some truth. Where there's smoke there's fire. What I'm saying is this oddly made Shanahan look completely innocent and threw Dubas completely under the bus. Maybe it comes out it's warranted and Shanahan is telling the complete truth but it's funny there was only Dubas words on Monday and they were questioned by some. Only Shanahan words today and it's taken as gospel.
- Aaron_85

Agreed

From a friend who worked at MLSE, he said Shanahan was kind of an arrogant ass. So not surprising that he may have let his ego weigh in on this decision and he didn't want his "subordinate" negotiating the way he did.
- Aaron_85

This is the first interview with shanahan that I got a weird vibe from him. He’s either trying to save his own ass or is a petty sob.

Like negotiate the damn contract through.

Spezza walking right away makes me think shanny isn’t being 100% truthful.

New GM in a week and we will have new brigades. Do you want to be a captain to pick sides?
- Aaron_85

It's true. We may find ourselves agreeing sooner than later.

We can all agree here. I'm worried about the acumen surrounding the names like Bowman or Chiarelli (not that he'd get it, but the idea of him is like the GM boogeyman) or whomever might be a draw. Perhaps a change in tack isn't necessarily bad - as long as they continue to approach it with structure, development, scouting, planning and so on. I would note that based on some of the later drafts and his TDL acquisitions, I think Dubas was making small moves towards the type of cohesive team people generally wanted.
- Monkeypunk

The Leafs brass will not be bringing in a Bowman or Chiarelli type. Shanahan isn't daft.

I think the real issue is that Dubas had hitched his wagon irrevocably to the Core 4. His "we can and we will" comment years ago rings very loudly and, I suspect, was a point of contention. There may also have been disagreements around keeping his handpicked coach, Keefe.

Pure speculation but the small moves may not have been viewed as enough if the Leafs brass believe the Core 4 are fundamentally flawed.

Today it's not a good thing. We still have to see how the next 6 weeks play out to get a good grasp of it.

It also feels like Shanahan may be next on the hot seat. He's the one who said today he had a gut feeling about Dubas and decided to move on. The board isn't firing themselves so he's next should things not work out. If things go south and the season is rocky, this will alllllll come back on Shanahan. Essentially, I think he's as all in on this move as Dubas was on the core.
- Aaron_85

July 1st will give us the first real sign how things are going. If Matthews' extension is done and reported, then it's fine (hopefully). Matthews has stated that the sooner the extension gets done, the better.

I guess the draft could, too, but that feels more up in the air.

The Leafs brass will not be bringing in a Bowman or Chiarelli type. Shanahan isn't daft.

I think the real issue is that Dubas had hitched his wagon irrevocably to the Core 4. His "we can and we will" comment years ago rings very loudly and, I suspect, was a point of contention. There may also have been disagreements around keeping his handpicked coach, Keefe.

Pure speculation but the small moves may not have been viewed as enough if the Leafs brass believe the Core 4 are fundamentally flawed.
- mjones242

This is true and I agree, it was time to move off of that and if he wasn't start nailing the coffin.

But that line was said years ago and recently when he would have said that he was instead saying "I'm willing to do anything it takes to win a cup".

So I'm not sure I can believe it was a factor in the end.

I honestly can't believe Shanahan was allowed to do this. Like, the owners allowing it to go down, I mean.

It's just so, so bad.

And I say this with no connection to my opinion of Dubas.
- GreatGigInTheSky

The big takeaway from today might be that if anyone has too much autonomy, it's Shanahan. The guy has no plot to lose.

I honestly can't believe Shanahan was allowed to do this. Like, the owners allowing it to go down, I mean.

It's just so, so bad.

And I say this with no connection to my opinion of Dubas.
- GreatGigInTheSky

People generally fear change. I am curious to hear what Dubas says at his next press conference. I am open to the possibility that this is not bad. Florida won the President's Trophy and then shat the bed in the playoffs. They made major changes and things have worked out ok for them. Change can be ok. Do you think their fans give a rat's ass about being a wildcard team right now? I'm of the opinion - wait and see, and GLG.

July 1st will give us the first real sign how things are going. If Matthews extension is done and reported, then it's fine (hopefully). Matthews has stated that the sooner the extension gets done, the better.

I guess the draft could, too, but that feels more up in the air.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Lest we forget Marner and Nylander.

AM34 should be the most important piece of business to attend to. 13.434x5, book it!

July 1st will give us the first real sign how things are going. If Matthews extension is done and reported, then it's fine (hopefully). Matthews has stated that the sooner the extension gets done, the better.

I guess the draft could, too, but that feels more up in the air.
- GreatGigInTheSky

I'm slightly more concerned with Matthews and Co after Spezza is said to have resigned too. He played with these guys, they stood up for him when Babcock didn't dress him for first game in Toronto. They obviously liked him too and I know most players don't simply sign a deal because of the GM but if you're Matthews how do you not sit there and go "So how do I trust MLSE to put the best team around me to win?"

I mean Tavares was fed that line for years on the Island and it's likely in part why he left. They never put a team around him.

I think either way it's now a non Dubas issue and a wow Shanahan has made a complete mockery of himself issue.

Shanahan was the one who decided it was a good option to leave the team in this spot by turfing the guy he gave the keys to the kingdom to. Probably the most critical juncture in this window and the president decided not having a GM and then transitioning to a new one would be a great idea.

If he even remotely had his poop together he would have fired Dubas a week ago, or he would have made the internal decision that they would not renew Dubas on June 30th, but there was a lot of work to do in the meantime and Kyle is a paid professional who is under contract to do the work. Get him to do his job next 4-6 weeks while you secure the GM you want to replace him.
- joel878

Brian Hayes brought it up that 5 years ago Dubas was hired right before big contracts had to be negotiated. A new GM is about to come in and do the same thing.

I agree on the firing Dubas thing a week ago. How do you go from "Yup you're our guy" to "GTFO" so quickly? It's weird that a simple thing said in a emotional press conference changed everything. Seems sus.

July 1st will give us the first real sign how things are going. If Matthews extension is done and reported, then it's fine (hopefully). Matthews has stated that the sooner the extension gets done, the better.

I guess the draft could, too, but that feels more up in the air.
- GreatGigInTheSky

The draft should give an idea because a lot of trades are done there. I don't see why they'd wait unless Matthews and MLSE were close on an extension and it falls apart.

However, I am likely in the minority here to say you run him another year, extension or not.

From a friend who worked at MLSE, he said Shanahan was kind of an arrogant ass. So not surprising that he may have let his ego weigh in on this decision and he didn't want his "subordinate" negotiating the way he did.
- Aaron_85

shammyhan and dufuss can eat their way to my bumhole🤦‍♂️

i can’t believe that this didn’t happen after kylie got buggered by pencil neck fashion plate female dog and his pappy🤦🏿‍♂️

just think of the cap space we would’ve had for a legit #1 dman to play with really and protect freddy😭

tbh I’ve been more disappointed with shammy than kylie but we’ll see what happens this next year unless shammy bails for the “good of his family”🤣

The great thing is, a new GM won't be under pressure to save his job, so he won't do a silly-ass move like trading any of the core. Dubas might have done that out of desperation. You don't trade the core. That's dumber than rat poop.

The big takeaway from today might be that if anyone has too much autonomy, it's Shanahan. The guy has no plot to lose.
- joel878

Agreed entirely

This is true and I agree, it was time to move off of that and if he wasn't start nailing the coffin.

But that line was said years ago and recently when he would have said that he was instead saying "I'm willing to do anything it takes to win a cup".

So I'm not sure I can believe it was a factor in the end.
- joel878

I'm not so willing to believe that he would consider breaking apart the Core 4. Having said that, it's a bit easier to espouse that platitude when Core 4 contract renewals are fast approaching and you have a cap that can no longer logically sustain keeping them together.

Ultimately, the shared vision between Dubas and Shanahan was fractured this past season. As I alluded to in an earlier thread, Shanny was significantly less present in the box with Dubas compared to years past. I can only presume that there were some fundamental disagreements about team makeup that remained unresolved through this negotiation period.

I can't believe that Shanahan would make a rash, petulant decision based solely on Dubas's $$$ ask. I think it has to be a combination of roster construction and, perhaps, an ask for more autonomy / powers.

Or I could be out to lunch and MLSE brass and Shanny have lost their collective marbles.

All of these things, maybe.