Something you may not love to hear but Matthew Tkachuk's shot distance in the playoffs is also further away than it was during the season.

Toronto's team season average shooting distance was 30.16 feet. In the playoffs that increased to 31.32 feet.

Florida's team season average shooting distance was 32.37 feet. In the playoffs it's been 33.58 feet.

Florida is where they are because of Bobrovsky. If we're going to nail our management for a failing, it's failing to land a goalie who can put up one of the best performances in the last 20 years in the playoffs.
- Monkeypunk

hockey is so dumb
and anyone who pretends to know the magic formula to win is full of poop

wut?!!?

im having my lawyers look into this
i used tree dead (or something like that) several days ago..maybe a week..I wont go down with out a fight

or we can just share it
- senstroll

Ah poop ok we can share - I probably missed you using it as I was not on here much if at all last week as work was insane and then I took a few days off to get the father in laws "summer ready".

Side note - anyone know any good and reasonably priced people out in Prince Edward County area who do boat floor repairs / replacement? I have a rotted plywood floor on my boat and dread the thought of doing it myself. My back hurts just thinking about it.

Did you think Paul Maurice going purple while screaming at his team on the bench late in the season vs Toronto was inspiring?

I don't believe Bruce's speech wasn't meant to inspire, it was meant to light a fire and call out BS and shake some sense into players.

I think he did what he intended to do & I'd rather it be done in the dressing room vs on the bench.

The Letterkenny coach may also be available - perhaps they need him on standby all season or just for playoff intermission appearances?

If they can't get him then they should seek to have him do some consulting with the coaching staff of the Leafs.

I mean just look at this instructional video! (NSFW - Profanity)


- Cush29

I'm taking notes for my son's season in Atoms next year.

1. You and I and everyone else have very minimal actual information on this only what was chosen to be shared and we don't even know if it's accurate as there are contradictions in some of what Shanny said vs what Dubas said.

2. Dubas provided VERY LITTLE insight into what occurred as far as timelines and what was agreed upon vs what was counter proposed etc.

3. Shanny provided his version of a very detailed (and perhaps scripted for him) account of what went down from his perspective.

4. As someone else pointed out the word "framework" was used specifically, that in itself leads one to believe nothing was in stone and anything could potentially be rediscussed or negotiated.

5. Negotiating in bad faith? This is because Dubas asked for more $? Why didn't they just say no, sorry this is our best deal? I mean then Dubas would have had to decide and potentially look like it was all about the $ if he said he passed. Missed opportunity to me from MLSE - I mean if they were really that concerned about his dedication to the team based on one press conference after a tough 2nd round loss and all that goes with that what does that say about MLSE & who would even want to work for them? Good lord they could have said to Dubas "you need to clarify your comments from the presser" and he would have got the hint and I'm sure walked back what needed to be or 'clarified' it.

6. A deal falling apart often has blame on both sides of the fence. I'm not sure how many negotiations (business related because that's what this is 100%) you've been involved in but I've had the pain of negotiating several CBA's. An 11th hour "oh we changed our mind on this item and want more" or "we forgot to say we want this until now" is VERY common. It is certainly not something that prevents a deal from being reached it's just a PITA and another thing to negotiate and settle. To say that it's "Bargaining in bad faith" is a very big leap IMO.

So yes to some it feels like Shanny/MLSE got a bit ticked off that Dubas felt he had any negotiating room at all and perhaps that influenced them enough to take their ball and go look for someone else to play with.

It very well could have been Dubas being shrewd and knowing that was an exit strategy that would play out and let him leave not looking like he quit on them and didn't want to be a GM. I don't know that I can buy into that based on who Dubas SEEMS to be as a person but business is business so you never know.

Who really knows at this point and we probably never will but now the Leafs have their 3rd GM in 10 years and I will predict by Christmas unless they are destroying the entire league their 3rd coach too.

What's the commonality of all those changes?

Shanny


End of the day if Dubas has success in Pittsburgh and Tree-living becomes Tree-dying here I think it's a fair assumption that Dubas was not the issue in Toronto no?
- Cush29

I never said dubas was the issue, i wanted him extended and keefe gone. But it seems like he is no longer part of the solution.
I liked dubas, but the team has failed under him, will that change under the tree's shade? Dunno, we'll see.

I've made it clear that if moving on from him was the path they wanted to take, then I'd accept it.

But it's not. They wanted him back. They were offering him a 5 year contract, which Dubas accepted. Then they pulled the rug from underneath it at the last second.

That's not at all how a well run organisation does things. It's hasty and emotional. And in all honestly, the Leafs should be well above that.

It's not the outcome I dislike, it's the process. It doesn't, and shouldn't, inspire confidence that they'll do the best thing, which is all that we as fans can ask for.
- GreatGigInTheSky

They didnt pull the rug out, Dubas did. Hes the one that presented new wants post conference.

1. You and I and everyone else have very minimal actual information on this only what was chosen to be shared and we don't even know if it's accurate as there are contradictions in some of what Shanny said vs what Dubas said.

2. Dubas provided VERY LITTLE insight into what occurred as far as timelines and what was agreed upon vs what was counter proposed etc.

3. Shanny provided his version of a very detailed (and perhaps scripted for him) account of what went down from his perspective.

4. As someone else pointed out the word "framework" was used specifically, that in itself leads one to believe nothing was in stone and anything could potentially be rediscussed or negotiated.

5. Negotiating in bad faith? This is because Dubas asked for more $? Why didn't they just say no, sorry this is our best deal? I mean then Dubas would have had to decide and potentially look like it was all about the $ if he said he passed. Missed opportunity to me from MLSE - I mean if they were really that concerned about his dedication to the team based on one press conference after a tough 2nd round loss and all that goes with that what does that say about MLSE & who would even want to work for them? Good lord they could have said to Dubas "you need to clarify your comments from the presser" and he would have got the hint and I'm sure walked back what needed to be or 'clarified' it.

6. A deal falling apart often has blame on both sides of the fence. I'm not sure how many negotiations (business related because that's what this is 100%) you've been involved in but I've had the pain of negotiating several CBA's. An 11th hour "oh we changed our mind on this item and want more" or "we forgot to say we want this until now" is VERY common. It is certainly not something that prevents a deal from being reached it's just a PITA and another thing to negotiate and settle. To say that it's "Bargaining in bad faith" is a very big leap IMO.

So yes to some it feels like Shanny/MLSE got a bit ticked off that Dubas felt he had any negotiating room at all and perhaps that influenced them enough to take their ball and go look for someone else to play with.

It very well could have been Dubas being shrewd and knowing that was an exit strategy that would play out and let him leave not looking like he quit on them and didn't want to be a GM. I don't know that I can buy into that based on who Dubas SEEMS to be as a person but business is business so you never know.

Who really knows at this point and we probably never will but now the Leafs have their 3rd GM in 10 years and I will predict by Christmas unless they are destroying the entire league their 3rd coach too.

What's the commonality of all those changes?

Shanny


End of the day if Dubas has success in Pittsburgh and Tree-living becomes Tree-dying here I think it's a fair assumption that Dubas was not the issue in Toronto no?
- Cush29

You know who would disagree with your outcome? Dubas.

Because your conclusion suggests that Dubas was just a inconsequential piece for 9 years (5 as GM) while Shanny was the true decision maker. I don't think that's fair to KD. I think he's a smart guy who worked his ass off trying to execute his plan. The transactions, the hires, almost all the steps taken were clearly a part of his plan and influence.

This notion that he doesn't get both the respect and the criticism for the teams output over the past 5+ years is unbelievable to me. Love him or hate this was his team. I respect what he did here ...it was good ...maybe even great ...just not great enough in the playoffs. Change doesn't have to mean finger pointing. Sometimes it's just time.

Shanny deserves the criticism for setting up the hockey department and overseeing it for the past 9 years. He is the business guy ...he vets poop for ownership ...like all Presidents of Hockey Ops do in every organization. Judge him on his hires/fires and the structure he's created. If he worked the phones and influenced transactions (I doubt it was nearly as dramatic as it's being portrayed) then that too.

So to conclude Shanny was a failure ..that's fine and it may be true ..but to get their you have to view Dubas's tenure as a failure too.

i will lay off tree living if he can sign AM
otherwise he is Tree dead to me
- senstroll

Lets hope he doesnt overpay Matthews.
He really shouldnt get a big raise imo.
Not popular opinion, i get it, but hes not worth ovet 11m.

To stay with the leafs you have to be willing to essentially make it 100% of your life. Dubas was not, he had to check with his wife first, and saying that got his employers to say “(frank) off then”.

It’s the leafs, the employees don’t come first the team does or you will no longer work for them, pretty simple.

And why are so many so upset about Dubas? His leafs got past the first round once and when they did the “offensive” team nearly got swept and couldn’t even score more than twice in a game.

He’s not that big of a loss, end of story.
- Dozzer

If any of this is true why would anyone want to work for MLSE?

I find it hard to believe your opinion is the "end of story" accurate reflection of what went down here based on the limited information we all have on it.

IF GM's are being judged by playoff success:

In the nine years with Calgary, Treliving’s Flames had a record of 362-265-73, making the playoffs five times and winning just one round twice (2015 and 2022). He also has two division titles to his name while he was there when the team won them during the 2018-19 and 2021-22 seasons.

Lets hope he doesnt overpay Matthews.
He really shouldnt get a big raise imo.
Not popular opinion, i get it, but hes not worth ovet 11m.
- Fakepartofme

i have no idea. you would hope AM realises that its tough to win when there are several big deals on the team. but im sure the agents talk them out of any discounts

anyways, I really need the Jays to start piling up wins to distract me from the stupid leafs

They didnt pull the rug out, Dubas did. Hes the one that presented new wants post conference.
- Fakepartofme

Can't disagree with this more strongly. When you make a counter offer and the other party says "(frank) off your fired" that's them pulling the rug out.

Something you may not love to hear but Matthew Tkachuk's shot distance in the playoffs is also further away than it was during the season.

Toronto's team season average shooting distance was 30.16 feet. In the playoffs that increased to 31.32 feet.

Florida's team season average shooting distance was 32.37 feet. In the playoffs it's been 33.58 feet.

Florida is where they are because of Bobrovsky. If we're going to nail our management for a failing, it's failing to land a goalie who can put up one of the best performances in the last 20 years in the playoffs.
- Monkeypunk

Well isn't that interessant, n-est-ce pas?

hockey is so dumb
and anyone who pretends to know the magic formula to win is full of poop
- senstroll

Pretty much

They didnt pull the rug out, Dubas did. Hes the one that presented new wants post conference.
- Fakepartofme

Dubas: I want to be back.

Shanahan even said it in his press conference.

Then Shanahan changed his mind after it. The contract was still being negotiated. Dubas asked for 2 things; 1) $$$. It's MLSE, they print money. Not getting something done with the guy you want is inexcusable. and, 2) A direct line to the board, so as to avoid a 3 (frank)ing day wait for those fools to make up their minds.

I think it's clear Shanahan didn't like ask #2.

Lets hope he doesnt overpay Matthews.
He really shouldnt get a big raise imo.
Not popular opinion, i get it, but hes not worth ovet 11m.
- Fakepartofme

How do you figure that?

i have no idea. you would hope AM realises that its tough to win when there are several big deals on the team. but im sure the agents talk them out of any discounts

anyways, I really need the Jays to start piling up wins to distract me from the stupid leafs
- senstroll

That'll be a long wait for a train that don't come my dude

You know who would disagree with your outcome? Dubas.

Because your conclusion suggests that Dubas was just a inconsequential piece for 9 years (5 as GM) while Shanny was the true decision maker. I don't think that's fair to KD. I think he's a smart guy who worked his ass off trying to execute his plan. The transactions, the hires, almost all the steps taken were clearly a part of his plan and influence.

This notion that he doesn't get both the respect and the criticism for the teams output over the past 5+ years is unbelievable to me. Love him or hate this was his team. I respect what he did here ...it was good ...maybe even great ...just not great enough in the playoffs. Change doesn't have to mean finger pointing. Sometimes it's just time.

Shanny deserves the criticism for setting up the hockey department and overseeing it for the past 9 years. He is the business guy ...he vets poop for ownership ...like all Presidents of Hockey Ops do in every organization. Judge him on his hires/fires and the structure he's created. If he worked the phones and influenced transactions (I doubt it was nearly as dramatic as it's being portrayed) then that too.

So to conclude Shanny was a failure ..that's fine and it may be true ..but to get their you have to view Dubas's tenure as a failure too.
- The Law

I see both the success and failure from Dubas to be honest and really wanted him to get a 2nd crack to see this through as I felt like he had turned a corner and was going to make the tough moves that needed to be made and had earned the right to see if it panned out.

5 years as a GM is (to me) way too small a window if a team is having success but just not next level success - this was the Leafs in a nutshell. Factor in any and all clean up the GM has to do from the outgoing GM and your pressed for time.

I disagree that I have to view both as success or failures equally, Shanny had more power and as such should accept more credit / blame for success / failure. Dubas has built something that Tree-living will come in and either ride to success or failure for the most part - does anyone really think he will come in and pull off a blockbuster deal and change the make up of this team dramatically? I don't.

Guess we will see.

Shanahan was a baby. Got his feelings hurt and made a decision based entirely around it. End of.

If moving on from Dubas was the plan, I could accept it. But it wasn't. Shanahan wanted to sign him to a 5 year deal. Then he got his widdle feewings hurt, and flip flopped because of it.

That's actually sad.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Dubas was the baby actually. Shanahan realized he wasn't up for the task after that press conference.

Dubas was the baby actually. Shanahan realized he wasn't up for the task after that press conference.
- rSole

You got that Bass Ackwards.

Why does one of them have to be a baby? Maybe neither of them were babies.

Shanahan was a baby. Got his feelings hurt and made a decision based entirely around it. End of.

If moving on from Dubas was the plan, I could accept it. But it wasn't. Shanahan wanted to sign him to a 5 year deal. Then he got his widdle feewings hurt, and flip flopped because of it.

That's actually sad.
- GreatGigInTheSky

So you are absolutely sure the MLSE board had nothing to do with it?

To stay with the leafs you have to be willing to essentially make it 100% of your life. Dubas was not, he had to check with his wife first, and saying that got his employers to say “(frank) off then”.

It’s the leafs, the employees don’t come first the team does or you will no longer work for them, pretty simple.

And why are so many so upset about Dubas? His leafs got past the first round once and when they did the “offensive” team nearly got swept and couldn’t even score more than twice in a game.

He’s not that big of a loss, end of story.
- Dozzer

This.

1. You and I and everyone else have very minimal actual information on this only what was chosen to be shared and we don't even know if it's accurate as there are contradictions in some of what Shanny said vs what Dubas said.

2. Dubas provided VERY LITTLE insight into what occurred as far as timelines and what was agreed upon vs what was counter proposed etc.

3. Shanny provided his version of a very detailed (and perhaps scripted for him) account of what went down from his perspective.

4. As someone else pointed out the word "framework" was used specifically, that in itself leads one to believe nothing was in stone and anything could potentially be rediscussed or negotiated.

5. Negotiating in bad faith? This is because Dubas asked for more $? Why didn't they just say no, sorry this is our best deal? I mean then Dubas would have had to decide and potentially look like it was all about the $ if he said he passed. Missed opportunity to me from MLSE - I mean if they were really that concerned about his dedication to the team based on one press conference after a tough 2nd round loss and all that goes with that what does that say about MLSE & who would even want to work for them? Good lord they could have said to Dubas "you need to clarify your comments from the presser" and he would have got the hint and I'm sure walked back what needed to be or 'clarified' it.

6. A deal falling apart often has blame on both sides of the fence. I'm not sure how many negotiations (business related because that's what this is 100%) you've been involved in but I've had the pain of negotiating several CBA's. An 11th hour "oh we changed our mind on this item and want more" or "we forgot to say we want this until now" is VERY common. It is certainly not something that prevents a deal from being reached it's just a PITA and another thing to negotiate and settle. To say that it's "Bargaining in bad faith" is a very big leap IMO.

So yes to some it feels like Shanny/MLSE got a bit ticked off that Dubas felt he had any negotiating room at all and perhaps that influenced them enough to take their ball and go look for someone else to play with.

It very well could have been Dubas being shrewd and knowing that was an exit strategy that would play out and let him leave not looking like he quit on them and didn't want to be a GM. I don't know that I can buy into that based on who Dubas SEEMS to be as a person but business is business so you never know.

Who really knows at this point and we probably never will but now the Leafs have their 3rd GM in 10 years and I will predict by Christmas unless they are destroying the entire league their 3rd coach too.

What's the commonality of all those changes?

Shanny


End of the day if Dubas has success in Pittsburgh and Tree-living becomes Tree-dying here I think it's a fair assumption that Dubas was not the issue in Toronto no?
- Cush29

And if the reverse happens?
Why not give it a year first? Everyone was willing to give Dubas a chance. Or 5.

If any of this is true why would anyone want to work for MLSE?

I find it hard to believe your opinion is the "end of story" accurate reflection of what went down here based on the limited information we all have on it.

IF GM's are being judged by playoff success:

In the nine years with Calgary, Treliving’s Flames had a record of 362-265-73, making the playoffs five times and winning just one round twice (2015 and 2022). He also has two division titles to his name while he was there when the team won them during the 2018-19 and 2021-22 seasons.
- Cush29

Money, Prestige?

What do you go to work for?