It is horrifying that some articles suggest the Flyers could trade down to get a second round pick. The next competent draft the Flyers have will be the first in over a decade. This is a team that can’t get NHL players is the first round, much less any subsequent round. They should be acquiring as many first round picks as the can get. The next time they select someone outside of the 1st round that isn’t an average or below NHL player or a goalie, then we can start assigning value to 2-7 round picks.

Lots to unpack there and once again moving the goal posts. There was no recommendation either way by Charlie in that snippet i pasted and the snippet was there solely to show how the "senior advisors" influence worked. He does go into some pros and cons later in the article but doesn't say that the Flyers shouldn't have hired Torts. He does a good job laying out the circumstances around the hire and I recommend you read it before just throwing out unsupported accusations.

Here let me help you out :

But based on my conversations with more than a few people within the organization as the season came to a close, the general belief was that the clubcould improve dramatically in 2022-23, given the right offseason roster adjustments, a strong coaching hire and (much) better injury luck. Basically,the goal for next season is to be back in the playoff hunt — not necessarily make it (though that would be the hope), but to at least be in the mix.Then, the Flyers believe, they can continue to chip away at the situation from there. Make trades, draft well, bring up prospects and slowly but surelyconstruct a contender.

If that is the plan, Tortorella makes a lot of sense in their attempt to execute it.


- Flyers_01

Now here we are a year later and they've reversed course again? Anyone see a repeated pattern and issue here? It's also interesting that according to that, the coach they brought in to get the team back to the playoffs. Preached that they need to get younger. Just more evidence of the dysfunction in the franchise.

Clearly Charlie wasn't advocating against Torts in all situations. Once again this shows how people will make unsupported statements because they don't have a rational argument and it shows your bias.

Once again, as I previously posted, nobody expected Fletcher to throw Clarke under the bus no matter what happened.

In regards to Fletcher having nothing to throw Clarke under the bus for, who knows? Did anyone know about the Makar draft room situation until someone asked an angry Clarke the right question at the right time? As I also mentioned, Fletcher is the type of person who isn't going to make his own decisions, that's part of why he had so much support in the org. Every bad decision had multiple people's signatures on it, hence nobody was accountable for them.
- Flyers_01

I keep reading from some, how it has been refuted. How and when? The evidence of the premise is overwhelming and there is no credible source or evidence that refutes it. It's so well documented that it's really a waste of time discussing it. It's akin to discussing whether the sun came up today.

It is horrifying that some articles suggest the Flyers could trade down to get a second round pick. The next competent draft the Flyers have will be the first in over a decade. This is a team that can’t get NHL players is the first round, much less any subsequent round. They should be acquiring as many first round picks as the can get. The next time they select someone outside of the 1st round that isn’t an average or below NHL player or a goalie, then we can start assigning value to 2-7 round picks.
- darkerens

Agreed that the Flyers shouldn't trade down. The Flyers need the elite talent that wins Stanley cups, not the kind that helps you be a fringe playoff team.

If their goal is to get back to being a fringe playoff team quickly trading down makes sense. If their goal is to win the Stanley Cup before the next century, they need to take their best chances to acquire elite talent and capitalize on it.

This is a team that can’t get NHL players is the first round, much less any subsequent round.
- darkerens

That is simply factually untrue.

Leonard at 7, Edstrom at 22. I’m happy.

Possible coup in Russia and Michkov likely in N.A. already.

Fedorov in '91 situation?

Draft just got even more interesting.

I'm shocked the genius and very savvy decision to invade Ukraine has backfired.

An article from 2022 .. This is the kind of influence we are talking about .. discuss


https://theathletic.com/3...hn-tortorella-coach-hire/

Why the Flyers chose Tortorella

There were plenty of other intriguing head coaching candidates on the market with
impressive track records. Why was Tortorella ultimately theFlyers’ choice?
In short, it’s because he checked the key boxes for all three of the main groups in the organization: the Fletcher-run hockey operations department, the old guard advisers and ownership.

....

Then, there are the old guard advisers, namely Bob Clarke and Paul Holmgren. My understanding is that both have long been high on the possibility of Tortorella coaching the Flyers. I don’t believe they were especially active in this summer’s process, particularly in the weeks leading up to the final decision. But it was fairly clear that they would be on board with this hire, and Fletcher has long valued their opinions, particularly Clarke, who helped give him his start in the industry years ago.
- Flyers_01

Are you sure though that this quote says what you suggests it does? I point some key phrases:

1. Note that Torts checked the boxes for all THREE of the decision-makers, of which the Fletcher-run hockey ops is listed as both distinct from "old guard" and also ahead of them (btw note also that "ownership" had a say, as one of the 3).

2. They were "not especially active"...note.

3. They were "on board" with the hire is a far cry from saying they were instrumental in the hire.

4. "has long valued their opinions" again suggests that it was an opinion worth seeking, not an opinion that drove the process.

In summary, it reads to me as though the old guard's opinions were at worst a contributory factor, but only one of several, and no evidence is provided that it was the decisive factor.

I think he’s referring to the medical issues surrounding the team… all though with the dis function of the last decade it could be anything.
- landros 2

The number one thing holding the Flyers back is the lack of a fat lady statue.

I’m perfectly fine if Michkov goes prior to our picking at 7. Skip the drama.
- Laceemup88

Any of the so-called drama are things largely out of his control. For a team that is not going to contend the next few years, the chance to grab a potentially generational talent at seven is too good to pass up.

If the Wings want TK, I would trade TK for the Wings 17th and 41st picks in this year's draft. I have the feeling however the TK is not going anywhere unless Danny is completely blown away.

Any of the so-called drama are things largely out of his control. For a team that is not going to contend the next few years, the chance to grab a potentially generational talent at seven is too good to pass up.
- Sublime55

I agree. They have to take him at #7 if he’s there.

The evidence of the premise is overwhelming and there is no credible source or evidence that refutes it.
- MJL

Other than common sense, you mean?

Didn't listen to the podcast but your synopsis sounds like pure PR and moving the goal posts. Undue influence is as ambiguous as "the right way" or "BPA". It sounds impressive in press conferences but really means nothing. I don't recall anyone ever accusing Clarke of making decisions over Fletchers head or forcing himself on the Flyers. He denied something they were never accused of to make it sound like the accusers unreasonable. I see it all the time in certain politicians on social media all the time.

Fletcher is still really close with Clarke and I assume Scott valued Barber's input or else why have him as his hockey sherpa? All that really matters were that they were in the loop and trusted voices in the loop. Fletch, the ultimate risk averse GM, was and is not going to go against a Clarke (his personal mentor) recommendation, no matter how it's framed. The deference to the senior advisors was the issue.

The 2 remain close and you will never see an outburst from Clarke like he had against Hextall with Fletcher who goes along to get along and who has hopefully seen his GM career end. Hextall, I believe to this day, has not thrown Clarke under the bus.

Nobody expected Fletcher to throw the senior advisors under the bus and the fact that he hasn't shouldn't be used as confirmation bias. I will stick with an outside source, in this one particular instance, in Charlie.
- Flyers_01

This guy gets it

That is simply factually untrue.
- MJL

Yes, they have consistently gotten NHL players in the first round, despite not picking that high most of the time. Looks like Patrick's career is over now due to brain injuries, but I still think he qualifies having played 222 games. Foerster has only played 8 but he looks like being a middle 6 winger at worst.

https://www.hockeydb.com/...aft/teams/dr00007439.html

Laughton
Couturier
Sanheim
Provorov
Konecny
Patrick
Frost
Farabee
York
Foerster

The number one thing holding the Flyers back is the lack of a fat lady statue.
- Feanor

The most notable thing this organization has done in recent memory is creating a goofy mascot…a symbol of an organization with its priorities screwed up.

Lots to unpack there and once again moving the goal posts. There was no recommendation either way by Charlie in that snippet i pasted and the snippet was there solely to show how the "senior advisors" influence worked. He does go into some pros and cons later in the article but doesn't say that the Flyers shouldn't have hired Torts. He does a good job laying out the circumstances around the hire and I recommend you read it before just throwing out unsupported accusations.

Here let me help you out :

But based on my conversations with more than a few people within the organization as the season came to a close, the general belief was that the clubcould improve dramatically in 2022-23, given the right offseason roster adjustments, a strong coaching hire and (much) better injury luck. Basically,the goal for next season is to be back in the playoff hunt — not necessarily make it (though that would be the hope), but to at least be in the mix.Then, the Flyers believe, they can continue to chip away at the situation from there. Make trades, draft well, bring up prospects and slowly but surelyconstruct a contender.

If that is the plan, Tortorella makes a lot of sense in their attempt to execute it.

Clearly Charlie wasn't advocating against Torts in all situations. Once again this shows how people will make unsupported statements because they don't have a rational argument and it shows your bias.

Once again, as I previously posted, nobody expected Fletcher to throw Clarke under the bus no matter what happened.

In regards to Fletcher having nothing to throw Clarke under the bus for, who knows? Did anyone know about the Makar draft room situation until someone asked an angry Clarke the right question at the right time? As I also mentioned, Fletcher is the type of person who isn't going to make his own decisions, that's part of why he had so much support in the org. Every bad decision had multiple people's signatures on it, hence nobody was accountable for them.
- Flyers_01

The only thing I really have focused on is the BS narrative that the old guard is some how responsible for bone headed decisions our last two GMs have made. Fletcher himself said as much about there being influence from the outsiders not being the case? Every NHL team have their own way of making decisions. Fletcher made a point of saying “he never went rouge on a decision and most of the time there was a consensus that sometimes was unanimous “…but in the end they were his decisions. As far as Charlie suggesting those within the organization clearly thought that with the right changes they could show vast improvement that was obvious in the personnel moves Fletcher made.
As far as Clarke being “angry” …that’s not what I got from the answer or the entire interview. He gave his opinion on the Hextall decision making skills and pointed to that situation as an example to why the Flyers are where they are. I didn’t necessarily agree with what Clarke said but it hasn’t exactly been refuted by others albeit Clarke mentioned Makar, when it was probably Heskinen that some of the scouts were advocating for.
As far as a bias, I wouldn’t say I have one. I will call out BS when I see it. I will listen to people that are close to the team like Bill, like Chris Therrien, like Keith Jones.

The number one thing holding the Flyers back is the lack of a fat lady statue.
- Feanor

I lean more to the birth of Gritty.

The only thing I really have focused on is the BS narrative that the old guard is some how responsible for bone headed decisions our last two GMs have made. Fletcher himself said as much about there being influence from the outsiders not being the case? Every NHL team have their own way of making decisions. Fletcher made a point of saying “he never went rouge on a decision and most of the time there was a consensus that sometimes was unanimous “…but in the end they were his decisions. As far as Charlie suggesting those within the organization clearly thought that with the right changes they could show vast improvement that was obvious in the personnel moves Fletcher made.
As far as Clarke being “angry” …that’s not what I got from the answer or the entire interview. He gave his opinion on the Hextall decision making skills and pointed to that situation as an example to why the Flyers are where they are. I didn’t necessarily agree with what Clarke said but it hasn’t exactly been refuted by others albeit Clarke mentioned Makar, when it was probably Heskinen that some of the scouts were advocating for.
As far as a bias, I wouldn’t say I have one. I will call out BS when I see it. I will listen to people that are close to the team like Bill, like Chris Therrien, like Keith Jones.
- landros 2

I am sure he is red-faced about Risto though.

I lean more to the birth of Gritty.
- landros 2

Gritty's great.

Avs get Ryan Johansen at 50% retained for rights to Galchenyuk

I am sure he is red-faced about Risto though.
- PT21

Typing on my phone from my kids bed side….not much for spell check..lol

The most notable thing this organization has done in recent memory is creating a goofy mascot…a symbol of an organization with its priorities screwed up.
- Sublime55

I snapped this a few weeks back. Thought it was a good metaphor for Flyers: old glory, current identity:

[/img]

Avs get Ryan Johansen at 50% retained for rights to Galchenyuk
- funmaster18

No Hayes to the Av’s.

Typing on my phone from my kids bed side….not much for spell check..lol
- landros 2

I figured. I like your version better than the original phrase.

No Hayes to the Av’s.
- landros 2

He is unmovable. The contract was panned from the moment it was signed. At least Hayes is getting paid. The dude’s been through a lot.