I understand that but are they going to move these pieces if they make the playoffs or just miss the playoffs? Briere could have moved them at the last draft.

They don’t just have to move the high priced vets like Couturier. Atkinson or Sanheim. He needs to move the lower prices younger talent before he ends up signing them to the same bloated immovable contracts as those players.
- psuhockey

I’d absolutely be open to moving the high priced vets and retaining salary if it meant a great haul.those are the players that for sure don’t fit the timeline.

There are many flies in your ointment. For one beginning with that there are 32 teams in the league and only one wins the Stanley Cup. The very fact that when looking at Cup winning teams, they all have elite players. All except a handful have players drafted at the top of the draft. The point isn't that more teams with a player drafted in the top 2 win the cup then don't. The point is to win the Cup, your odds are much greater to win it with a players drafted in the top 2 then without.
- MJL

All I was saying was that correlation does not equal causation and any number of "common factors" can be cited. They do not, in and of themselves, mean anything.

The very fact that when looking at Cup winning teams, they all have names. All except a handful have pluralized names. It's just as irrelevant.

I'm not saying they don't need to have elite talent. I'm not saying that the talent doesn't need to be at the top of the draft. But if the presence of top draft picks somehow, in isolation, lead to a high r^2, I'd be shocked.

I realize this may be a pedantic statistics comment, so apologies

Also, Sanheim looked good last night against Svechnikov. Not the wallflower he used to be. Dunno how he graded out by the numbers but it was nice to see him give some poop for once.

So say, the contender offers you a late first and late 2nd and we retain 50%? I don’t do that. They have to pay up big time. 1st top prospect or young roster player and a 2nd. I just don’t want to trade him for the sake of making us worse and getting a higher pick. I want premium rebuild capital.
- Hextall271

where was anyone accepting an offer like that to begin with?

If that's the best they were offered I'd keep him. I'm thinking Seeler would fetch higher than a 5thhe continues this kind of play.
- Pelle31Forever

This kind of play? He is at best a #6 NHL defenseman in this league. At best and that would depend on the level of team his is on. What would you give up for that for defense depth for a playoff run? I'm a big fan of Nick Seeler. Plays his balls off and maximizes the ability that he has. That is to be admired but he is still what he is.

Everyone associated with this franchise including some of its pundits can talk about playing the right way, building a foundation, good in the room or whatever other catchphrase they can think of but in the end talent wins. They don’t have enough of it and are still living with a precap mentality on how to obtain it.
- psuhockey

All of those qualities are to an extent nonsense and buzzwords and talking points. Not that intangibles aren't important, but they don't trump talent, skill and speed. Backed by enough depth and role players to build a team. That's the issue I have with Tortorella and why I think he's a used car salesman. He builds a chevy and tries to sell it as a Jaguar. The Chevy gets you moving but it will never get you to your ultimate destination. He hangs his hat on the intangibles. He wants a team full of grinders and hard hat players with just enough of a sprinkling of skill. Prioritizes leadership which is why he started with saying there were issues in the room. It's the opposite. A team elite skill, some hard playing skilled and talented players and a sprinkling of enough role playing grinders. That's what you need. Tortorella doesn't know how to build or coach that. It's why Gretzky said he wouldn't want to play for him. What does he see? He sees what I see. It was on display last night, even though the Flyers won. 9 times out 10, they won't in that kind of game. They certainly won't get to the Cup playing that way. To the playoffs, with enough talent, sure. Half the league makes the playoffs.

And of course we had Boston setting records last regular season only to choke like dogs in the first round.
- Feanor

Bergeron was a shadow of himself physically. Krejci was also injured. If they're healthy, they win that series and who knows what from there

100%, not a long term retain but one where we maximize the asset
- ClaudeFather

yep this year and next. Still would have an open slot this year as well as next.

Be the smart play. That being said he will be re-signed.

All of those qualities are to an extent nonsense and buzzwords and talking points. Not that intangibles aren't important, but they don't trump talent, skill and speed. Backed by enough depth and role players to build a team. That's the issue I have with Tortorella and why I think he's a used car salesman. He builds a chevy and tries to sell it as a Jaguar. The Chevy gets you moving but it will never get you to your ultimate destination. He hangs his hat on the intangibles. He wants a team full of grinders and hard hat players with just enough of a sprinkling of skill. Prioritizes leadership which is why he started with saying there were issues in the room. It's the opposite. A team elite skill, some hard playing skilled and talented players and a sprinkling of enough role playing grinders. That's what you need. Tortorella doesn't know how to build or coach that. It's why Gretzky said he wouldn't want to play for him. What does he see? He sees what I see. It was on display last night, even though the Flyers won. 9 times out 10, they won't in that kind of game. They certainly won't get to the Cup playing that way. To the playoffs, with enough talent, sure. Half the league makes the playoffs.
- MJL

I would venture to guess he sees just a tad more cliff.

All I was saying was that correlation does not equal causation and any number of "common factors" can be cited. They do not, in and of themselves, mean anything.

The very fact that when looking at Cup winning teams, they all have names. All except a handful have pluralized names. It's just as irrelevant.

I'm not saying they don't need to have elite talent. I'm not saying that the talent doesn't need to be at the top of the draft. But if the presence of top draft picks somehow, in isolation, lead to a high r^2, I'd be shocked.

I realize this may be a pedantic statistics comment, so apologies

Also, Sanheim looked good last night against Svechnikov. Not the wallflower he used to be. Dunno how he graded out by the numbers but it was nice to see him give some poop for once.
- atibus

It's not a pedantic statistics argument. It's just a plain bad argument. When 98% of the teams who win the Cup have elite players drafted in the top 2 of the draft. It's pretty clear evidence that if you have those elite players, your odds of winning the cup go up.

Sanheim has never been a wallflower. He was strong defensively last year. His issue last year was he was not attacking and playing aggressively offensively like he is this year. Playing like the attacking roving 3 zone defenseman that teams need.

So say, the contender offers you a late first and late 2nd and we retain 50%? I don’t do that. They have to pay up big time. 1st top prospect or young roster player and a 2nd. I just don’t want to trade him for the sake of making us worse and getting a higher pick. I want premium rebuild capital.
- Hextall271

no that isn't a haul and I would not move him for that. Try again at the draft.

So say, the contender offers you a late first and late 2nd and we retain 50%? I don’t do that. They have to pay up big time. 1st top prospect or young roster player and a 2nd. I just don’t want to trade him for the sake of making us worse and getting a higher pick. I want premium rebuild capital.
- Hextall271

So then you are signing him to a huge extension where the last years will become an immovable albatross overpaying for his past prime years production while also ruining the teams draft position.

That’s sounds like a great plan. Worked out great with Voracek.

It's not a pedantic statistics argument. It's just a plain bad argument. When 98% of the teams who win the Cup have elite players drafted in the top 2 of the draft. It's pretty clear evidence that if you have those elite players, your odds of winning the cup go up.

Sanheim has never been a wallflower. He was strong defensively last year. His issue last year was he was not attacking and playing aggressively offensively like he is this year. Playing like the attacking roving 3 zone defenseman that teams need.
- MJL

what term should they have given sanheim? You dont like the 8 years.

yep this year and next. Still would have an open slot this year as well as next.

Be the smart play. That being said he will be re-signed.
- hello it's me 2050

Trade deadline will tell us all we need to know about this rebuild

Trade deadline will tell us all we need to know about this rebuild
- ClaudeFather

a very big part of it.

I hope they hang around and acquire another thompson and derek grant type.

a very big part of it.

I hope they hang around and acquire another thompson and derek grant type.
- hello it's me 2050

A first to Montreal for Josh Anderson 😂. A player they could have used 5 years ago.

It's not a pedantic statistics argument. It's just a plain bad argument. When 98% of the teams who win the Cup have elite players drafted in the top 2 of the draft. It's pretty clear evidence that if you have those elite players, your odds of winning the cup go up.

Sanheim has never been a wallflower. He was strong defensively last year. His issue last year was he was not attacking and playing aggressively offensively like he is this year. Playing like the attacking roving 3 zone defenseman that teams need.
- MJL

It is a statistics argument. You just don't want to see it that way and that is fine. The fact that you don't know how to do a statistical analysis to even know it is an irrelevant data point doesn't change the fact that it's an irrelevant data point. Commonality doesn't equate to causation. If you're arguing that commonality does equate to causation then I don't know what to do for you.

I know you want to keep arguing the point because you're righter than everyone you disagree with so I'll let you get the last word in now.

I don't think the people here get it... I'm talking about riding with the flow, and living in the moment, as opposed to the constant negativity that the vocal majority love to dwell on in here. Sure the PP is putrid and must be discussed... but so must the effort and when coaches are doing well that should be noted as well as when they are not.

I get the high and mighty approach by some, but I rather discuss on an even keel... we all want more... we all want a return to a constant contender. We can only discuss OUR OPINIONS; they are merely that, no matter what the keyboard cowboys think they have going.

My point is that I believe that this forum should mirror the games and the Flyers play. When they schit the bed, call them out... when they work their arses off and win or lose, give them props rather than tear them another AH. They are what they are and on a path we keyboard cowboys cannot direct.

They might not be the Habs/Isles/Oilers/Wings/Hawks dynasty BUT this season they are fun to watch... unlike some other seasons. I have mixed feelings on Torts; don't agree with his methods but see his achievements. We are on this ride together with them... it is what it is, and riding our high horses does nada... Today the Flyers should be receiving props and not be thrown under the bus... last Tuesday, after the SJ game, they should have been torn apart for their loss.

I'm a season ticket holder who suffer ls through every single loss... but I want to be able to attend/watch games that are enjoyable. Are the Flyers mediocre? Sure they are.... Do the Flyers work their tail off and complete most games? Yes they do... Do the Flyers have enough talent to contend? Not yet, but hopefully they will... Do I know as much as the professionals working in the game? Not in the least... But after a 3 for 4 road trip where they worked hard enough, and got enough breaks to EARN their overachievements, I expect to come on a Flyers Fan forum and read some props for a bunch of young pros who are giving their all... not post after post of negativity from people who quite frankly come off as enjoying being negative (not all, you do understand).

I get it... we all want a contender... we all want a hood team once again... we all want star players.. I GET IT 100% but tearing them a new AH when they are giving their best, and actually winning does nobody any good except fir the Negative Nellies, Debbie Downers, Keyboard Cowboys riding their high horses and thinking that they are all that... and the players are merely puppets here for us to criticize when they lose, and ignore when they win.

The Flyers are playing winning hockey... the Flyers are playing fun hockey to watch... Hopefully the Flyers are on the right track.

Too many times I come in this forum and I'm bored by the back and forth arguments by the egomaniacs in here... and then there's time like this when I find Negadelphians ignoring a fine win.

I'll be honest this time; I'm NOT sorry for the lecture... I'm sorry that I came to this forum in hopes of reading some honest game breakdowns off of Bill Meltzer's fine blog; I'm better off on X (formally known as Twitter)... there I just ignore the negativity, and read the honest thoughtful Tweets (Xs)... TBH I'd rather read fanboys amongst the meaningful stuff than read the Negadelphians who are only happy when they are miserable.

The Flyers have won three straight games on the road against three quality opponents; I don't think you are all aware of it... Sorry to break the bad news to you guys.

I don't think the people here get it... I'm talking about riding with the flow, and living in the moment, as opposed to the constant negativity that the vocal majority love to dwell on in here. Sure the PP is putrid and must be discussed... but so must the effort and when coaches are doing well that should be noted as well as when they are not.

I get the high and mighty approach by some, but I rather discuss on an even keel... we all want more... we all want a return to a constant contender. We can only discuss OUR OPINIONS; they are merely that, no matter what the keyboard cowboys think they have going.

My point is that I believe that this forum should mirror the games and the Flyers play. When they schit the bed, call them out... when they work their arses off and win or lose, give them props rather than tear them another AH. They are what they are and on a path we keyboard cowboys cannot direct.

They might not be the Habs/Isles/Oilers/Wings/Hawks dynasty BUT this season they are fun to watch... unlike some other seasons. I have mixed feelings on Torts; don't agree with his methods but see his achievements. We are on this ride together with them... it is what it is, and riding our high horses does nada... Today the Flyers should be receiving props and not be thrown under the bus... last Tuesday, after the SJ game, they should have been torn apart for their loss.

I'm a season ticket holder who suffer ls through every single loss... but I want to be able to attend/watch games that are enjoyable. Are the Flyers mediocre? Sure they are.... Do the Flyers work their tail off and complete most games? Yes they do... Do the Flyers have enough talent to contend? Not yet, but hopefully they will... Do I know as much as the professionals working in the game? Not in the least... But after a 3 for 4 road trip where they worked hard enough, and got enough breaks to EARN their overachievements, I expect to come on a Flyers Fan forum and read some props for a bunch of young pros who are giving their all... not post after post of negativity from people who quite frankly come off as enjoying being negative (not all, you do understand).

I get it... we all want a contender... we all want a hood team once again... we all want star players.. I GET IT 100% but tearing them a new AH when they are giving their best, and actually winning does nobody any good except fir the Negative Nellies, Debbie Downers, Keyboard Cowboys riding their high horses and thinking that they are all that... and the players are merely puppets here for us to criticize when they lose, and ignore when they win.

The Flyers are playing winning hockey... the Flyers are playing fun hockey to watch... Hopefully the Flyers are on the right track.

Too many times I come in this forum and I'm bored by the back and forth arguments by the egomaniacs in here... and then there's time like this when I find Negadelphians ignoring a fine win.

I'll be honest this time; I'm NOT sorry for the lecture... I'm sorry that I came to this forum in hopes of reading some honest game breakdowns off of Bill Meltzer's fine blog; I'm better off on X (formally known as Twitter)... there I just ignore the negativity, and read the honest thoughtful Tweets (Xs)... TBH I'd rather read fanboys amongst the meaningful stuff than read the Negadelphians who are only happy when they are miserable.

The Flyers have won three straight games on the road against three quality opponents; I don't think you are all aware of it... Sorry to break the bad news to you guys.
- ForeverFlyer16

I do not think they are fun at watch at all.

MM 1 and 2 today = 3

he is a free agent to be. Why keep him? You plan on re-signing him?
- hello it's me 2050

I wasn't aware hea free agent. Yeah I guess you gotta take the best offer.

This kind of play? He is at best a #6 NHL defenseman in this league. At best and that would depend on the level of team his is on. What would you give up for that for defense depth for a playoff run? I'm a big fan of Nick Seeler. Plays his balls off and maximizes the ability that he has. That is to be admired but he is still what he is.
- MJL

I get it. I'm just saying "what he is" could very well be what a playoff team is lacking. In regards to his play I don't think he's a total liability in his own end. He provides physicality at a time when it ramps up in the post season.

All in all I'm not gonna be torn one way or the other whatever they decide to do with him.

I do not think they are fun at watch at all.
- hello it's me 2050

Tell it to your priest.

I don't think the people here get it... I'm talking about riding with the flow, and living in the moment, as opposed to the constant negativity that the vocal majority love to dwell on in here. Sure the PP is putrid and must be discussed... but so must the effort and when coaches are doing well that should be noted as well as when they are not.

I get the high and mighty approach by some, but I rather discuss on an even keel... we all want more... we all want a return to a constant contender. We can only discuss OUR OPINIONS; they are merely that, no matter what the keyboard cowboys think they have going.

My point is that I believe that this forum should mirror the games and the Flyers play. When they schit the bed, call them out... when they work their arses off and win or lose, give them props rather than tear them another AH. They are what they are and on a path we keyboard cowboys cannot direct.

They might not be the Habs/Isles/Oilers/Wings/Hawks dynasty BUT this season they are fun to watch... unlike some other seasons. I have mixed feelings on Torts; don't agree with his methods but see his achievements. We are on this ride together with them... it is what it is, and riding our high horses does nada... Today the Flyers should be receiving props and not be thrown under the bus... last Tuesday, after the SJ game, they should have been torn apart for their loss.

I'm a season ticket holder who suffer ls through every single loss... but I want to be able to attend/watch games that are enjoyable. Are the Flyers mediocre? Sure they are.... Do the Flyers work their tail off and complete most games? Yes they do... Do the Flyers have enough talent to contend? Not yet, but hopefully they will... Do I know as much as the professionals working in the game? Not in the least... But after a 3 for 4 road trip where they worked hard enough, and got enough breaks to EARN their overachievements, I expect to come on a Flyers Fan forum and read some props for a bunch of young pros who are giving their all... not post after post of negativity from people who quite frankly come off as enjoying being negative (not all, you do understand).

I get it... we all want a contender... we all want a hood team once again... we all want star players.. I GET IT 100% but tearing them a new AH when they are giving their best, and actually winning does nobody any good except fir the Negative Nellies, Debbie Downers, Keyboard Cowboys riding their high horses and thinking that they are all that... and the players are merely puppets here for us to criticize when they lose, and ignore when they win.

The Flyers are playing winning hockey... the Flyers are playing fun hockey to watch... Hopefully the Flyers are on the right track.

Too many times I come in this forum and I'm bored by the back and forth arguments by the egomaniacs in here... and then there's time like this when I find Negadelphians ignoring a fine win.

I'll be honest this time; I'm NOT sorry for the lecture... I'm sorry that I came to this forum in hopes of reading some honest game breakdowns off of Bill Meltzer's fine blog; I'm better off on X (formally known as Twitter)... there I just ignore the negativity, and read the honest thoughtful Tweets (Xs)... TBH I'd rather read fanboys amongst the meaningful stuff than read the Negadelphians who are only happy when they are miserable.

The Flyers have won three straight games on the road against three quality opponents; I don't think you are all aware of it... Sorry to break the bad news to you guys.
- ForeverFlyer16

Nothing wrong with your point of view. Probably a more healthy way to view things. I mean, the whole point of being a fan is to have fun. Right? Maybe you’re right in feeling this isn’t place for you. I get that feeling, myself, all the time.

Nothing wrong with your point of view. Probably a more healthy way to view things. I mean, the whole point of being a fan is to have fun. Right? Maybe you’re right in feeling this isn’t place for you. I get that feeling, myself, all the time.
- Dkos

Thanks... And it's a shame too... the potential is here withBill, and there are few alternatives. And TBH, it'll be the the same anywhere... it's the nature of the beast, and the users.

Look at Bill's Twitter account of late and his need to restrict/mute... and when have we ever seen him so defensive and sarcastic? *sigh*

Ok they can wait around a hope a #1 center or dman becomes available in trade but then the Flyers will have to have a better package then 31 other teams and the cap space to do the deal.

Or they can just actually rebuild and draft one at the top of the draft. Which way is easier to pull off?
- psuhockey

Michkov is a #1 in most drafts. They definitely need more high-end talent, but they do at least have potential high-end offensive talent in the pipeline.