All coaches talk out of both sides of their mouths sometimes, Tortorella more than most.

Example: I can't even tell you how many times Torts has said, "I'm a big believer that you play like you practice."

On Friday, we asked Torts about what Brink (about to be scratched for the third straight time) could do in practice to get himself back in the lineup. The very same coach responded with, "I don't evaluate anyone based on practice. I go by games. Everyone nowadays practices well."

Which is it? Is practice a vital part of determining who should play or sit because it predicts game performance? Or is it largely irrelevant? It can't be both. And if it's irrelevant, why are the scratches basically obligated to take daily extra skating before/after practice?

When asked what Frost can do to STAY in the lineup, Tortorella has repeatedly said, if he's going to play, it has to be in the top six and, to do that, we need offense from him (note: he's been barely getting much more than fourth line ice time even in Carolina, where he was playing well and had a nice touch-pass assist). Then, after having a single bad game and also not recording a point after four points in the previous three games, the same coach who said it wasn't fair to change the lineup while on a winning streak, does just that.

Last year, around this time -- while he was buying Frost on the fourth line for nearly a month, Tortorella was saying "He's not scoring. I don't want to hear about chances. He's not producing." (Funny, though, that he often mentions all of Foerster's scoring chances and cited scoring chances with Poeling on the ice in the LA game and ignored that the Flyers got doubled up on chances by LA over those same shifts).

Tortorella also said of Frost last year about this time -- contradicting something Rocky Thompson said in saying Frost was playing decent defense but needed to use his feet more offensively -- "If you're not scoring, give me something defensively. He's not do that, either."

Tortorella came around on Frost defensively by the end of last year although still questioning him offensively (even as he led the team in scoring over the final 2/3 of last year and then led the team in preseason scoring this year). I've said this before and will repeat it. Frost had a bad game overall against Vegas. BUT he did chip in four blocked shots -- something Torts gushes over endlessly for his golden boy players he'd sooner cut off his right hand over rather than scratch for any reason.

For Frost? No. After four points in three games and then four blocked shots in the next game, right back to the scratch list he goes. There is ZERO reason why Frost and Brink cannot both be in the lineup at the same time except that Torts has fallen in love with the idea that Ryan Poeling is a bonafide top nine player (relegating Noah Cates to the fourth line, while the coach utters words about trying to get him going again offensively -- with all due respect, that isn't going to happen with Deslauriers and Hathaway as his linemates).

I'm very happy the Flyers are winning -- it's fun to come to the rink when you're winning. There's not a forward that I individually dislike or would argue isn't a legitimate NHL player. i'll also give Tortorella credit for this: He seems to push the right buttons more often than the wrong ones in the context of a given night.

In the big picture, though, this is supposed to be year two of a rebuild. It's supposed to be a year where the rookies and under-25 player who took steps last year are put in position to take a bigger bite of the apple. Is that's what's happening with Frost scratched half the damn season, with Brink sitting for three, with Zamula still on the NHL roster mostly because he's waiver-eligible, with Cates related for five games now to the fourth line center spot because the coach won't consider even a temporary move back to a wing? With Foerster, a player with legit scoring upside, playing like a nice fourth-liner but also producing like one while on Line 1 and PP1, and the coach just fine and dandy with it?

Hell, Torts says over and over, "This is a young blueline." Is it? Because, when Ristolainen comes back within the next few days, Zamula likely sits again. That makes Noah Cates the ONLY D who could be classified as a young NHLer. The rest are either in their primes (mid-to-late 20s) or in their 30s (Seeler is 30, Staal is 36). It's actually a VETERAN blueline.

But, again, short-term picture of the 2023-24 season entering Nov. 22: there's plenty to be happy about. Playing from ahead. Playing faster. Forecheck looks improved. Transition game is better. No one in the locker room points fingers at others. Everyone is blocking shots, as asked. The goalie play has been great. The heavy emphasis on training camp conditioning skates has paid dividends so far. Those are positives.
- bmeltzer

Bill, this is one of the best summations of the Torts puzzle I've ever read. The question becomes one of sustainability with the team. Ultimately, the players all know what's going on and I suspect, at some point, they'll start losing respect for him because of blatant hypocrisy and unfair treatment of some players while favoring others who are guilty of the same chronic mistakes that the disfavored players are accused of. It's a good question.

Bill, this is one of the best summations of the Torts puzzle I've ever read. The question becomes one of sustainability with the team. Ultimately, the players all know what's going on and I suspect, at some point, they'll start losing respect for him because of blatant hypocrisy and unfair treatment of some players while favoring others who are guilty of the same chronic mistakes that the disfavored players are accused of. It's a good question.
- Letterkenney

I think it's clear that Torts isn't here long term. He's got 2 years left on his 4 yr contract and I think he stated he plans to retire. My biggest worry is who will be here to take his place as we move in to (hopefully) regular playoffs then contention. It'll have to be a hire from outside the org IMO.

Did torts ignore you at a presser or something? Are you really going to have a meltdown over this coach? Because they aren’t doing it the way you want?

“(frank)ing embarrassing” - that’s another quote
- black_francis

You certainly are entitled to express your opinion, but this comment is pretty disrespectful to the host of the blog that you get to read daily.

You certainly are entitled to express your opinion, but this comment is pretty disrespectful to the host of the blog that you get to read daily.
- missingmike

I think he’ll be ok.

Everyone’s wallowing in sh!t because we are winning but not with the guys we want them to win with.

Its pathetic.

Did torts ignore you at a presser or something? Are you really going to have a meltdown over this coach? Because they aren’t doing it the way you want?

“(frank)ing embarrassing” - that’s another quote
- black_francis

I have no personal differences with Torts. It's strictly hockey. And it's far from a meltdown. It's constructive criticism, which also includes positive comments. While a team is winning is a good time for such critiques (coaches themselves often do so).

If you can't tell the difference, you are welcome to excuse yourself from the board.

I have no personal differences with Torts. It's strictly hockey. And it's far from a meltdown. It's constructive criticism, which also includes positive comments.

If you can't tell the difference, you are welcome to excuse yourself from the board.
- bmeltzer

It comes across as whiny, Bill.

“golden boy players”? You’re really laying it on thick.

I think it's clear that Torts isn't here long term. He's got 2 years left on his 4 yr contract and I think he stated he plans to retire. My biggest worry is who will be here to take his place as we move in to (hopefully) regular playoffs then contention. It'll have to be a hire from outside the org IMO.
- Hextall271

Objectively speaking, he's been good at getting the most out of players that he can. The downside is the price to be paid in the cohesiveness of the team and the long term development of the young players by letting them learn from their mistakes as opposed to being punished for them. The talking out of both sides of his mouth can only be tolerated for so long before getting the most out of players eventually leads to apathy and disrespect.

Did torts ignore you at a presser or something? Are you really going to have a meltdown over this coach? Because they aren’t doing it the way you want?

“(frank)ing embarrassing” - that’s another quote
- black_francis

He had a well-reasoned post supported by specific examples while also acknowledging the short term positives.

Your post did not refute anything nor did it add to the conversation in any way.

It comes across as whiny, Bill.
- black_francis

Why do you keep coming here?

When asked what Frost can do to STAY in the lineup, Tortorella has repeatedly said, if he's going to play, it has to be in the top six and, to do that, we need offense from him

Farabee and Brink were not in the "top six" in the last game. They got 3rd line minutes.

So Torts saying Frost has to be in "top six" or nowhere is complete nonsense. He could have been centering Farabee and Brink, and not have been in the "top six".

He had a well-reasoned post supported by specific examples while also acknowledging the short term positives.

Your post did not refute anything nor did it add to the conversation in any way.
- Flyers_01

Seems like guy complaining about "whining" is the one doing the most whining.

It comes across as whiny, Bill.
- black_francis

To you, maybe. I don't care if it does. I'm no harsher on Torts than I am on any coach. I loved most things AV did his first season, and he was awful thereafter. I like Mike Yeo a lot as a person, but pointed out things I didn't like or feel were improving. I didn't like how half-hearted Lavy was about needed adjustments. I didn't like Hak's handing of Konecny at the time.

No coach is beyond reproach just as no player (or GM or scout) is. I am proud of the respect that I have earned with hockey people and take it seriously. If I criticize or question something, there is a reason. I may be right or wrong. But if it's praise, a defense or a criticism, I mean it.

He had a well-reasoned post supported by specific examples while also acknowledging the short term positives.

Your post did not refute anything nor did it add to the conversation in any way.
- Flyers_01

It’s a 12 paragraph tirade on why he thinks Frost should play and why Torts is the devil 😂

I’m sure coaches with 1300 games under their belt love taking constructive criticism from writers who have played ball hockey.

I think he’ll be ok.

Everyone’s wallowing in sh!t because we are winning but not with the guys we want them to win with.

Its pathetic.
- black_francis

Bill certainly will be fine. Your comment says more about you than Bill or other poster that disagrees with you.

Appreciate that post Bill. Truly.

Can’t help myself though…

Is this some new trend? Piss poor development, or the hiring of the wrong people? Poor strategies when it comes to building a team in the new NHL?

Why not address the pigs that advocated for the hiring of John Tortorella. Who deem him to be a “spiritual leader”. Who wanted to saddle a new GM with this HC as some sort of untouchable.

That’s where the real problem lies, even if John is definitely a problem himself.

“golden boy players”? You’re really laying it on thick.
- black_francis

What term would you use to describe players who never get benched or scratched no matter how poorly they play?

Cam Atkinson is getting murdered defensively this season, and Torts hasn't even noticed.

Objectively speaking, he's been good at getting the most out of players that he can. The downside is the price to be paid in the cohesiveness of the team and the long term development of the young players by letting them learn from their mistakes as opposed to being punished for them. The talking out of both sides of his mouth can only be tolerated for so long before getting the most out of players eventually leads to apathy and disrespect.
- Letterkenney

That's often spoken about Tortorella. I think that's a false narrative. How do you measure that he gets the most out of teams and players that he can? How do you quantify what the most is? He's had some really good teams, yet has only gotten past the 2nd round of the playoffs, once in the last 16 years as an NHL coach. It's fair to say that he does improve teams. He gets teams playing a cohesive team game. In my view, that's not a high bar and not an accomplishment that I would anoint a coach as a really good coach on. The question is, with his pretty much lock on the path that the franchise is taking. Regardless of what anyone says, that's the reality. Is this the path to the Cup? To becoming a legit contender? Is he the guy to develop young players and properly rebuild this team? I emphatically say hell no. Can he coach this team to the playoffs? Sure but half the teams in the league make the playoffs. I'm not satisfied with that anymore and I won't be fooled by what is currently going on. Due to experience and being satisfied with that in the past. I know better now.

I think it's clear that Torts isn't here long term. He's got 2 years left on his 4 yr contract and I think he stated he plans to retire. My biggest worry is who will be here to take his place as we move in to (hopefully) regular playoffs then contention. It'll have to be a hire from outside the org IMO.
- Hextall271

Patrick Roy?

Appreciate that post Bill. Truly.

Can’t help myself though…

Is this some new trend? Piss poor development, or the hiring of the wrong people? Poor strategies when it comes to building a team in the new NHL?

Why not address the pigs that advocated for the hiring of John Tortorella. Who deem him to be a “spiritual leader”. Who wanted to saddle a new GM with this HC as some sort of untouchable.

That’s where the real problem lies, even if John is definitely a problem himself.
- flyer_nutter

I wish you would stop with "pigs" labeling. Someone making perceived poor decisions and what they think is best. No matter how flawed, does not make someone a "pig"

It’s a 12 paragraph tirade on why he thinks Frost should play and why Torts is the devil 😂

I’m sure coaches with 1300 games under their belt love taking constructive criticism from writers who have played ball hockey.
- black_francis

Hardly...it is a great read showing how Torts says one thing, and does another. This, in the longterm, will build distrust between coach and players. He is a problem.

It’s a 12 paragraph tirade on why he thinks Frost should play and why Torts is the devil 😂

I’m sure coaches with 1300 games under their belt love taking constructive criticism from writers who have played ball hockey.
- black_francis

You've now jumped both feet in jackassdom. So let me help you out... same way you came in. Goodbye.

Why do you keep coming here?
- Letterkenney

I’m here to make friends 😂

You've now jumped both feet in jackassdom. So let me help you out... same way you came in. Goodbye.
- bmeltzer

it’s just constructive criticism

it’s just constructive criticism
- black_francis

No, it's either either deliberate pig-headedness or a severe lack of reading comprehension and understanding of nuance. And I have no time or patience to suffer fools. You are a fool.

it is no rebuild. Yes it is vet defense and anyone can see that despite the nonsense they spew. Little shocked he kept Zamula in over Belpedio.

Just not the right coach for where the flyers should be at.

Bill can you see the flyers being "buyers" in 2 months if they are still in the playoff mix? If so what kind of buyers would they be more than likely in your opinion.
- hello it's me 2050

Yes. It was obvious from the very beginning. They sold a rebuild to the fans only because the results were poor. Watch them pivot if they keep winning.