I'm curious as to why there is so much backlash against Tortorella. I do read the issues people bring up, but has anyone forgotten that this organization was in total chaos with back-to-back coaches from 2019-2021 ? Why are we assuming they would have found someone else to move things forward ? (just because we are seeing some traction now...) That traction is because of THIS coach. I coached travel baseball where it was MANDATORY to win. It is the same way in professional sports. Why would we take the players off the hook and not expect to play to win just because "we are developing" ??? I watched this for years in my son's travel leagues. Teams who played only to develop got trounced. And the players stagnated. Players on teams where the coaches taught and expected winning were much more successful. This is the culture change, not drafting first rounders (look at Buffalo). Development involves putting players in situations with expectations. Expectations force accountability. They'll never develop into anything without accountability - and that's what Torts is doing.
- BluehorseShoe64

I'm curious as to why you're curious. I understand that coaches want to win. Then why is he playing guys on a nightly basis while sitting guys who would give you a better chance of winning while also developing? You can tell me definitively that Staal should be playing over Zamula? Deslauriers over Brink? Poehling over Frost? Staal looks cooked, Deslauriers doesn't do much outside of fighting and bleeding scoring chances against, and Poehling is playing up in the lineup when he should be getting 4th line minutes (and I like his game).

With all due respect to you coaching travel baseball, I don't think youth baseball players are held to the same standard as professional athletes, or youth coaches held to the same standard as professional and nor should they be. Not really a great comparison. Also, if a kid isn't playing I'm sure the parent would give you an earful. You think Frost's dad is on the horn with Tortorella on a daily basis? Maybe he should be.

Deslauriers is actually pretty solid defensively. It's the complete black hole that he is offensively that is the issue. So much so that the opposition scores 78% of the goals when he is on the ice.

Except there's zero accountability for Torts' golden boys. That's obvious.

Cates has had a dreadful season, and only comes out of the lineup due to injury. Deslauriers is a total liability and is on track for 82 GP. Staal is a mess, but hasn't been healthy scratched once.
- Feanor

What makes you think everything is a conspiracy ? Golden Boys ? Cates is another players just like Laughton. He is able to move up & down the lineup and play anywhere - but doesn't complain. And that's the key. Coaches can't manage teams with complaining, selfish players. Cates has been moved to a defense ONLY role, and he's doing his best. Also, they are struggling a bit due to the insertion of 2 veteran players back into the line up. Any chemistry from lines formed last year are not as evident this year due to evaluating the long term depth of the players under contract. If Coots has another back injury, then you will see it revert back. But until then, Coots is a better point producer in addition to being a responsible center. He deserves his spot. Deslauriers was a GM mistake, and Torts is stuck with it. They are getting the most out of it until better players come available for the roster. If, and this is a big if, Gauthier joins the team next year, it will push a player like Deslauriers out to the 2 extra forwards. Staal looks like a bad idea now - how did we know the young defensemen were going to do this well ? I think we forget how bad the blue line was. I actually think they should sit Staal for Bepidio. He gave the defensemen better skating and puck movement, fed the strategy of supporting the rush, providing more options for playmaking. But they're stuck with Staal until the time comes to make a decision, for example, the trade deadline. But who is going to sign him if he sits in the booth !! You could say these are good problems to have. At least they found out what they have back there. Zamula has made some mistakes, but geez, is a +10 ! Who saw that coming ? I think things are better than what we're seeing on paper currently.

What makes you think everything is a conspiracy ? Golden Boys ? Cates is another player just like Laughton. He is able to move up & down the lineup and play anywhere - but doesn't complain. And that's the key. Coaches can't manage teams with complaining, selfish players. Cates has been moved to a defense ONLY role, and he's doing his best. Also, they are struggling a bit due to the insertion of 2 veteran players back into the line up. Any chemistry from lines formed last year are not as evident this year due to evaluating the long term depth of the players under contract. If Coots has another back injury, then you will see it revert back. But until then, Coots is a better point producer in addition to being a responsible center. He deserves his spot. Deslauriers was a GM mistake, and Torts is stuck with it. They are getting the most out of it until better players come available for the roster. If, and this is a big if, Gauthier joins the team next year, it will push a player like Deslauriers out to the 2 extra forwards. Staal looks like a bad idea now - how did we know the young defensemen were going to do this well ? I think we forget how bad the blue line was. I actually think they should sit Staal for Bepidio. He gave the defensemen better skating and puck movement, fed the strategy of supporting the rush, providing more options for playmaking. But they're stuck with Staal until the time comes to make a decision, for example, the trade deadline. But who is going to sign him if he sits in the booth !! You could say these are good problems to have. At least they found out what they have back there. Zamula has made some mistakes, but geez, is a +10 ! Who saw that coming ? I think things are better than what we're seeing on paper currently.
- BluehorseShoe64

I'm curious as to why there is so much backlash against Tortorella. I do read the issues people bring up, but has anyone forgotten that this organization was in total chaos with back-to-back coaches from 2019-2021 ? Why are we assuming they would have found someone else to move things forward ? (just because we are seeing some traction now...) That traction is because of THIS coach. I coached travel baseball where it was MANDATORY to win. It is the same way in professional sports. Why would we take the players off the hook and not expect to play to win just because "we are developing" ??? I watched this for years in my son's travel leagues. Teams who played only to develop got trounced. And the players stagnated. Players on teams where the coaches taught and expected winning were much more successful. This is the culture change, not drafting first rounders (look at Buffalo). Development involves putting players in situations with expectations. Expectations force accountability. They'll never develop into anything without accountability - and that's what Torts is doing.
- BluehorseShoe64

I am in no way expecting them to not play to win. Its WHO they are playing that is the problem. Using your analogy, what they are doing in my opinion is bringing in a bunch of out of town ringers at the expense of the locals to try to win. Instead of trying to teach the locals how to win. The real problem being the ringers arent any better, and they get the same result in the end.

What makes you think everything is a conspiracy ? Golden Boys ? Cates is another players just like Laughton. He is able to move up & down the lineup and play anywhere - but doesn't complain. And that's the key. Coaches can't manage teams with complaining, selfish players. Cates has been moved to a defense ONLY role, and he's doing his best. Also, they are struggling a bit due to the insertion of 2 veteran players back into the line up. Any chemistry from lines formed last year are not as evident this year due to evaluating the long term depth of the players under contract. If Coots has another back injury, then you will see it revert back. But until then, Coots is a better point producer in addition to being a responsible center. He deserves his spot. Deslauriers was a GM mistake, and Torts is stuck with it. They are getting the most out of it until better players come available for the roster. If, and this is a big if, Gauthier joins the team next year, it will push a player like Deslauriers out to the 2 extra forwards. Staal looks like a bad idea now - how did we know the young defensemen were going to do this well ? I think we forget how bad the blue line was. I actually think they should sit Staal for Bepidio. He gave the defensemen better skating and puck movement, fed the strategy of supporting the rush, providing more options for playmaking. But they're stuck with Staal until the time comes to make a decision, for example, the trade deadline. But who is going to sign him if he sits in the booth !! You could say these are good problems to have. At least they found out what they have back there. Zamula has made some mistakes, but geez, is a +10 ! Who saw that coming ? I think things are better than what we're seeing on paper currently.
- BluehorseShoe64

Where exactly did he say it was a conspiracy? It's simply asking for similar standards to apply. Then you state it's about Cates being able to move up and down the lineup and not complain? I stopped reading there.

I'm curious as to why you're curious. I understand that coaches want to win. Then why is he playing guys on a nightly basis while sitting guys who would give you a better chance of winning while also developing? You can tell me definitively that Staal should be playing over Zamula? Deslauriers over Brink? Poehling over Frost? Staal looks cooked, Deslauriers doesn't do much outside of fighting and bleeding scoring chances against, and Poehling is playing up in the lineup when he should be getting 4th line minutes (and I like his game).

With all due respect to you coaching travel baseball, I don't think youth baseball players are held to the same standard as professional athletes, or youth coaches held to the same standard as professional and nor should they be. Not really a great comparison. Also, if a kid isn't playing I'm sure the parent would give you an earful. You think Frost's dad is on the horn with Tortorella on a daily basis? Maybe he should be.
- TobyFlenderson

How do good teams develop young talent and ice the most competitive lineup at the same time? Would Zamula be in the lineup for Colorado or Vegas? If Boston had to choose between Staal and Zamula who would they be playing?

I am in no way expecting them to not play to win. Its WHO they are playing that is the problem. Using your analogy, what they are doing in my opinion is bringing in a bunch of out of town ringers at the expense of the locals to try to win. Instead of trying to teach the locals how to win. The real problem being the ringers arent any better, and they get the same result in the end.
- MBFlyerfan

This argument makes sense to me.

How do good teams develop young talent and ice the most competitive lineup at the same time? Would Zamula be in the lineup for Colorado or Vegas? If Boston had to choose between Staal and Zamula who would they be playing?
- Dkos

Legitimate cup contending teams put player development behind winning, as they should. For example, Tippett had a hard time staying in the lineup in Florida. That is not the situation with the Flyers.

What makes you think everything is a conspiracy ? Golden Boys ?
- BluehorseShoe64

You should ask, Bill, since "golden boy players" is a term I've borrowed from him. But I never said it was a conspiracy, just bad coaching from a dinosaur.

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...p?thread_id=185769&page=1

Frost had a bad game overall against Vegas. BUT he did chip in four blocked shots -- something Torts gushes over endlessly for his golden boy players he'd sooner cut off his right hand over rather than scratch for any reason.

See the 11/27 Torts presser to hear Torts talk about putting winning games first. He also stated learning how to win is part of a players development.

Then he should be fired not doing his job.
- Feanor

Sure, and while we are at it, let's be sure to do what MJL wants and replace the entire front office from Hefferty on down.

I want them to play all young developing players who are NHL ready over older players who have no future with the team. If you know anything about me, which you don't. I'm against tanking. You don't have the facts and are posting from a position of being uninformed.
- MJL

Obviously Zamula is not NHL ready and instead of letting him get crushed every game and letting him lose confidence they will play him in situations where he can exceed.

Brink is almost NHL ready but just quite have the stamina needed, so he will sit once in awhile.

It's like you are upset that they team dares to win. They should immediately stop trying to win and play rookies.

Am I happy that they are winning, hell yeah. Do i know that the winning comes at a cost of a better draft pick, yes. But I finally can watch my Flyers and enjoy the games

See the 11/27 Torts presser to hear Torts talk about putting winning games first. He also stated learning how to win is part of a players development.
- jd250

Players don't learn how to win on a below bubble playoff team. Players don't learn how to win by not playing.

Most of us are able to put a thought together without being manipulated by a coaches press conference or what we read in the media.

Obviously Zamula is not NHL ready and instead of letting him get crushed every game and letting him lose confidence they will play him in situations where he can exceed.

Brink is almost NHL ready but just quite have the stamina needed, so he will sit once in awhile.

It's like you are upset that they team dares to win. They should immediately stop trying to win and play rookies.

Am I happy that they are winning, hell yeah. Do i know that the winning comes at a cost of a better draft pick, yes. But I finally can watch my Flyers and enjoy the games
- WhiskeyMan

Zamula is not NHL ready? Based on what? Are you kidding me? Brink does not have a stamina issue.

You have the situation completely wrong. I want them to try and win with the young players who are part of the future. Not put the future aside to try and win when they have no realistic chance of actually winning. I want the team to do what it takes to win. In order to do that, they have to acquire and develop better players.

You may be satisfied with a near .500 team and some meaningless regular season wins that won't amount to anything and enjoying the games. That's not enough for me.

Accountability, culture and standard are all BS buzzwords and smoke and mirrors. That's not what wins in the NHL. Talent, skill and speed with strong coaching behind it, is what wins. The used care salesman speeches have hoodwinked so many. That's what the used car salesman, Tortorella is selling. He has nothing else.
Also not sure why some think you can't try to win with young players in the lineup. As if you play the young players, you're giving up on the ice.
This is not your son's travel league. This is the NHL.
- MJL

It's smoke and mirrors to you, because you are an armchair coach. Coaching is not that simple. There's a management piece to it, balancing contract commitments and free agent player expectations. Staal didn't sign here to sit in the booth. They will likely keep him until they can offload him for a draft pick at the trade deadline. I don't want him in the lineup either.
My point about the travel league is that talent cannot be seen or realized without putting players in situations requiring accountability. Maybe you can't see it, and you have to resort to negativity calling it b.s. Sports is the same no matter what.
Not talking about little league here. I coached 13-17 year olds playing against the best teams on the east coast. The best moments were when we put trust in players in critical situations. Players either embrace it or they collapse under the pressure. In summary, the game is mental too. I saw some of the most talented players who couldn't take the pressure of having to make a clutch play. Conversely, I saw players who weren't as talented totally shine in those moments. It's not as cut & dry as you described. If that were the case, then you would never see any first round busts. And you would never see a player like Tom Brady or Brock Purdy. Do you think Brock Purdy is mega talented ? He's there because he is a hard working, self confident individual. If he was all talent then he wouldn't have been drafted last. Open your eyes.

Obviously Zamula is not NHL ready and instead of letting him get crushed every game and letting him lose confidence they will play him in situations where he can exceed.

Brink is almost NHL ready but just quite have the stamina needed, so he will sit once in awhile.

It's like you are upset that they team dares to win. They should immediately stop trying to win and play rookies.

Am I happy that they are winning, hell yeah. Do i know that the winning comes at a cost of a better draft pick, yes. But I finally can watch my Flyers and enjoy the games
- WhiskeyMan

Amen

It's smoke and mirrors to you, because you are an armchair coach. Coaching is not that simple. There's a management piece to it, balancing contract commitments and free agent player expectations. Staal didn't sign here to sit in the booth. They will likely keep him until they can offload him for a draft pick at the trade deadline. I don't want him in the lineup either.
My point about the travel league is that talent cannot be seen or realized without putting players in situations requiring accountability. Maybe you can't see it, and you have to resort to negativity calling it b.s. Sports is the same no matter what.
Not talking about little league here. I coached 13-17 year olds playing against the best teams on the east coast. The best moments were when we put trust in players in critical situations. Players either embrace it or they collapse under the pressure. In summary, the game is mental too. I saw some of the most talented players who couldn't take the pressure of having to make a clutch play. Conversely, I saw players who weren't as talented totally shine in those moments. It's not as cut & dry as you described. If that were the case, then you would never see any first round busts. And you would never see a player like Tom Brady or Brock Purdy. Do you think Brock Purdy is mega talented ? He's there because he is a hard working, self confident individual. If he was all talent then he wouldn't have been drafted last. Open your eyes.
- BluehorseShoe64

Actually I'm not a coach at all. Neither are you. That's the first thing you have wrong. However I know more about NHL hockey then you do obviously. An NHL coach does not have to balance contract commitments. Nor does he have to play a washed up vet long past his prime. Do you recall Tortorella's statement before the season, that Staal is not going to play every game? How do you find out if a player can handle the pressure or develop the ability to handle the pressure? Not by not playing. Did you ever hear Michael Jordan's comment on how many game winning shots he missed? Brady and Purdy were there because they could play! Simple as that. How did they find that out? What you don't realize is that just like you claim that coaching is not cut and dry. Neither is scouting and talent evaluations. Top players slip through the cracks and are poorly scouted. Players who aren't drafted turn out to be stars.
Some have been brainwashed by talk of accountability, culture and standard. All nonsense that the Flyers have been perpetually selling. Which is why they're still going nowhere in the big picture. They're buzzwords that symbolize Tortorella's limits as a coach.

Injury saving Torts from himself, now if ND can get an mysterious 16 week mild flu, that would be great.

Amen
- BluehorseShoe64

You claim to be a coach and agree that Zamula is not NHL ready?

I'm curious as to why you're curious. I understand that coaches want to win. Then why is he playing guys on a nightly basis while sitting guys who would give you a better chance of winning while also developing? You can tell me definitively that Staal should be playing over Zamula? Deslauriers over Brink? Poehling over Frost? Staal looks cooked, Deslauriers doesn't do much outside of fighting and bleeding scoring chances against, and Poehling is playing up in the lineup when he should be getting 4th line minutes (and I like his game).

With all due respect to you coaching travel baseball, I don't think youth baseball players are held to the same standard as professional athletes, or youth coaches held to the same standard as professional and nor should they be. Not really a great comparison. Also, if a kid isn't playing I'm sure the parent would give you an earful. You think Frost's dad is on the horn with Tortorella on a daily basis? Maybe he should be.
- TobyFlenderson

How do you know ? Have you experienced travel ball ? I coached for 10 years. Last year in the world series Rhys Hoskins committed error after error in the playoffs, costing the Phillies extra base runners, runs and eventually led to losses. In travel ball, a lot of coaches would have benched him. They take no prisoners. Forget about the parents, the players want to WIN. They will hold each other accountable, and believe me, they do. There's nowhere to hide on a roster with 13 players. So in many ways, it is a lot more pressure to deliver than a professional baseball team with 40 players. We didn't play in leagues where spots were guaranteed. You had to earn your spot every weekend. Players got benched or their playing time adjusted according to performance. Travel tournaments are 4-5 game, single elimination championships, no time for a lot of mistakes. Development is already assumed. I mean, Torts is playing the kids. But he is also expecting results - a tricky challenge. I tip my hat to him.

I'm glad that we have a coach for the Flyers who has the guts to take on the responsibility for success of the organization on his back because he knows what it takes to win in this league. Go Flyers !

p.s. you got caught up in baseball vs. hockey, and my point was about teaching accountability and a winning mentality. I compare it to the "PREVENT" defense in football. Playing not to lose. It is an approach with well documented problems.

Legitimate cup contending teams put player development behind winning, as they should. For example, Tippett had a hard time staying in the lineup in Florida. That is not the situation with the Flyers.
- MJL

Are you saying that Florida had given up on developing Tippett by not putting him in the lineup every night? If they didn't make that trade for Giroux what would have become of Tippett?

I'm glad that we have a coach for the Flyers who has the guts to take on the responsibility for success of the organization on his back because he knows what it takes to win in this league. Go Flyers !


- BluehorseShoe64

No he doesn't! His formula for building a team, style of play, player development and deployment has not won anything in almost 20 years. He has only taken one team past the 2nd round of the playoffs once in his last 16 seasons as an NHL coach since 2005. His formula does not win in today's NHL, even more so in the modern game.

I think it's antithetical to prioritizing development first. When development is the No. 1 priority, you live with some losses due to miscues by your youngest, least experienced players at critical junctures of some games. It's done in the interest of seeing how well these players learn from such mistakes and make the right play in vital moments as they gain experience.

Doing it the other way is, in reality, prioritizing the immediate goal of squeezing out as many points as you can muster. If a young player can already handle those situations routinely and reliably, you aren't so much working on developing him at this point because he's already an NHL regular.

All that being said, I already knew that Tortorella prioritizes wins first and do not blame him for it. He's not a "teaching coach" in the Terry Murray in LA mold in the first decade of the 2000s. Torts is who he is and, if he's your coach, it's part of the deal that the game-to-game will always be his number one priority even if the organizational priority is development. He's also not a coach who is going to willingly (except in the preseason) allow Hockey Ops to make lineup decisions or press him to use A.B.C in certain situations.

Like or dislike it, the Flyers' "triumverate" setup isn't just lip service. Torts and Jonesy wield a lot of influence in weighing in on roster building, although Briere gets the final say on the roster. Briere and Jones get to we in on lineups and usage but Tortortella gets the final say. Briere and to a lesser extent, Torts, weigh in on what the overriding messaging from Hockey Ops should be in public commuincations but those ultimately go to Jonesy to decide.
- bmeltzer

what a mess this franchise has become. No 1 boss to answer to or make decisions. This will turn out well no doubt.

Are you saying that Florida had given up on developing Tippett by not putting him in the lineup every night? If they didn't make that trade for Giroux what would have become of Tippett?
- Dkos

I'm saying that they thought they were a contender and put player development behind winning. Which is why a talented player like Tippett was not a regular in the lineup. I'd be perfectly okay with that approach if the Flyers were a legit contending team and were scratching young players in favor of winning. Obviously, they're not.