This! No two rebuilds are the same and there are many variations of them. A rebuild that worked in 2000 might not, probably won't, work in 2010 and that is different from a rebuild in 2020.

But it's fair for fans to compare and contrast them and essential management does......... Speaking for myself, and IIC many others, during the last 5 yrs of StanBow all I wanted was a plan, any plan, and follow thru with it for better or worse. Much easier to live with failure that way than just being a rudderless ship in an ocean.

That said I'm on board with the total teardown as the prospect pipeline was barren other than some legit D prospects. .........

You been watchin Philly and their soft rebuild. Very fun to watch but they'll be drafting 10tish. Are Tippet, Frost, Foerster, Konecny, Farrabee enough of a core to build around with upcoming picks being 10-15 as you add free agents and thru trades?
- Mr Ricochet

That's been the basic point today. While every situation is indeed unique, plenty of commonality occurs. Some posters have expressed concern about the state of KFC's progress to date. Expecting 80+ points at this time in the process is not based in the reality of rebuilds. Some are faster than others; none are that fast.

As I remember players like Havlat, Sharp, Versteeg were here before Toews and Kane got here. They had players like Lang, Lapointe, Jason Williams, Lalime and they had a pretty good season before The Gold Dust Twins got here. Name the players they gave up to acquire Havlat, Sharp and Versteeg. They did not mortgage the future to acquire those players.

When you drafted Bedard you escalated the rebuild whether you realize it or not. That kid can play and you can't wait for all these prospects to make it to the NHL. If you think all these prospects are going to live up to expectations I have a bridge for sale.

You don't have to get stupid with money but, if the opportunity is their to acquire better players you owe him and the fans that. Edmonton tried to rebuild through the draft and they still haven't won squat and they have McDavid and Draisaitl. Happily ever after often fails.

What's the difference between their 1st and 4th line? The answer is: Bedard.
- McCOVEY

I've read this pretty much since they won the lottery and agree to an extent, but what does it mean?

We should know it doesn't mean Lardis, Misiak, Nazar, Moore or ANY prospect develops faster. Right? So does it mean, the rebuild is accelerated/escalated, the Hawks spend assets, higher draft picks/prospects are traded for a Timo Meir or Nylander now?

What do people mean when the say getting Bedard accelerates the rebuild? I agree in that they will win sooner cuz he's so good but really in no other way except maybe the 5yr rebuild to being a decent threat bumps up to 4yrs.

That's been the basic point today. While every situation is indeed unique, plenty of commonality occurs. Some posters have expressed concern about the state of KFC's progress to date. Expecting 80+ points at this time in the process is not based in the reality of rebuilds. Some are faster than others; none are that fast.
- mohel

Ok, but you could also say the rebuild and all of it's possibilities has been the point since the organIzation announced they will be tearing it down to the studs. Then everyone jumped in with their opinion on how it should look after the tear down.

Unless a fan is a pure homer he/she had to realize when you open the season with an 18 yr old rookie 1C, a 21 yr old rookie 2C and 3 rookies penciled in every night on defence what management's goal was.

I think most knew but some are having buyer's remorse as he/she is fed the medicine of what it's like to live thru a total tear down rebuild.

Man, after the last 5 yrs of StanBow I'm ok with ANY damn plan but really like the tear down cuz the pipeline was so bad. But, I'd add I agree with many like me who are now saying how well can the kids develop getting crushed every night? One might be able to twist my arm and add a couple legit middle 6 vet free agents to term in the offseason to allow for proper developing.

Edit: This team and their prospects both in the Bigsb and pipeline are gonna look a lot different at yrs end than they do know. We only have 25% of the season played, so lots to unfold both good and bad.

Some are faster than others; none are that fast.
- mohel

Oh, I forgot to highlight this good point you make... Yes, all rebuilds are different but the common denominator is they all take time.

Bedard is good enough to break most of the modern rookie scoring records if he had some help.

That doesn't impact them in the standings, that doesn't block younger kids but it would certainly help his "development" and it would be a heck of a lot more entertaining if they were chasing something.

The team they have out there right now is dreadful. It's mostly an AHL team.

Certainly they missed something scouting Donato. Maybe giving AA money wasn't the best idea. And they couldn't have foreseen the Perry situation. Having a contingency plan for Hall probably would have been a good idea.

Either way the team should have been better this year than last year and it is embarrassing how bad the forward group is.

There is no justifiable reason to leave $10 million plus of cap space unused and be this bad.

As for the Dmen, they are going to have some big decisions to make very soon with Korchinski, has talent but he is over his head, they can't sit him and have him not playing, they have to petition the league to play him in Rockford. Best to send him to WJC and perhaps back to WHL to end the year.
- stevefrmglencoe

Gotta disagree, Steve....... KK has had a rough stretch but he hasn't been overwhelmed in the NHL. Now, that could change in a month but IMO he'll do enough while getting valuable NHL reps as he's developing.

And I'm a guy who thought ok, let him win a job in camp but going by watching him a good bit last yr in the WHL, the Memorial Cup and WJC did not expect him to make the NHL roster.

Gotta disagree, Steve....... KK has had a rough stretch but he hasn't been overwhelmed in the NHL. Now, that could change in a month but IMO he'll do enough while getting valuable NHL reps as he's developing.

And I'm a guy who thought ok, let him win a job in camp but going by watching him a good bit last yr in the WHL, the Memorial Cup and WJC did not expect him to make the NHL roster.
- Mr Ricochet

This debate about KK development has become trite simply because next year he will stumble first then hopefully with AHL sojourn he may be an improved but still not yet ready or able to perform all too well. I am betting it will be his third year when he begins to show his ware and actually contribute. Presently he is merely trying to survive and not really contributing too much

Just because he made the team and may not return to junior level for a spell, is NOT really room to get excited what he will contribute this season.

Our expectations should not be very high but we may be encouraged that he isn’t swimming and holding on without a life preserver. Richardson and Dean are good in coaching. And playing AHL next season is a good experience for a young kid thrust into the spotlight.

Vlasic serves as an example of the goodness which may be attributed to stepping down ti AHL where a prospect can engage in a league where he can grow and improve. This appears to be a tonic for gifted players so we hope that KK goes this route

I’ve tried to take a step back and look at “both sides” of the rebuild argument. I was (and still am) all for the complete wash out of old players. I am on board with building up the prospects and draft capital (to a point).

Where I’m having a problem is, I think everyone was in agreement that it was a bit dangerous to have too many rookies in the lineup. I actually think they have a reasonable amount for what they are trying to do, but the problem is that the rest of the team is not strong enough to provide support for the young guys to develop. They don’t need to be world beaters, but the majority of their games are spent chasing the puck and pinned in their own end. Even in their wins, they have limited amounts of chances/sustained pressure.

I’ve seen people here say we should expect a “competitive” hockey team. Not for a playoff spot, no. But during games, 100% yes. They shouldn’t be getting completely overwhelmed and they are most nights.

I’ve hammered this point too many times to count, but they have had back to back 11 pick drafts, and they currently have 8-9-10 the next three (before KD makes any other moves). I think it will be a complete mismanagement of assets to make all of those picks. They have multiple firsts and seconds in the next three years. You can use SOME of those picks to acquire some decent talent (not to mention the abundance of extra cap space).

I think you have to stagger the talent a bit and part of that is to actually have some as the young guys come up. Just my view on it.

I agree with getting Bedard a line mate who can help take heat off of 98. Maybe eventually Bedard will voice some input as to who he'd like that to be and give KFC a target.

I agree with getting Bedard a line mate who can help take heat off of 98. Maybe eventually Bedard will voice some input as to who he'd like that to be and give KFC a target.
- 6628

This season or next?

I’ve tried to take a step back and look at “both sides” of the rebuild argument. I was (and still am) all for the complete wash out of old players. I am on board with building up the prospects and draft capital (to a point).

Where I’m having a problem is, I think everyone was in agreement that it was a bit dangerous to have too many rookies in the lineup. I actually think they have a reasonable amount for what they are trying to do, but the problem is that the rest of the team is not strong enough to provide support for the young guys to develop. They don’t need to be world beaters, but the majority of their games are spent chasing the puck and pinned in their own end. Even in their wins, they have limited amounts of chances/sustained pressure.

I’ve seen people here say we should expect a “competitive” hockey team. Not for a playoff spot, no. But during games, 100% yes. They shouldn’t be getting completely overwhelmed and they are most nights.

I’ve hammered this point too many times to count, but they have had back to back 11 pick drafts, and they currently have 8-9-10 the next three (before KD makes any other moves). I think it will be a complete mismanagement of assets to make all of those picks. They have multiple firsts and seconds in the next three years. You can use SOME of those picks to acquire some decent talent (not to mention the abundance of extra cap space).



I think you have to stagger the talent a bit and part of that is to actually have some as the young guys come up. Just my view on it.
- Chunk

Don't have an issue with any of what you're saying and like I posted previously I think there was a best case scenario with some of the vets that KFC picked up.

Obviously not all of that's worked out but I do like his pivot to getting Beauvellier using the '24 fifth rounder to acquire him. He fits the bill afa the traits the Hawks have stated they are looking for when drafting players and if he works out could see them resign him in the offseason.

I could see KFC making another trade like this in season and we'll see how he uses some of his Cap Space in the offseason. They have a lot of their own players to sign but should still have plenty of space to add a couple players.

Time will tell but seems like some posters feel the offseason or two that Davidson has been at the helm should already be bearing fruit. Even if the games were closer, having spent enough time here, I'm reasonably sure some of the same people would still be losing their minds if it didn't translate to wins.

I’ve tried to take a step back and look at “both sides” of the rebuild argument. I was (and still am) all for the complete wash out of old players. I am on board with building up the prospects and draft capital (to a point).

Where I’m having a problem is, I think everyone was in agreement that it was a bit dangerous to have too many rookies in the lineup. I actually think they have a reasonable amount for what they are trying to do, but the problem is that the rest of the team is not strong enough to provide support for the young guys to develop. They don’t need to be world beaters, but the majority of their games are spent chasing the puck and pinned in their own end. Even in their wins, they have limited amounts of chances/sustained pressure.

I’ve seen people here say we should expect a “competitive” hockey team. Not for a playoff spot, no. But during games, 100% yes. They shouldn’t be getting completely overwhelmed and they are most nights.

I’ve hammered this point too many times to count, but they have had back to back 11 pick drafts, and they currently have 8-9-10 the next three (before KD makes any other moves). I think it will be a complete mismanagement of assets to make all of those picks. They have multiple firsts and seconds in the next three years. You can use SOME of those picks to acquire some decent talent (not to mention the abundance of extra cap space).

I think you have to stagger the talent a bit and part of that is to actually have some as the young guys come up. Just my view on it.
- Chunk

Imo, this has begun since the Hall injury and the Perry departure. Until then, most games were competitive.

Maybe they can get some big contracts at the TDL that will fill those holes and lead to more competitive losses. As HawkintheD points out, though, the board isn't interested in competitive losses - many already have lost their stomach for the process.

I don't want to use real assets for "feel good" players to make fans feel good. I'd take the contract of a couple overpaid vets (with sweetener) at the TDL.

My biggest concern with the Hawks has nothing to do with the on ice product this year. My concern is when the Hawks ice a competitive lineup, and they will, how is the Jones contract going to (frank) up the salary cap, the on ice talent and possibly the team chemistry?

My biggest concern with the Hawks has nothing to do with the on ice product this year. My concern is when the Hawks ice a competitive lineup, and they will, how is the Jones contract going to (frank) up the salary cap, the on ice talent and possibly the team chemistry?
- paulr

Hopefully, it becomes a problem.

In the next three years, two guys who are good will need deals - Bedard and Vlasic. Nobody currently in the minors will bust the budget at this point. The unsigned prospects will be on an ELC for at least the next three years, after which Jones will have three years left.

If any of the currently unsigned kids (or those in the minors) become stars during their ELC , they'll need a big money deal then. I guess it could prevent the Hawks from signing a UFA to a huge deal that will also become a boat anchor deal.

Few, if any, of the current kids and prospects will become UFA's during the Jones deal. The risk is that several become so good that the team needs to give them large deals before then, causing a squeeze. Assuming the cap hasn't gone up enough, Jones' contract will be traded (along with sweeteners).

Imo, this has begun since the Hall injury and the Perry departure. Until then, most games were competitive.

Maybe they can get some big contracts at the TDL that will fill those holes and lead to more competitive losses. As HawkintheD points out, though, the board isn't interested in competitive losses - many already have lost their stomach for the process.

I don't want to use real assets for "feel good" players to make fans feel good. I'd take the contract of a couple overpaid vets (with sweetener) at the TDL.
- mohel

I'm curious why he traded for Beauvillier 1 year deal instead of Garland 3 year deal. Still wants the salary cap flexibility? Why, he must have some kind of plan. There's always a playbook to rebuilding. Next couple of years will be interesting. Maybe Beau is his kind of player? We'll see.

Does anyone think Vlasic performance is affected by losing? No one likes it but he's going in doing his job better than the other 5 on any given night. Losing sucks for sure but just like winning games, it all hinges on each individual player doing their own job better or as well as their opponent.

My biggest concern with the Hawks has nothing to do with the on ice product this year. My concern is when the Hawks ice a competitive lineup, and they will, how is the Jones contract going to (frank) up the salary cap, the on ice talent and possibly the team chemistry?
- paulr

Exactly right. It's easy to say that S. Jones' contract isn't a factor, and in terms of reaching the cap floor that is true, but how long will that remain the case?.

Ask yourself, trying as it may be without the consideration of whatever status his contract implies, what exactly does Jones do well? He is not a good defenseman. Even at his size he rarely wins board battles, he reads plays poorly and is out of position frequently, he tends to wrap pucks around the boards or flip them out instead of making direct outlet passes, when he does make a pass, he is average at best. He is not anything more than ok in the offensive zone, he is not dynamic, is NOT a PP QB, does not dictate that the opposition compensate for him. Not a great shot, not a great passer, not great vision or reading of plays. So, outside of being a minute eater, what does S. Jones do well?.

Now, like you say, lets look down the line a bit. If the youngsters continue to develop, how do you fit a $9.5m 4th/5th defenseman into the equation. Does he pout because he isn't #1, doesn't get PP time, isn't named Captain? Some of this may happen sooner rather than later.

My biggest concern with the Hawks has nothing to do with the on ice product this year. My concern is when the Hawks ice a competitive lineup, and they will, how is the Jones contract going to (frank) up the salary cap, the on ice talent and possibly the team chemistry?
- paulr

I don't see Jones or his contract anywhere in scope or magnitude as the issue. Sure six more years until 2030. The Cap will continue to FINALLY go up, with 4 million coming sooner than later. He has more talent than themes of the forwards in our current liner, and when his StanBo deal gets close to the end, they will have options with landing places for him.

It is as if we have fast forwarded the team building discussion past the reality of the present losing team.

Vlasic and no one likes losing.

If the finished 1st to last and the lottery is won by two others we drop to #4 and I am not so sure I would have the conviction to go forward there, but tha is where the upgrade still is needed. And my board on Lines has the top four forwards, not b/c I necessarily think they belong there but more that taking one of the young defenders here seems a bit more of a luxury, whatever the risk.
https://www.lines.com/nhl/drafts

The desperation we all are expressing here has a lot to do with a fix coming with one of the first two 2024 draft picks at forward, and they are both going to college afterward in 2024-25, so something will happen to this offense in the summer, if they can convince an impact guy to buy in.

I wish that I could see past the present...not guess who of the kids at all three positions actually CAN aspire to excellent pros.

Honestly I cannot.

Maybe when the prospects leaving college arrive there will be skills that the group sees are going to help and we do get better next year.

After seeing Kyle from Chicago almost willing to trade his entire 2nd round of 2023 picks to move up for Oliver Moore, who no one else drafted as early as Kyle wanted to, I am not so sure I trust his ability to trade to get real answers for next year, unless they throw money at impact UFA's.

I don't see Jones or his contract anywhere in scope or magnitude as the issue. Sure six more years until 2030. He has more talent than themes of the forwards in our current liner, and when his StanBo deal gets close to the end, they will have options with landing places for him.
- wiz1901

That’s right Wiz, and $9.5M today swill seem like $7M in a couple of years due to cap increase. Looks like the projection for next year’s cap is $87.7M, which is >$4M increase.

I’ve tried to take a step back and look at “both sides” of the rebuild argument. I was (and still am) all for the complete wash out of old players. I am on board with building up the prospects and draft capital (to a point).

Where I’m having a problem is, I think everyone was in agreement that it was a bit dangerous to have too many rookies in the lineup. I actually think they have a reasonable amount for what they are trying to do, but the problem is that the rest of the team is not strong enough to provide support for the young guys to develop. They don’t need to be world beaters, but the majority of their games are spent chasing the puck and pinned in their own end. Even in their wins, they have limited amounts of chances/sustained pressure.

I’ve seen people here say we should expect a “competitive” hockey team. Not for a playoff spot, no. But during games, 100% yes. They shouldn’t be getting completely overwhelmed and they are most nights.

I’ve hammered this point too many times to count, but they have had back to back 11 pick drafts, and they currently have 8-9-10 the next three (before KD makes any other moves). I think it will be a complete mismanagement of assets to make all of those picks. They have multiple firsts and seconds in the next three years. You can use SOME of those picks to acquire some decent talent (not to mention the abundance of extra cap space).

I think you have to stagger the talent a bit and part of that is to actually have some as the young guys come up. Just my view on it.
- Chunk

You're right the support around the rest of the team is pretty bad. The rookies aren't the problem aside from Reichel having a dreadful start.

Donato, Johnson, other Johnson, Entwhistle, Raddysh, Katchouk, Guttman - these are all bottom 6 (probably closer to 4th liners) and AHL players. Kurashev is an enigma.

My biggest concern with the Hawks has nothing to do with the on ice product this year. My concern is when the Hawks ice a competitive lineup, and they will, how is the Jones contract going to (frank) up the salary cap, the on ice talent and possibly the team chemistry?
- paulr

Jones isn't that bad.

He's just not especially great at anything.

But he's going to provide reliable, unexciting, somewhat frustrating but never back breaking hockey.

Is that worth 9.5 million? Probably not. Does it have value and is it a tough role to fill? Definitely. They could do worse.

Pierre Lebrun reporting that word coming out of the Board of Governors meeting is that the cap will go up around 4.2M next season to 87.7M. That means the floor will go up correspondingly, putting that close to 66M. KD will have to spend about 30M to get to the floor.

There are nine players with contracts for next year. A lot of RFA's to sign - Vlasic, Reichel, Phillips, Entwistle, Gutman, R. Johnson, Raddysh, Katchouk, Roos, but aside from Vlasic and maybe Phillips, who's going to get more than 1 to 2M?

A veteran goalie at a few million will be needed. Even with these contracts and maybe a rookie or two like Nazar on an ELC, there would still be about 6-8M just to reach the floor and a few roster spots available to sign or obtain some decent forward help.

Pierre Lebrun reporting that word coming out of the Board of Governors meeting is that the cap will go up around 4.2M next season to 87.7M. That means the floor will go up correspondingly, putting that close to 66M. KD will have to spend about 30M to get to the floor.

There are nine players with contracts for next year. A lot of RFA's to sign - Vlasic, Reichel, Phillips, Entwistle, Gutman, R. Johnson, Raddysh, Katchouk, Roos, but aside from Vlasic and maybe Phillips, who's going to get more than 1 to 2M?

A veteran goalie at a few million will be needed. Even with these contracts and maybe a rookie or two like Nazar on an ELC, there would still be about 6-8M just to reach the floor and a few roster spots available to sign or obtain some decent forward help.
- boilermaker100

The only reason it goes up $4M in this economy is because they want teams out of cap hell and the escrow will go up as well.

That’s right Wiz, and $9.5M today swill seem like $7M in a couple of years due to cap increase. Looks like the projection for next year’s cap is $87.7M, which is >$4M increase.
- Angotti

Yeah, I think that's a fair way to look at it. The Jones contract only becomes a problem when it limits the team from paying someone else who is more valuable to the team. Maybe by 2026-27 it will be more of an issue, but even then I think they may still have enough flexibility depending on many factor we don't know yet.

By around the 26/27 season, the Jones cap hit will be roughly equal to what would have been an ~8 million dollar contract when his extension was signed, in term of % of the cap.

It will never be a bargain but I still think Jones will do better as the team improves around him. The low production from his this young season is in big part due to the sputtering powerplay He is part of that issue, but also I would say in general the Hawks PP has been struggling to find some rhythm in general.

Don't have an issue with any of what you're saying and like I posted previously I think there was a best case scenario with some of the vets that KFC picked up.

Obviously not all of that's worked out but I do like his pivot to getting Beauvellier using the '24 fifth rounder to acquire him. He fits the bill afa the traits the Hawks have stated they are looking for when drafting players and if he works out could see them resign him in the offseason.

I could see KFC making another trade like this in season and we'll see how he uses some of his Cap Space in the offseason. They have a lot of their own players to sign but should still have plenty of space to add a couple players.

Time will tell but seems like some posters feel the offseason or two that Davidson has been at the helm should already be bearing fruit. Even if the games were closer, having spent enough time here, I'm reasonably sure some of the same people would still be losing their minds if it didn't translate to wins.
- HawkintheD

I was interested in the Beauvillier pick up as well. Technically a top six-type talent in theory. I’d like to see more of these types actually.

I don't see Jones or his contract anywhere in scope or magnitude as the issue. Sure six more years until 2030. The Cap will continue to FINALLY go up, with 4 million coming sooner than later. He has more talent than themes of the forwards in our current liner, and when his StanBo deal gets close to the end, they will have options with landing places for him.

It is as if we have fast forwarded the team building discussion past the reality of the present losing team.

Vlasic and no one likes losing.

If the finished 1st to last and the lottery is won by two others we drop to #4 and I am not so sure I would have the conviction to go forward there, but tha is where the upgrade still is needed. And my board on Lines has the top four forwards, not b/c I necessarily think they belong there but more that taking one of the young defenders here seems a bit more of a luxury, whatever the risk.
https://www.lines.com/nhl/drafts

The desperation we all are expressing here has a lot to do with a fix coming with one of the first two 2024 draft picks at forward, and they are both going to college afterward in 2024-25, so something will happen to this offense in the summer, if they can convince an impact guy to buy in.

I wish that I could see past the present...not guess who of the kids at all three positions actually CAN aspire to excellent pros.

Honestly I cannot.

Maybe when the prospects leaving college arrive there will be skills that the group sees are going to help and we do get better next year.

After seeing Kyle from Chicago almost willing to trade his entire 2nd round of 2023 picks to move up for Oliver Moore, who no one else drafted as early as Kyle wanted to, I am not so sure I trust his ability to trade to get real answers for next year, unless they throw money at impact UFA's.
- wiz1901

Celebrini is a freshman at BU. He may come out like Fantilli did after a year at Michigan. I agree with Eiserman spending at least a year in college and being a minimum of 2 years away.

Wiz, what do you think the timeline is for guys already in the system? Nazar turning pro next year? Does he make the team next year? Moore another year in college probably? Greene maybe leaves college, signs and spends time at Rockford? Ludwinski and Hayes graduate to Rockford.

So not much help from the prospect forwards until 25-26. Then how much of an impact will they really have? I seriously think KD has to obtain some quality forwards beginning this summer. No question he has money to spend. Unless he wants another top 5 pick in 2025, he can't go into next year with basically the same forward group of the oft injured Hall (how's he going to be after his knee surgery anyway), some journeymen (Donato, Foligno if brought back, AA) and a bunch of 3rd-4th liners/AHL types like Entwistle, R. Johnson, Katchouk, Raddysh, Anderson. Even if Reichel comes to life, he alone won't be enough to change the outlook on the team next season.