You don't say?


Surely that doesn't trump a poll of posters on here. Obviously, those analysts, scouts, coaches and execs don't have a brain.
- MJL

Weird that people keep saying that the Leafs are overrated, overhyped, etc... but it really seems that they seriously don't realize how good Mitch objectively is:

2A MITCH MARNER

Why he's here
Marner is one of the best wingers in the world, but it’s difficult to separate him from the other wingers in this tier who hold similar claim.

They can all score around 100 points and massively tilt the ice thanks to their incredible ability with the puck. They’re big-time needle-movers who can control the game and drive their own line from the wing — a rare feat. There’s a reason the top two tiers are littered with centers. Marner and those around him are the exception as elite wings that a championship team can be built around.

In theory, that’s true. What sets Marner apart from the other wingers in this tier is his defensive smarts — he’s legitimately blossomed into one of the league’s best defensive forwards. Being a Selke finalist last season proves that, and there was some love from the panel to move Marner up for that reason. One analyst called him a “top 10 player.”

But in practice, the playoff stuff is hard to ignore, and it’s why he stays in 2A. To Marner’s credit, he had his best playoffs yet with 14 points in 11 games while outscoring opponents 10-5. But until Toronto goes farther, it’s going to be a tough reputation to shake. Being placed in the same tier as a proven playoff performer like Kucherov doesn’t help.

“I think Mitch is a really good player,” one coach who wanted to move Marner down said. “But at the end of the day, his physical stature combined with not having the same level of poise and deception and smarts that (Kucherov) has I think limits him.”

Weird that people keep saying that the Leafs are overrated, overhyped, etc... but it really seems that they seriously don't realize how good Mitch objectively is:
- Tomahawk

There is definitely an issue with the makeup of the Leafs roster but the issue is certainly not Marner or Matthews.

Again, anecdotal. You don't become a Selke finalist by not playing against and not matching up against other teams top players. MdDavid and McKinnon play a speed game. A game that Marner is well equipped to play. Last season Marner finished 3rd in Selke voting and Barkov finsihed 8th. If Barkov is heads above Marner defensively, why was that? If you want to show me factual evidence that Marner got creamed in those matchups or doesn't matchup against top players. I'd be happy to take a look at that.



Why do you compare points with Barkov to goals with Marner? Barkov was under a point per game. Marner had 14 points in 11 games. Over a point per game average. Barkov's team going further is a team accomplishment, not an individual player issue. The discussion is who is the better player. Not what team is better. If we use your standard, that makes Barkov a better player than Connor McDavid because Florida went further in the playoffs than Edmonton did. Barkov disappeared in the Cup finals.
- MJL

You can call it anecdotal all you want. You’re confident in your argument because we both know that no coach would be foolish enough to match him up with them so it can never be proved. Marner plays a speed game but both McDavid and Mac are speedier and so much stronger.

Barkov has a Selke and Marner doesn’t. I’m only saying it twice. The Selke is conflated with points and there’s no real science to winning it like some other awards. But Barkov’s only real contemporary for the last half a decade is Bergeron. Another center. There’s a reason few wingers win a Selke.

You used points because Marner doesn’t score many goals. I used both goals and points. The team going further was in response to the comment SSB made. Different conversation. Barkov got a lower body injury in Game 3 against Carolina and it was obvious that he wasn’t himself in the SCF. It’s twisted logic to say that my comment is saying Barkov is better than McDavid.

You haven’t swayed my way of thinking on this and I haven’t swayed yours. I’m good with it. It’s been a good discussion. Have a good night.

Weird, because The Athletic did their annual player tiers (with input from "front offices around the league... analysts, scouts, coaches and execs") and Marner graded higher than Barkov.

He was in the same 2A tier as Crosby, Kaprizov, Kuch, Rantanen and Robertson.



- Tomahawk

Those guys are sacred cows and know so much more than everyone else.

Those guys are sacred cows and know so much more than everyone else.
- Minnyhock

I really hope Toronto plays Florida in the first round 😂

You can call it anecdotal all you want. You’re confident in your argument because we both know that no coach would be foolish enough to match him up with them so it can never be proved. Marner plays a speed game but both McDavid and Mac are speedier and so much stronger.


- Minnyhock

I disagree completely. You may think you know that but you don't. I don't share that opinion simply because Marner is a world class defensive forward who can play against anybody. I'm not calling it anecdotal. It simply is.

Barkov has a Selke and Marner doesn’t. I’m only saying it twice. The Selke is conflated with points and there’s no real science to winning it like some other awards. But Barkov’s only real contemporary for the last half a decade is Bergeron. Another center. There’s a reason few wingers win a Selke.


- Minnyhock

Marner was a finalist for the Selke last season. Barkov was not. Showing that Barkov is not heads above Marner defensively as you claimed. When so few wingers win the Selke and a winger is a finalist for the award, what does that tell you? It tells me that he is exceptional defensively to get that consideration.

You used points because Marner doesn’t score many goals. I used both goals and points. The team going further was in response to the comment SSB made. Different conversation. Barkov got a lower body injury in Game 3 against Carolina and it was obvious that he wasn’t himself in the SCF. It’s twisted logic to say that my comment is saying Barkov is better than McDavid.


- Minnyhock

No, I used points to make it a fair comparison when you erroneously tried to compare goals to points. Apparently you didn't realize that Marner scored goals at a higher rate last year than Barkov did in the playoffs. Marner has scored 30 goals in back to back seasons with a career high of 35 goals. That's a strong total. He has a shot at 30 again this season. Comparitively, Barkov has also had 2 30 goal seasons in his career to date with a career high of 39. He only has 12 goals this season. Not much difference there. What is twisted logic is you bringing up team accomplishment in a conversation over who is the better player. My response perfectly illustrated why your comment there was misguided in that context.

You haven’t swayed my way of thinking on this and I haven’t swayed yours. I’m good with it. It’s been a good discussion. Have a good night.
- Minnyhock

Same to you. Enjoyed the debate. Take care.

Devils, Isles and Bolts all lose tonight. I think the Pens may be the biggest threat in taking that 3rd spot in the Metro away from the Flyers. Gotta take them down on Sunday. Just looked at the schedule and the Pens don't play on Saturday. Just love how Buttman gives them a cushy schedule every year. They prolly have the fewest back to backs in the league. Flyers having to play them the next afternoon after playing the Rags Saturday. F U Buttman!!

I really hope Toronto plays Florida in the first round 😂
- ClaudeFather

Wouldn't have any bearing on the conversation at hand.

Those guys are sacred cows and know so much more than everyone else.
- Minnyhock

Well in this case they do since they're channeling the opinion of NHL peeps.




Marner v Hughes v Barkov is all splitting hairs. They're all objectively close.

Panarin tho... yeah, the execs weren't too keen on him. He's a good three tiers below Mitch.

Wouldn't have any bearing on the conversation at hand.
- MJL

Can you feel the landslide?

Wouldn't have any bearing on the conversation at hand.
- MJL

The individual play of the players and outcome of the series certainly would. Use your head Cliff.

Can you feel the landslide?
- Tomahawk

Oh yea baby!

The individual play of the players and outcome of the series certainly would. Use your head Cliff.
- ClaudeFather

The outcome of that series would show who the better team is. Not who the better player is between Marner and Barkov. Are you really this clueless?

Well in this case they do since they're channeling the opinion of NHL peeps.




Marner v Hughes v Barkov is all splitting hairs. They're all objectively close.

Panarin tho... yeah, the execs weren't too keen on him. He's a good three tiers below Mitch.
- Tomahawk

The Athletic is always offering me a $1/mo subscription. All those execs are not successful. Lots of trashing of Flyer execs here. The NHL has franchises that lose money and they reward failure with giving more money to those franchises. I respect their opinion but they’re all talking heads with a $1 product.

The individual play of the players and outcome of the series certainly would. Use your head Cliff.
- ClaudeFather

You’re not backing a winner when you go down this road. In fact you’re very much showing weakness, if “Hello it’s me” is the idol you look up to.

If the Flyers could add either player tomorrow, who would you want, Marner or Barkov?
- ClaudeFather

it's obviously Barkov

Ouch..Button ranks Gauthier 1 NHL-affiliated prospect, has elite written all over him..

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/cu...-prospects-list-1.2079455

The whole situation with him sucks. Danny tried, but we will be talking about that trade for a while.

I like Drysdale...but I don't think he is close to a #1 dman. I don't really get the impression he is going to be anything more than a #3 dman, running the second pp.
- TheFreak

drysdale is (frank)ing 21 years old

Ouch..Button ranks Gauthier 1 NHL-affiliated prospect, has elite written all over him..

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/cu...-prospects-list-1.2079455

The whole situation with him sucks. Danny tried, but we will be talking about that trade for a while.

I like Drysdale...but I don't think he is close to a #1 dman. I don't really get the impression he is going to be anything more than a #3 dman, running the second pp.
- TheFreak

I think you are wrong about Drysdale. Look how York has developed over the last 2 years under Shaw. Drysdale has a much higher ceiling than York, first he is an excellent skater, has good vision and offensive instincts and is learning a new defensive system. I have already seen Drysdale improve since he has been here and it's only going to get better as he gets used to things. I think he has the skill to be a top pairing defenseman and a top PP QB.

As far as Gauthier, we'll see. I don't even think he is the best player at BC right now, but there is something else he has to worry about. Sing it Swift:

Cause karma is the thunder
Rattling your ground
Karma's on your scent like a bounty hunter
Karma's gonna track you down
Step by step from town to town

Keep in mind that Button is often wildly wrong.
- Tomahawk

As are most. All these guys can do is compare players based on skill set and performance at lower levels. How their skills translate, whether they get unlucky with injuries and if they are drafted by the right team at the right time are just some factors that determine if a player succeeds or not. I think most are wrong way more than they are right, because it's a really hard thing to project.

drysdale is (frank)ing 21 years old

- 2Real

What has Drysdale done in 4 years in the league to show he is a top pairing dman? he skates pretty, but he hasn't exactly done very much..he has 4 points and is a -8 in 15 games here.

Overall this season he has 9 points in 25 games and is a -10.

How do you see this as a top pairing performance?

I think you are wrong about Drysdale. Look how York has developed over the last 2 years under Shaw. Drysdale has a much higher ceiling than York, first he is an excellent skater, has good vision and offensive instincts and is learning a new defensive system. I have already seen Drysdale improve since he has been here and it's only going to get better as he gets used to things. I think he has the skill to be a top pairing defenseman and a top PP QB.

As far as Gauthier, we'll see. I don't even think he is the best player at BC right now, but there is something else he has to worry about. Sing it Swift:

Cause karma is the thunder
Rattling your ground
Karma's on your scent like a bounty hunter
Karma's gonna track you down
Step by step from town to town
- jd250

WTF is that? You feeling ok?

Devils, Isles and Bolts all lose tonight. I think the Pens may be the biggest threat in taking that 3rd spot in the Metro away from the Flyers. Gotta take them down on Sunday. Just looked at the schedule and the Pens don't play on Saturday. Just love how Buttman gives them a cushy schedule every year. They prolly have the fewest back to backs in the league. Flyers having to play them the next afternoon after playing the Rags Saturday. F U Buttman!!
- Phillywhiteout

I'm not worried about the Penguins, they are old and have to play more games down the stretch here. The Flyers are a better team.

As are most. All these guys can do is compare players based on skill set and performance at lower levels. How their skills translate, whether they get unlucky with injuries and if they are drafted by the right team at the right time are just some factors that determine if a player succeeds or not. I think most are wrong way more than they are right, because it's a really hard thing to project.
- jd250

I don't think Button is wrong on Guathier

WTF is that? You feeling ok?
- TheFreak

What? Don't tell me your not a Swifty? Say it isn't so!

What has Drysdale done in 4 years in the league to show he is a top pairing dman? he skates pretty, but he hasn't exactly done very much..he has 4 points and is a -8 in 15 games here.

Overall this season he has 9 points in 25 games and is a -10.

How do you see this as a top pairing performance?
- TheFreak

He is 21. Lets revisit this conversation in 3 years.