Interesting hypothetical Marner trade here.


https://www.sportsnet.ca/...ple-leafs-could-consider/
- Hextall271

Drunk, stoned, and beaten over the head with a rock and Marner still wouldn't waive for any of those teams.

Bill or anyone that knows,
Over the years I’ve heard statements implying that the re-affiliation of the Hershey Bears from the flyers to the Avs in 1996 was in some way connected to the Flyers trade with Quebec for Lindros. Is there any truth to that? If so, what are the details.
Thanks

Maybe Chicago (3 cups)? Pittsburgh (3 cups)? TB (2 cups)? Colorado (1 cup, so far)? LA (2 cups)?

Toronto tried to not tank when Burke was hired as GM and it backfired. Tanking literally got them one of the best players in the game and several other elite players. Their problem is they haven’t gotten an elite defenseman. Montreal only just began their tank 2 years ago and it’s showing promise. NJ has stockpiled a ton of talent which we saw last start to come to life last year and if not for injuries they’d have been a playoff team for sure this year.

But let’s adopt the Dallas plan who’s won (checks notes) 0 cups this century. The elite talent is what brings the winning culture.

If you can’t identify the correct talent in the top 10 you’re not going to be able to identify the talent outside the top 10.
- Schmojo

It's also better to be a team in a failed rebuild than to be a team where the Flyers often find themselves in. A bubble playoff team with a lack of cap flexibility that has no future and no reasonable chance of becoming a true contender anytime soon. Some fans like to bring up Buffalo when the Flyers have been a failed team for 14 years and counting.

Maybe Chicago (3 cups)? Pittsburgh (3 cups)? TB (2 cups)? Colorado (1 cup, so far)? LA (2 cups)?

Toronto tried to not tank when Burke was hired as GM and it backfired. Tanking literally got them one of the best players in the game and several other elite players. Their problem is they haven’t gotten an elite defenseman. Montreal only just began their tank 2 years ago and it’s showing promise. NJ has stockpiled a ton of talent which we saw last start to come to life last year and if not for injuries they’d have been a playoff team for sure this year.

But let’s adopt the Dallas plan who’s won (checks notes) 0 cups this century. The elite talent is what brings the winning culture.

If you can’t identify the correct talent in the top 10 you’re not going to be able to identify the talent outside the top 10.
- Schmojo

What's the difference between Dallas and the teams that won cups...for the most part a #1 overall pick that became elite or generational (besides LA).

ALL those teams listed with cups did it also with good drafting through the most important rounds (1-3/4). Chicago...Keith, Seabrook. Pittsburgh...Letang. Tampa...Kucherov, Point. LA..Koitar, Quick.

What most Flyer fans want is dump everything and tank to get that #1 pick.
1) Getting the #1 is not guaranteed, even if you end up with the worst record ever.
2) There's no guarantee that time they do win is a super elite or generational talent.

How many #1's did it take Edmonton before they landed McDavid? Sure that makes the process much much easier and quicker, but not fool proof.

In the meantime drafting well and actually finding that gem that turns into at least a star/superstar in the money rounds helps the process even more.

The Flyers don't draft terrible all the time, they just rarely find anything special with their picks. Giroux is easily the last one, before that was probably Forsberg (traded for Lindros). Sure they got their Richards, Carters and Gagne, but they need more bang more often when drafting.

It's also better to be a team in a failed rebuild than to be a team where the Flyers often find themselves in. A bubble playoff team with a lack of cap flexibility that has no future and no reasonable chance of becoming a true contender anytime soon. Some fans like to bring up Buffalo when the Flyers have been a failed team for 14 years and counting.
- MJL

The only difference between Philly and Buffalo is the fact Buffalo looks way more promising ON PAPER. Buffalo should be much further along than they are now and have been in the spot they are for much longer.

Winning top picks and drafting well is the first part, what you do with them and how you manage the rest is what makes or breaks the GM.

What's the difference between Dallas and the teams that won cups...for the most part a #1 overall pick that became elite or generational (besides LA).

ALL those teams listed with cups did it also with good drafting through the most important rounds (1-3/4). Chicago...Keith, Seabrook. Pittsburgh...Letang. Tampa...Kucherov, Point. LA..Koitar, Quick.

What most Flyer fans want is dump everything and tank to get that #1 pick.
1) Getting the #1 is not guaranteed, even if you end up with the worst record ever.
2) There's no guarantee that time they do win is a super elite or generational talent.

How many #1's did it take Edmonton before they landed McDavid? Sure that makes the process much much easier and quicker, but not fool proof.

In the meantime drafting well and actually finding that gem that turns into at least a star/superstar in the money rounds helps the process even more.

The Flyers don't draft terrible all the time, they just rarely find anything special with their picks. Giroux is easily the last one, before that was probably Forsberg (traded for Lindros). Sure they got their Richards, Carters and Gagne, but they need more bang more often when drafting.
- Glak18

Easy example is when the Flyers finished in last place by 37 points in 2006 or 2007 I believe. They ended up getting the second pick instead of the first pick which was a huge difference that year (JVR vs Kane). There is no guarantee in anything through tanking.

Easy example is when the Flyers finished in last place by 37 points in 2006 or 2007 I believe. They ended up getting the second pick instead of the first pick which was a huge difference that year (JVR vs Kane). There is no guarantee in anything through tanking.
- Phillywhiteout

I agree, but that also doesn't mean a team has to keep trying for the playoffs because the odds are not always there.

Teams that know their limitations, design a plan and stick with it (mixed in some luck) tend to get the payoff more often than not. Teams do the same things in other sports.

The teams that tend to flip flop and take shortcuts like Philly, Toronto, NY Rangers are the ones that get some good seasons mixed with a lot of mediocre bubble positioning for long stretches pay the price for it.

What's the difference between Dallas and the teams that won cups...for the most part a #1 overall pick that became elite or generational (besides LA).

ALL those teams listed with cups did it also with good drafting through the most important rounds (1-3/4). Chicago...Keith, Seabrook. Pittsburgh...Letang. Tampa...Kucherov, Point. LA..Koitar, Quick.

What most Flyer fans want is dump everything and tank to get that #1 pick.
1) Getting the #1 is not guaranteed, even if you end up with the worst record ever.
2) There's no guarantee that time they do win is a super elite or generational talent.

How many #1's did it take Edmonton before they landed McDavid? Sure that makes the process much much easier and quicker, but not fool proof.

In the meantime drafting well and actually finding that gem that turns into at least a star/superstar in the money rounds helps the process even more.

The Flyers don't draft terrible all the time, they just rarely find anything special with their picks. Giroux is easily the last one, before that was probably Forsberg (traded for Lindros). Sure they got their Richards, Carters and Gagne, but they need more bang more often when drafting.
- Glak18

Team building can also be greatly impacted by trades. The Fletcher era was pretty bad in the trade market. Trading of assets to trade Ghost to acquire with more assets given away for Risto. Atkinson for Voracek. Trading assets for DeAngelo. The G trade turned out to be a net positive- probably the only.

The Briere era so far has been using the trade market to acquire picks (retaining salary) and removing salary for the most part. Trades of Provy and Hayes to clear space and acquire picks. Trading of Walker. Granted, Johnson trade was an addition.

I do believe Briere is in rebuild mode still and not playoff roster building mode. There is absolutely no certainty in goal. I understand the frustration because he has not torn the roster down to the studs. Nor do I believe he will do that. Tearing down to the studs will involve more then just trading Laughton and TK.

Team building can also be greatly impacted by trades. The Fletcher era was pretty bad in the trade market. Trading of assets to trade Ghost to acquire with more assets given away for Risto. Atkinson for Voracek. Trading assets for DeAngelo. The G trade turned out to be a net positive- probably the only.

The Briere era so far has been using the trade market to acquire picks (retaining salary) and removing salary for the most part. Trades of Provy and Hayes to clear space and acquire picks. Trading of Walker. Granted, Johnson trade was an addition.

I do believe Briere is in rebuild mode still and not playoff roster building mode. There is absolutely no certainty in goal. I understand the frustration because he has not torn the roster down to the studs. Nor do I believe he will do that. Tearing down to the studs will involve more then just trading Laughton and TK.
- Trox88

It seems, at least in the NHL, that big market teams have a tougher time making decisions to do full rebuilds, but teams in smaller markets don't have issues with it. Most fans don't even think twice about small market teams sucking until they win the cup.

Interesting example is Boston. They have had a long stretch of good success with some cups. Eventually there's going to come a time they are going to have to make some tough decisions. Do they part with Pasta or do they continue to buy/trade to fill around him? Same with Pittsburgh, I know they want to go as long as Crosby, but time is not their friend before they make those decisions (which seems like they started with Guentzel).

It's also better to be a team in a failed rebuild than to be a team where the Flyers often find themselves in. A bubble playoff team with a lack of cap flexibility that has no future and no reasonable chance of becoming a true contender anytime soon. Some fans like to bring up Buffalo when the Flyers have been a failed team for 14 years and counting.
- MJL

Yes, Buffalo is such a storied franchise with a great history! We should aspire to be more like them. That's why we got Risto, hoping to bring some of the Buffalo magic to Philly. I'm telling you, the Sabres fans would love you on their board with all of your almighty wisdom. You'd probably even find a few to insult on a daily basis to make you feel right at home. They have Ruff coaching his second time and he is a former Sabre, but that's cool as that's what the Flyers do. Gooooo Buffalo!!

It seems, at least in the NHL, that big market teams have a tougher time making decisions to do full rebuilds, but teams in smaller markets don't have issues with it. Most fans don't even think twice about small market teams sucking until they win the cup.

Interesting example is Boston. They have had a long stretch of good success with some cups. Eventually there's going to come a time they are going to have to make some tough decisions. Do they part with Pasta or do they continue to buy/trade to fill around him? Same with Pittsburgh, I know they want to go as long as Crosby, but time is not their friend before they make those decisions (which seems like they started with Guentzel).
- Glak18

Don Sweeney as GM pretty much has done a great job in drafting (believe Seguin was there last top 5 pick), trade market, and free agency. Not perfect, but really good.

PIT had a chance for cap flexibility, acquiring draft picks, but chose not to by re signing Letang and Malkin. Then doubling down and trading for Karlsson. They would be in the same position today without those moves.

COL won the Cup with high 1st rd picks, no doubt. However, the team building around the picks was impressive. Guys like Kadri, Nichuskin, Toews, Manson, Kuemper, Compher, Burakovsky, and Cogliano were vital in winning the Cup. Need to draft well, but more is needed.

To breakdown how Vegas is doing it, would take a lot of time 😀

Don Sweeney as GM pretty much has done a great job in drafting (believe Seguin was there last top 5 pick), trade market, and free agency. Not perfect, but really good.

PIT had a chance for cap flexibility, acquiring draft picks, but chose not to by re signing Letang and Malkin. Then doubling down and trading for Karlsson. They would be in the same position today without those moves.

COL won the Cup with high 1st rd picks, no doubt. However, the team building around the picks was impressive. Guys like Kadri, Nichuskin, Toews, Manson, Kuemper, Compher, Burakovsky, and Cogliano were vital in winning the Cup. Need to draft well, but more is needed.

To breakdown how Vegas is doing it, would take a lot of time 😀
- Trox88

Vegas is another great example...an example I DO NOT want the Flyers to model after.

Yes, they won a cup and made another appearance, but they are going to hit the wall eventually and it's going to hurt. The saving grace is it's Vegas and they are new and shiny, but when they hit the wall no one will care.

Ok now Boston and Florida is going to be fun to watch now, for the next 8 mins and the rest of the series.

Vegas is another great example...an example I DO NOT want the Flyers to model after.

Yes, they won a cup and made another appearance, but they are going to hit the wall eventually and it's going to hurt. The saving grace is it's Vegas and they are new and shiny, but when they hit the wall no one will care.
- Glak18

I read a quote about McCrimmon as GM for Vegas, which made a lot of sense. Basically, his style is that of a GM in the CHL. Using assets to acquire, established talent. Look at his trades for Stone, Eichel, Hanifin, and Hertl. Keep in mind, Vegas has to draft well to be able to add them in trades to acquire players. They did move on from Reilly Smith and are probably not going to re sign Marchessault and Martinez this summer. Next year McNabb and Theodore are UFAs. They have more roster flexibilty built in, which is kind of surprising.

It's also better to be a team in a failed rebuild than to be a team where the Flyers often find themselves in. A bubble playoff team with a lack of cap flexibility that has no future and no reasonable chance of becoming a true contender anytime soon. Some fans like to bring up Buffalo when the Flyers have been a failed team for 14 years and counting.
- MJL

Exactly, the Flyers are just as much of a failed team as Buffalo since they met in the 2011 playoffs. It just doesn’t look as that way because the Flyers have made the playoffs a few times but we’re just a lame duck team like WSH and NYI this year. That’s what I don’t get about all the anti-tank people. They’ve tried every other approach and it hasn’t worked. Why not try tanking.

What's the difference between Dallas and the teams that won cups...for the most part a #1 overall pick that became elite or generational (besides LA).

ALL those teams listed with cups did it also with good drafting through the most important rounds (1-3/4). Chicago...Keith, Seabrook. Pittsburgh...Letang. Tampa...Kucherov, Point. LA..Koitar, Quick.

What most Flyer fans want is dump everything and tank to get that #1 pick.
1) Getting the #1 is not guaranteed, even if you end up with the worst record ever.
2) There's no guarantee that time they do win is a super elite or generational talent.

How many #1's did it take Edmonton before they landed McDavid? Sure that makes the process much much easier and quicker, but not fool proof.

In the meantime drafting well and actually finding that gem that turns into at least a star/superstar in the money rounds helps the process even more.

The Flyers don't draft terrible all the time, they just rarely find anything special with their picks. Giroux is easily the last one, before that was probably Forsberg (traded for Lindros). Sure they got their Richards, Carters and Gagne, but they need more bang more often when drafting.
- Glak18

No one is saying that you draft #1 and automatically win the cup. Of course you have to draft well in other rounds but not acknowledging that Chicago got Kane at 1 and Toews at 3, or LA got Doughty at 2, or TB got Stamkos at 1, Hedman at 2, even Drouin at 3 who they turned into Sergachev is ignoring the most critical piece to those championship teams. None of those teams win the cup without those top picks. What most of us pro-tank people realize is they need to be at the top of the draft to get the 1-2 truly elite players and then ALSO draft well in later rounds. You can then add pieces later to put you over the top. All those teams mentioned above also missed on some top 10 picks but when they did nail 1-2 of them it eventually got them a cup.

It seems, at least in the NHL, that big market teams have a tougher time making decisions to do full rebuilds, but teams in smaller markets don't have issues with it. Most fans don't even think twice about small market teams sucking until they win the cup.

Interesting example is Boston. They have had a long stretch of good success with some cups. Eventually there's going to come a time they are going to have to make some tough decisions. Do they part with Pasta or do they continue to buy/trade to fill around him? Same with Pittsburgh, I know they want to go as long as Crosby, but time is not their friend before they make those decisions (which seems like they started with Guentzel).
- Glak18

I don’t know if you can make generalizations about rebuild tendencies based on market size. Minnesota and Seattle are somewhere around #15 size wise and they couldn’t be more different.



The Wild can’t rebuild because their owner and fans won’t stand for it. They also have a superstar who will be gone if they don’t contend in a year or two.

I spent a week in Seattle around the Outdoor Classic attending games(saw the Flyers). The fans overall are less knowledgeable about hockey. They are chill and more about the ambiance surrounding hockey. They polled fans about their urgency for team success and found that the fans were going to be patient.

Easy example is when the Flyers finished in last place by 37 points in 2006 or 2007 I believe. They ended up getting the second pick instead of the first pick which was a huge difference that year (JVR vs Kane). There is no guarantee in anything through tanking.
- Phillywhiteout

But there’s also no guarantees through the other approaches. It hasn’t worked for every team but it’s been the far and away best avenue to winning the cup

Exactly, the Flyers are just as much of a failed team as Buffalo since they met in the 2011 playoffs. It just doesn’t look as that way because the Flyers have made the playoffs a few times but we’re just a lame duck team like WSH and NYI this year. That’s what I don’t get about all the anti-tank people. They’ve tried every other approach and it hasn’t worked. Why not try tanking.
- Schmojo

Money and perception.

The organization probably wants the "No quit ever" perception and want to use that as PR to to sell their next year "gimmick". Sounds stupid, but I believe their top priority is 100% is what will get people in the seats before all else.

Gritty...Torts....next year?

I find it comical because the city of Philadelphia is not immune to losing. Eagles, Sixers, Phillies have all gone through absolute garbage extended periods, but the Flyers try to bounce back as soon as possible.

Would fans really care if the Flyers sucked really bad, but knew they were gathering assets to have a bright future? I think that would actually sell more tickets. Imagine the Flyers getting a McDavid type player...people would sit on top of each other to get that kind of player here.

But I really believe it's sell, sell, sell then let the universe take care of everything else.

Exactly, the Flyers are just as much of a failed team as Buffalo since they met in the 2011 playoffs. It just doesn’t look as that way because the Flyers have made the playoffs a few times but we’re just a lame duck team like WSH and NYI this year. That’s what I don’t get about all the anti-tank people. They’ve tried every other approach and it hasn’t worked. Why not try tanking.
- Schmojo

I am an anti-tank guy but totally understand your point. Regardless of any of our point of views, i'd be shocked of the Flyers franchise ever considers tanking. From Philly to Snider to all the dinosaurs who are "still in charge" (as per the haters), it just won't happen. Comcast is a business and as long as people keep showing up to games, they will accept a bubble playoff team. It cracks me up the past few seasons to see the fans cheering, jumping up/down, etc on those final games that don't mean anything. Comcast sees $$ signs so all good! Gritty rocks!

Money and perception.

The organization probably wants the "No quit ever" perception and want to use that as PR to to sell their next year "gimmick". Sounds stupid, but I believe their top priority is 100% is what will get people in the seats before all else.

Gritty...Torts....next year?

I find it comical because the city of Philadelphia is not immune to losing. Eagles, Sixers, Phillies have all gone through absolute garbage extended periods, but the Flyers try to bounce back as soon as possible.

Would fans really care if the Flyers sucked really bad, but knew they were gathering assets to have a bright future? I think that would actually sell more tickets. Imagine the Flyers getting a McDavid type player...people would sit on top of each other to get that kind of player here.

But I really believe it's sell, sell, sell then let the universe take care of everything else.
- Glak18

Amen and well said! I submitted my post and saw this. You nailed it.

Money and perception.

The organization probably wants the "No quit ever" perception and want to use that as PR to to sell their next year "gimmick". Sounds stupid, but I believe their top priority is 100% is what will get people in the seats before all else.

Gritty...Torts....next year?

I find it comical because the city of Philadelphia is not immune to losing. Eagles, Sixers, Phillies have all gone through absolute garbage extended periods, but the Flyers try to bounce back as soon as possible.

Would fans really care if the Flyers sucked really bad, but knew they were gathering assets to have a bright future? I think that would actually sell more tickets. Imagine the Flyers getting a McDavid type player...people would sit on top of each other to get that kind of player here.

But I really believe it's sell, sell, sell then let the universe take care of everything else.
- Glak18

Michkov is the highest prospect the organization has acquired since Lindros. If he played for Guelph the hype would be off the charts. They better have a plan in place to build the team around him because I believe he will be here by next summer. If selling York and even Sanheim is part of the plan, not sure I agree.

Don Sweeney as GM pretty much has done a great job in drafting (believe Seguin was there last top 5 pick), trade market, and free agency. Not perfect, but really good.

PIT had a chance for cap flexibility, acquiring draft picks, but chose not to by re signing Letang and Malkin. Then doubling down and trading for Karlsson. They would be in the same position today without those moves.

COL won the Cup with high 1st rd picks, no doubt. However, the team building around the picks was impressive. Guys like Kadri, Nichuskin, Toews, Manson, Kuemper, Compher, Burakovsky, and Cogliano were vital in winning the Cup. Need to draft well, but more is needed.

To breakdown how Vegas is doing it, would take a lot of time 😀
- Trox88

Colorado is a great example. They added all of those guys listed after Mackinnon and Makar were drafted. That’s exactly how you do it. You draft the elite players and then add through trades and good signings around them. You can’t do it the opposite way because those other players will have you in the middle of the pack preventing you from getting Mackinnon and Makar.

Colorado is a great example. They added all of those guys listed after Mackinnon and Makar were drafted. That’s exactly how you do it. You draft the elite players and then add through trades and good signings around them. You can’t do it the opposite way because those other players will have you in the middle of the pack preventing you from getting Mackinnon and Makar.
- Schmojo

That's fine, do you consider Michkov elite? Has York reached his ceiling? How many elite players does a team need to take that next step of team building?

I am an anti-tank guy but totally understand your point. Regardless of any of our point of views, i'd be shocked of the Flyers franchise ever considers tanking. From Philly to Snider to all the dinosaurs who are "still in charge" (as per the haters), it just won't happen. Comcast is a business and as long as people keep showing up to games, they will accept a bubble playoff team. It cracks me up the past few seasons to see the fans cheering, jumping up/down, etc on those final games that don't mean anything. Comcast sees $$ signs so all good! Gritty rocks!
- Don Nachbaur

Yep, completely agree with you. That’s pretty much my frustration, haha.

Part of me believes Briere knows a true rebuild is needed but all of the “collaboration” won’t allow it. The Provorov trade said rebuild, drafting Michkov and being willing to wait for him said rebuild, the Walker trade while in playoff position said rebuild. But then the Seeler signing is puzzling, the Johnson trade is puzzling. And I get it was just a 4th round pick but Brayden Point was a 4th round pick so don’t they need those since they won’t tank?