I already told you the plan Scabeh. Noah Dobson.
- Aetherial

I dont see Lou dealing with Toronto.

However, it's less about Rielly being moved and more about bringing in a guy who can do the PP or take some offensive pressure off him. You know a guy like Gustaffson.

Wouldn’t a shorter term at higher dollars = a lot more money in the end because he could just re-sign a year earlier, while he’s still a decent player?
- Arctic_AARDVARK

Possibly.

And many are assuming Marner would be fine on a losing team. Teams like Utah would ensure is point production takes a major hit. I really don't see him being fine with that.

I already told you the plan Scabeh. Noah Dobson.
- Aetherial

Sorry! I keep forgetting!

Yes I understand that and know this. You do know two things can be happening at the same time right?

Dubas and Shanny can/likely did have friction and issues. Also could be the board needed to be in the "know" on a more upto the minute thing. That's how it was laid out last year with Shanny being the go between. Which simply doesn't work when necessary.

Also once it came out it explained, to me at least, the odd trades like Foligno. I felt that was a Shanny move all the way through.
- Aaron_85

The board hired Shanny to be the top of the chain on hockey related decisions. Ed Rogers and Nikki Moffat ain't approving the Dewar trade (or anything else).

The debate last year was about how much authority Shanny might hold over his GM and therefore how much autonomy Lou/Dubas/Treeliving ever really had under Shanny. The verdict, if you believe Brian Burke was that the the Leafs are run/organized no different than anywhere else. The GM does the work and brings the bigger decisions to the President/Boss. Burke went to Peddie back in his day. Tree to Shanny. And Burke said it's generally rubber stamped unless their are specific reasons. For example the rumour was Dubas tried to move a core piece (88?) in a trade for a significant d'man (rumoured to have been Karlsson) and Shanny said "nuh uh".

The board hired Shanny to be the top of the chain on hockey related decisions. Ed Rogers and Nikki Moffat ain't approving the Dewar trade (or anything else).

The debate last year was about how much authority Shanny might hold over his GM and therefore how much autonomy Lou/Dubas/Treeliving ever really had under Shanny. The verdict, if you believe Brian Burke was that the the Leafs are run/organized no different than anywhere else. The GM does the work and brings the bigger decisions to the President/Boss. Burke went to Peddie back in his day. Tree to Shanny. And Burke said it's generally rubber stamped unless their are specific reasons. For example the rumour was Dubas tried to move a core piece (88?) in a trade for a significant d'man (rumoured to have been Karlsson) and Shanny said "nuh uh".
- The Law

yes I understand. I'm using what was said in the media last year though. That's it. If you're extrapolating something else then go for it.

No I don't think the Dewar deal is a board level thing. I think that discussion is had prior as in "this is what we are allowed to do".

That article posted by Senstroll earlier in the thread would contradict what you're saying though to a degree.

At any rate, all I care about is that Shanny, to me, has his hands more in the pot of what the GM should/does than most presidents. For proof of that he kind of pushed Keefe onto Tree last year a bit.

Keefe had 1 last coaching moment. He taught the president and gm , it looks good to take blame. The difference being keefe was genuine.

I did enjoy the question to the ceo. How to justify keeping the president after firing the coach. There was no real answer.

Watching all this looks more like a corporation staging public damage control after an enviromental disaster. It does not resemble a hockey club
- spazzbot

So it was like an Ottawa Senators press conference?

“We are a team”

“We’ve scraped the budget bin for a coach and hired Travis Green”.

Like that?

Pierre LeBrun
@PierreVLeBrun
·
5m
Hearing that the Devils have sought and received permission to speak with Sheldon Keefe

Devils eliminate the Leafs from the last wildcard spot next year, book it.

yes I understand. I'm using what was said in the media last year though. That's it. If you're extrapolating something else then go for it.

No I don't think the Dewar deal is a board level thing. I think that discussion is had prior as in "this is what we are allowed to do".

That article posted by Senstroll earlier in the thread would contradict what you're saying though to a degree.

At any rate, all I care about is that Shanny, to me, has his hands more in the pot of what the GM should/does than most presidents. For proof of that he kind of pushed Keefe onto Tree last year a bit.
- Aaron_85

I don't know. We've scapegoated a GM, a coach, a top-RW in the league, the goalie, the top-D player on our team and now the president of hockey operations.

It was so much easier when it was all Nylander's fault.

I sincerely don't buy into the "it's all Shanahan's fault" narrative. That said he has to own a large portion of the blame because he controls the strategy. When they decided to fast forward the build and sign Tavares he approved that deal, so he was as much a part of deviating from the strategy as anyone else in the organization.

We need a goalie as our President. Goalies look at the team and know the goalie and defense are important and you still need forwards to score. Forwards look at defensemen as guys who can't score well enough to be forwards, and at goalies as hockey players that can't skate. They're like the drummer of the band - "just sit back there and shut up and do your poop!"

Sorry! I keep forgetting!

- Scabeh

Welcome to the wonderful world of useless press conferences. It's why I never watch them. Useless.
- Aaron_85

I actually thought it was good. When assessing your product every year, every business needs to look at all areas to see what can be done for improvement. This is the first time in many years that the repeated message was, nothing will escape the microscope and everything is on the table. The tired old message that the core is fine and we’re running it back, was clearly gone. That said, with the cupboards being stripped down and some of the contracts leaving them handcuffed, there are challenges! But, good to know they are open for business!

I don't know. We've scapegoated a GM, a coach, a top-RW in the league, the goalie, the top-D player on our team and now the president of hockey operations.

It was so much easier when it was all Nylander's fault.

I sincerely don't buy into the "it's all Shanahan's fault" narrative. That said he has to own a large portion of the blame because he controls the strategy. When they decided to fast forward the build and sign Tavares he approved that deal, so he was as much a part of deviating from the strategy as anyone else in the organization.

We need a goalie as our President. Goalies look at the team and know the goalie and defense are important and you still need forwards to score. Forwards look at defensemen as guys who can't score well enough to be forwards, and at goalies as hockey players that can't skate. They're like the drummer of the band - "just sit back there and shut up and do your poop!"
- Monkeypunk

They tried that in 1997 to 2003 with some loser former Hab goalie named Ben Hyden or something like that.



This was his "Leaf Career":

Named Toronto Maple Leafs president on May 30, 1997, and remained in that position until June 27, 2003. ... Served as Toronto general manager from 1997-1999. ... Named vice chairman of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. on June 27, 2003, and remained in that position until May 17, 2004

Results (which lend themselves to your theory as being solid as they only got knocked out in the 1st round once in the years they made the playoffs):

I don't know. We've scapegoated a GM, a coach, a top-RW in the league, the goalie, the top-D player on our team and now the president of hockey operations.

It was so much easier when it was all Nylander's fault.

I sincerely don't buy into the "it's all Shanahan's fault" narrative. That said he has to own a large portion of the blame because he controls the strategy. When they decided to fast forward the build and sign Tavares he approved that deal, so he was as much a part of deviating from the strategy as anyone else in the organization.

We need a goalie as our President. Goalies look at the team and know the goalie and defense are important and you still need forwards to score. Forwards look at defensemen as guys who can't score well enough to be forwards, and at goalies as hockey players that can't skate. They're like the drummer of the band - "just sit back there and shut up and do your poop!"
- Monkeypunk

I have never once blamed only one person or "thing" on the leafs lack of playoff success. I believe there's more than one variable at play at all times. I simply don't like how Shanahan comes across. He's a good business man but I don't think he's a good GM.

I actually thought it was good. When assessing your product every year, every business needs to look at all areas to see what can be done for improvement. This is the first time in many years that the repeated message was, nothing will escape the microscope and everything is on the table. The tired old message that the core is fine and we’re running it back, was clearly gone. That said, with the cupboards being stripped down and some of the contracts leaving them handcuffed, there are challenges! But, good to know they are open for business!
- Bullot

Dubas said the same thing last year and everyone knew a major shake up was coming but he was fired.

Fake news. I was told this info is unavailable to anyone!
- Aaron_85

Yes all trade talk is not public knowledge.

Some leaks out, but the vast majority of it we do not know and will never know.

Pretty simple concept.

Hertl was not on the market when he was moved to vegas.
That was out of nowhere to the public.

I believe even the vegas GM said it came together quickly.

I only heard one discussion on Sportsnet a few weeks prior, but it was about San Jose and Hertl was simply mentioned in passing and they said they dont know why he would want to move.

Not saying the gms hadnt had discussions about it prior.
- Fakepartofme

Yes

Dubas said the same thing last year and everyone knew a major shake up was coming but he was fired.

- Aaron_85

Well by all accounts he wasn't lying, he wanted to make a major shake up happen but big daddy Shanny said no. lol

I don't know. We've scapegoated a GM, a coach, a top-RW in the league, the goalie, the top-D player on our team and now the president of hockey operations.

It was so much easier when it was all Nylander's fault.

I sincerely don't buy into the "it's all Shanahan's fault" narrative. That said he has to own a large portion of the blame because he controls the strategy. When they decided to fast forward the build and sign Tavares he approved that deal, so he was as much a part of deviating from the strategy as anyone else in the organization.

We need a goalie as our President. Goalies look at the team and know the goalie and defense are important and you still need forwards to score. Forwards look at defensemen as guys who can't score well enough to be forwards, and at goalies as hockey players that can't skate. They're like the drummer of the band - "just sit back there and shut up and do your poop!"
- Monkeypunk

It's easier for some to simply believe the fairy tales that the BOG and Shanny are puppeteering the GM in a way that is so very different than any other NHL organization.

The truth is our GM's Burke, Lou, Hunter, Dubas have not done good enough. They've made the personnel decisions and spent the cap space to date.

Shanny's fault is having too much patience with the "plan". Although the "plan" has taken on new meaning amongst the interweb. The Plan was initially coined and described as a slash and burn in 14' and 15' followed by a patient and proper rebuild around drafting and player development. I have no problem with the plan (nobody should) but Shanny just remained too patient. Sure, the pandemic and flat cap played a part, but still - that should have triggered a reaction/change in the plan.

Basically, I'm not sure I need to care about shanahan. There's no need to be invested in that. Treeliving's decision-making will define this teams success for the next handful of years. He's the guy I'm concerned about.

His first real summer coming up. Make it work Brad.

Well by all accounts he wasn't lying, he wanted to make a major shake up happen but big daddy Shanny said no. lol
- Cush29

If it was Nylander for Karlsson ....thank God he said no.

Dubas said the same thing last year and everyone knew a major shake up was coming but he was fired.

- Aaron_85

Yep. This year everyone seems to be on the same page. Even Shanahan said essentially that there is a time for patience and that time is over.

I don't know. We've scapegoated a GM, a coach, a top-RW in the league, the goalie, the top-D player on our team and now the president of hockey operations.

It was so much easier when it was all Nylander's fault.

I sincerely don't buy into the "it's all Shanahan's fault" narrative. That said he has to own a large portion of the blame because he controls the strategy. When they decided to fast forward the build and sign Tavares he approved that deal, so he was as much a part of deviating from the strategy as anyone else in the organization.

We need a goalie as our President. Goalies look at the team and know the goalie and defense are important and you still need forwards to score. Forwards look at defensemen as guys who can't score well enough to be forwards, and at goalies as hockey players that can't skate. They're like the drummer of the band - "just sit back there and shut up and do your poop!"
- Monkeypunk

Felix Potvin is 52 and coaching pee wee hockey.

Curtis Joseph is 57 and married to a Playboy smokeshow.

Yep. This year everyone seems to be on the same page. Even Shanahan said essentially that there is a time for patience and that time is over.
- Bullot

Marner and the band are sticking together, book it.

Shanahan was barely spoken of for 5 years but as soon as fraud Dubas the hero was fired Shanny became the villain.

(frank), my LG fridge I bought in 2019 is now dead cause of an internal leak that cannot be repaired

If it was Nylander for Karlsson ....thank God he said no.
- The Law

Oh good lord agreed!

It probably was that - If moving a core piece was what Dubas wanted to do (he had to think he needed to after repeatedly failing AND showing he was coming around to being willing to change the type of player he was after in the last year or 2) Willy's contract was the next one up & I think Dubas was still a bit ticked off with Willy after the last contract negotiations.