If they are to take a step back then they should not be buying out anyone. As long as torts is the coach he will prioritize vets over kids and will try to get every point he can.

Dollars to donuts that if the team is competing early in the year you will be the first to scream torts for the jack adams award
- corduroy

He’ll prioritize vets over kids…(proceeds to scratch Couturier). I don’t love everything Torts does but the idea that he prioritizes vets over kids is not factual. Young players need to play but they also need accountability and to be coached. We don’t know how many times a player has been told to correct something and doesn’t, therefore leading to a benching. I learned it as a young kid, coaches who just screamed and yelled but never held players accountable never got through to their players leading to the same mistakes again and again. The coaches who took away ice time got through right away, and repeat mistakes were eliminated.

He’ll prioritize vets over kids…(proceeds to scratch Couturier). I don’t love everything Torts does but the idea that he prioritizes vets over kids is not factual. Young players need to play but they also need accountability and to be coached. We don’t know how many times a player has been told to correct something and doesn’t, therefore leading to a benching. I learned it as a young kid, coaches who just screamed and yelled but never held players accountable never got through to their players leading to the same mistakes again and again. The coaches who took away ice time got through right away, and repeat mistakes were eliminated.
- Schmojo

That would hold merit if he didn’t keep playing slugs even when the stink up the rink.

If you believe what’s come out since, it was Hextall who made the Patrick pick against the scouting staffs wishes. It does make sense because Hexy for the most part drafted safer 2-way player types than ever really risking a pick.

I honestly feel like Hexy’s tenure is when this organization really changed. Snider was supposedly on board for a rebuild but Hexy never did a true rebuild, instead opting for a middle ground and they’ve been stuck there ever since. I’m not sure Snider would have ever been patient enough for a true rebuild but we’ll never know. It does feel like there’s still this chase to live up to Snider but they’ll never be able to do that. You can still honor Snider and Flyers traditions while recognizing that in the cap era you have to build your team differently than before.
- Schmojo

What has come out since is that there was no consensus pick from the scouts. Hextall as the GM, makes the final call. Based on the information available at the time without hindsight, I have no issue with Hextall's decision making with the Patrick pick. I also believe that Hextall's approach was guided by the fact that he knew that the organization would never stand for a complete tear down and complete rebuild.

He’ll prioritize vets over kids…(proceeds to scratch Couturier). I don’t love everything Torts does but the idea that he prioritizes vets over kids is not factual. Young players need to play but they also need accountability and to be coached. We don’t know how many times a player has been told to correct something and doesn’t, therefore leading to a benching. I learned it as a young kid, coaches who just screamed and yelled but never held players accountable never got through to their players leading to the same mistakes again and again. The coaches who took away ice time got through right away, and repeat mistakes were eliminated.
- Schmojo

Of course it is factual. Does it have to be 100% to be factual? With young players, it's not tell them to correct something and if they don't. Bench them. That's not coaching. That's a sign of a bad coach. Scratching should be due to a lack of work ethic or lackadaisical play. If a team is truly rebuilding, you coach them through their issues and live with the growing pains. You get better by playing. The last game tells you all you need to know. Bench Frost had Brink and overplay the grinders. Tortorella's methods are archaic old school BS. It's not how top coaches in the modern day NHL handle developing young players. Tortorella is horrendous with player development as a whole in my opinion.

That would hold merit if he didn’t keep playing slugs even when the stink up the rink.
- bird_dog_pa

Exactly

What has come out since is that there was no consensus pick from the scouts. Hextall as the GM, makes the final call. Based on the information available at the time without hindsight, I have no issue with Hextall's decision making with the Patrick pick. I also believe that Hextall's approach was guided by the fact that he knew that the organization would never stand for a complete tear down and complete rebuild.
- MJL

like clockwork you come to defend your dad. what a shock. surprised it took you this long

do you have proof to provide? any links? any facts to back that up?

"Relevant" or not those teams were equally as hopeless at the end of the day.

Ass backwards philosophy prioritizing big centers over goaltending and defensemen. They never had a chance against teams like Jersey, Detroit and Colorado. '97 showed as much.
- Tomahawk

That’s just factually incorrect. Clarke tried to upgrade all over the lineup throughout his tenure. He wasn’t always successful but to say he didn’t prioritize those positions is wrong. Three of his first 4 moves were addressing those issues. His first trade was acquiring Kevin Haller, 3rd move trading back for Hextall, and 4th move trading leading scorer Recchi to get Desjardins. In 97 he got Paul Coffey who had 26pts in 37 games for them. In subsequent years, he acquired Vanbiesbrouk, Cechmanek, Dan McGillis, Kim Johnsson, etc. Clarke almost had a deal for Ray Bourque. Bourque himself said he he was told it was a done deal, he was going to Philly.

As for Homer, he acquired Jason Smith, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, and Pronger. Followed by attempts at Weber and Suter. He acquired Biron, Emery, Bob, Bryz, and Mason.

Not everything was successful but your characterization is false.

It depends how much of a step back they will take. I don't want the Flyers to step back to be a laughing stock of the league as they were in 2021 or 2022. I would like them to remain competitive and play meaningful regular season games, and continue to see development from players like Foerster and Tippet. I'm just saying the Flyers at this stage of the rebuild do not have to make the playoffs next season to have a successful step forward, and should not prioritize it over getting younger and free up cap space. I'm not saying they should buy out Atkinson, all I am saying is right now they will have no choice.

Again a rebuild is not the same thing as tear down to the studs and tank. I think the Flyers are trying to rebuild.
- jd250

Those are half measures and that approach has been unsuccessful for a decade.

I prefer a true rebuild which would mean trading TK, Laughton, Sanheim, et al. And building through top picks. BUT, if they’re dead set against that, then they need to go all in like Vegas, basically what Homer did during his tenure. Anything in between is just apathy to me.

Saw and article talking about Buffalo and Montreal maybe would look to move picks to get NHL help.

Montreal I know wants to get out of the Anderson deal. Would you take that one to get the 5 OA.

To MON: Farabee, FLA 2024 1st
To Philly: 2024 1st(5OA), Anderson, maybe something else?

Money would work since bother are about the same. Anderson has 3 more years but I would rather him in the lineup over Deslaurier who I think should be sent to Lehigh.

This might not work but the jist is they need to be creative.

At 5 and 12 you could get two top end building blocks.
- J35Bacher

I would t be able to accept that deal fast enough. No way MTL makes that deal

Drafting is not why their PP is much worse than teams that are deliberately tanking. Torts and Rocky have no clue how coach a powerplay.
- Feanor

I’m not defending their coaching of the PP but the PP has been dreadful since before they took over. They haven’t fixed it but that tells you it has a lot to do with the players.

I was actually thinking i wonder if he gets to the Florida pick. I saw somewhere some teams have him off their boards in 1st round. Could be just smoke screen stuff. I would take a chance on him after the 12 pick.
- J35Bacher

I could see him falling well past 15 but doubt he’ll fall out of the 1st. Look at when MTL took Mailloux.

My assumption has been that they weren’t getting good offers for him and since he’s not a UFA they decided to wait and see if there were better offers in the off-season.
- Schmojo

What is a good offer?

Supposedly there was a first offered for him - they said no - it tells you all you need to know about how the org is operating

no good offers is like pay their fair share -- what is a good offer? what is their fair share?

these are buzzwords used to garner support for your side that offer no substantial value or meaning

I’m not defending their coaching of the PP but the PP has been dreadful since before they took over. They haven’t fixed it but that tells you it has a lot to do with the players.
- Schmojo

The last two seasons, what has been the Flyers PP strategy.

He’ll prioritize vets over kids…(proceeds to scratch Couturier). I don’t love everything Torts does but the idea that he prioritizes vets over kids is not factual. Young players need to play but they also need accountability and to be coached. We don’t know how many times a player has been told to correct something and doesn’t, therefore leading to a benching. I learned it as a young kid, coaches who just screamed and yelled but never held players accountable never got through to their players leading to the same mistakes again and again. The coaches who took away ice time got through right away, and repeat mistakes were eliminated.
- Schmojo

since you did not decide to read my rebuttal:

nd played 75% of the games - he played more games that bb
es played over half when factoring in the week or two he missed with injuries
ca played 88% of the games
sc was scratched for 2 games
ra dressed for 14% of games
ea dressed for 11%
ol dressed for 21%
mf was scratched for 13% of the season

facts are a pesky thing

please tell me how they torts did not rely on veterans?

Montreal is up against the cap and they should be desperate to shed cap. Anderson’s 5.5 is an albatross. Laughton and Florida’s pick in exchange for Anderson and the 5th OA might even be a possibility. With Ellis and Johansen on LTIR as possibilities, going over the cap shouldn’t be a problem for the Flyers and their cap space, short of resigning a couple RFAs is immaterial for another couple years. Couple this with finding some sucker to take RR for perhaps an old used pick bag and now we’re talking. Utah might want to make a splash and add some veterans in exchange for some draft capital or prospects so GMDB should be on the phone dangling TK, Couts and even Sanheim (who wouldn’t waive their NTC to live in Salt Lake City?!). But all of these fantasy moves might be possibly in NHL’24 but the Flyers are not aggressive enough to think big, trade big, and make a series of moves to legitimately do a rebuild. So, in conclusion, what’s most likely is:
Flyers draft 12 & 28-32nd;
Resign TK
Keep Laughton because he’s good in the room
Spend what cap they have on some overpriced UFA for 6-7 years
Be a bubble team for years to come and either get bounced round 1 or pick 12 every year.
- mikeyo27

Based on the Provorov trade I feel like Briere is creative enough to make the kind of moves you suggest. It’s just a matter of whether they want to make those moves. I agree that they’re unlikely to make any major moves, keep the picks they have and resign TK. My only disagreement is I don’t think they’re going to sign any big UFA this summer. Maybe next summer.

To be fair…. While I agree I’m definitely not seeing a rebuild to this point they still can go down that path. What they do with tk imo is the biggest sign of the direction.
- Stayin alive

100% this. TK is resigned to a big deal and it’s clear the whole “rebuild” was just PR to get the fans to chill out for a bit. If he’s traded, then maybe the winds will have finally changed.

The last two seasons, what has been the Flyers PP strategy.
- MJL

I said I'm not defending the current staff. I think Rocky should have been replaced. All I’m pointing out is the PP has been bad since before they arrived. Bill even outlined that in an article a while ago.

The owner deserves considerable credit for laying the foundation and for the early success. And he is rightly revered for that. But he also derserves significant blame for laying the foundations of this malaise and does not get enough criticism for that:

1. A constant short term instant gratification mindset, esp. after 1980s. Not a single contending club level 1D or 1C developed in house. A seqeuence of just buying stars and throwing them at team without any idea of how they would fit. Throwing away young talent if they don't develop quick enough.
2. A development of a mindset among fans that is excessively devoted to aura (Broad Street Bullies. Kate Smith. Red ARmy shenananigans) and passion and the notion that hockey is mostly brawn with optional brains and that teams that play hard and play the right way are the ones that end up winning. This aura creates the foundation for why a guy like Torts is brought here and why he is popular in spite of evidence that should limit his popularity.
3. The failure to foresee the effects of the salary cap and the consequences of the Bettman regime (expansion, tv deals making hockey more 'scenic' for casual tv by eliminating clutch and grab etc) on the game and what it would mean for the Flyers way.
4. The sale of the franchise to Comcast, which he must have known or should have known will largely treat the team as a programming segment.

I see Snider as a far more savvy businessman than people realize. Yet the fan base seems to think he was above commerce and was all passion.
- PT21

Exactly

Agree on the business acumen of Snider. Built a franchise from scratch into something pretty special….of course mistakes were made. As far as the salary cap era and the Flyers inability to sustain success I agree…mistakes are harder to fix when you can’t spend your way out of them.
Back then you could have a more “for today” approach. Today we see how several bad contracts are a heck of a lot harder to get out from under.
But one reason I always loved the Flyers is they always tried to remain relevant….yes there was mistakes…but I’d rather that approach to this half azzed approach that no one truly seems to know what direction the team is actually going.
- landros 2

That’s how I feel too. Pick a direction and be consistent in that. Either truly rebuild or go nuts like Vegas. You gotta go all in on a direction

I said I'm not defending the current staff. I think Rocky should have been replaced. All I’m pointing out is the PP has been bad since before they arrived. Bill even outlined that in an article a while ago.
- Schmojo

It was a bit better before they arrived. There is no indication that the coaching staff, particularly Thompson can be effective in coaching the PP.

Are these the only two choices? Why not have a systematic long term plan?

I suspect owners feel fans will not tune-in in enough numbers for a bloodless, dispassionate long term rebuild. And your "do what it takes to stay relevant" is not an option anymore because of cap.

This leaves what we have: muddling along in small circles. First pretending to rebuild (Hexatll). Then, when reuild predictably fails, pretending to be ready to contend (CF). Then, when that predictably fails, pretending to rebuild again (DB - Hextall redux).

TK is the Voracek of this era I guess.
- PT21

They basically are the 2 options. Chicago tanked, it helped build a team that won 3 cups and now they’re tanking again to hopefully repeat that success. It might not look like it but it’s a clear plan, they’ve acquire as many picks as possible to increase their chances of finding great players. Colorado tanked twice basically. The first building around Duchene wasn’t successful so they kept at it and got Mackinnon, Ratananen, and Makar, won a cup. Of course it requires a little lottery luck but outside of the unique circumstances of Vegas’ expansion, it’s really the only way it’s worked.

That’s just factually incorrect. Clarke tried to upgrade all over the lineup throughout his tenure. He wasn’t always successful but to say he didn’t prioritize those positions is wrong. Three of his first 4 moves were addressing those issues. His first trade was acquiring Kevin Haller, 3rd move trading back for Hextall, and 4th move trading leading scorer Recchi to get Desjardins. In 97 he got Paul Coffey who had 26pts in 37 games for them. In subsequent years, he acquired Vanbiesbrouk, Cechmanek, Dan McGillis, Kim Johnsson, etc. Clarke almost had a deal for Ray Bourque. Bourque himself said he he was told it was a done deal, he was going to Philly.

As for Homer, he acquired Jason Smith, Timonen, Coburn, Carle, and Pronger. Followed by attempts at Weber and Suter. He acquired Biron, Emery, Bob, Bryz, and Mason.

Not everything was successful but your characterization is false.
- Schmojo

not signing Cujo is Clarkes biggest sin from that era

What is a good offer?

Supposedly there was a first offered for him - they said no - it tells you all you need to know about how the org is operating

no good offers is like pay their fair share -- what is a good offer? what is their fair share?

these are buzzwords used to garner support for your side that offer no substantial value or meaning
- corduroy

I don’t believe they’ve ever been offered a 1st for him. I think the 1st rumored in that bigger STL deal was more for the fact STL was getting Sanheim and Laughton, who knows what else.

I don’t believe they’ve ever been offered a 1st for him. I think the 1st rumored in that bigger STL deal was more for the fact STL was getting Sanheim and Laughton, who knows what else.
- Schmojo

I agree. I have doubts that they were ever offered a 1st just for Laughton. I have doubts that he can get a first now.

Of course it is factual. Does it have to be 100% to be factual? With young players, it's not tell them to correct something and if they don't. Bench them. That's not coaching. That's a sign of a bad coach. Scratching should be due to a lack of work ethic or lackadaisical play. If a team is truly rebuilding, you coach them through their issues and live with the growing pains. You get better by playing. The last game tells you all you need to know. Bench Frost had Brink and overplay the grinders. Tortorella's methods are archaic old school BS. It's not how top coaches in the modern day NHL handle developing young players. Tortorella is horrendous with player development as a whole in my opinion.
- MJL

It’s not about benching them for one mistake. I said repeated mistakes. Some players you tell them once and it’s corrected from there on out. Other players need the message enforced another way. Ice time is the most effective way to get through to players. That doesn’t mean you’re not working with them on how to improve. If you ask your players to do something and there’s no accountability for players who don’t then you’ll lose the whole team.

I don’t agree with everything Torts does but he gets unnecessary hate on here at times. I’ll also add that I don’t think he’s the right coach for the Flyers at this time.