But you 100% know there will be Dubas die hards that'll argue till they're blue in the face that it was Dubas' pick. Leaf fans can never agree on anything.
- Whipper

im going to assign the credit

Dubas 25%
Scouting 50%
Tree 25%

there..its settled..we never have to debate it again

but if he turns out to be a bust, thats a Dubas pick...

Let's be honest, it's going to take a little time to rebuild this team to take it in a new direction. That being said, I'm surprised with what Tree has been able to do in a limited amount of time. The Leafs are a much tougher team to play against than they were last year. Next year is likely going to be limited changes, but 2025 is when big things happen.
- Whipper

I'm an optimist so I'm going to argue that this can be done quickly. They have great assets they just need to reconfigure them to strengthen what's important come playoff time.

If the Core-5 say no to moving then they still have ~18M to spend on a 2 or 3 important pieces plus some minimum wage backfilling. It won't shake things up but if the signings are smart then it points them further in the right direction. Next summer they'd have JT's money plus another cap increase to play with ...and that'd be tonnes to make some big changes.

If MM or JT said yes to moving on then it's big changes this summer.

I'm betting the blueline gets atleast one big add this summer ...maybe two.

We'll know a lot more in a month.

I think the real argument isn't what they got ($$/NMC) ...it's that they were paid/kept and built around as opposed to building this thing differently (ie. spending on a goalie and defencemen).
- The Law

I think it's a little unfair to criticize the Leafs for building around Nylander, Marner and Matthews - they drafted top-level talent, and they needed to keep them in the fold (can you imagine what people here would have written if they had gone to another team?).

Looking back, we can probably(!) all agree signing Tavares was a mistake.

If I had to level fair criticism at the Leafs, it would be that they haven't put in enough effort to draft defencemen.

None in 2013.

1 3rd rounder in 2014

Dermott in the 2nd round in 2015 (and garbage in the 3rd, 4th and 6th)

3rd, 4th and 6th in 2016

Liljegren, a 2nd and a 5th in 2017

Sandin, Durzi (2nd round), 4th and 5th in 2018

2nd, 5th and 7th in 2019

3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th in 2020

Nothing in 2021

Nothing in 2022

6th round in 2023

I think it's a little unfair to criticize the Leafs for building around Nylander, Marner and Matthews - they drafted top-level talent, and they needed to keep them in the fold (can you imagine what people here would have written if they had gone to another team?).

Looking back, we can probably(!) all agree signing Tavares was a mistake.

If I had to level fair criticism at the Leafs, it would be that they haven't put in enough effort to draft defencemen.

None in 2013.

1 3rd rounder in 2014

Dermott in the 2nd round in 2015 (and garbage in the 3rd, 4th and 6th)

3rd, 4th and 6th in 2016

Liljegren, a 2nd and a 5th in 2017

Sandin, Durzi (2nd round), 4th and 5th in 2018

2nd, 5th and 7th in 2019

3rd, 4th, 6th and 7th in 2020

Nothing in 2021

Nothing in 2022

6th round in 2023
- Atomic Wedgie

I dont agree.

I will agree if I had the knowledge before signing Tavares that the Cap would be flat for years and AM/MM would not concede a penny on their negotiations, then its a mistake

I'm an optimist so I'm going to argue that this can be done quickly. They have great assets they just need to reconfigure them to strengthen what's important come playoff time.

If the Core-5 say no to moving then they still have ~18M to spend on a 2 or 3 important pieces plus some minimum wage backfilling. It won't shake things up but if the signings are smart then it points them further in the right direction. Next summer they'd have JT's money plus another cap increase to play with ...and that'd be tonnes to make some big changes.

If MM or JT said yes to moving on then it's big changes this summer.

I'm betting the blueline gets atleast one big add this summer ...maybe two.

We'll know a lot more in a month.
- The Law

I agree. If those two are back he can make one biggish move. If there’s an expensive D piece that is available, he can skimp a bit up front and play Knies and McMann in the top six.

He signed that contract at age 22, coming off an entry-level contract.

So in fact he has more trade protection than Nylander's second contract.

Thank you for proving my point.
- Atomic Wedgie

Listen, if your point is that Shanahan has done a fabulous job overseeing these contracts, which you spoke about recently, I simply don't agree.

I'm an optimist so I'm going to argue that this can be done quickly. They have great assets they just need to reconfigure them to strengthen what's important come playoff time.

If the Core-5 say no to moving then they still have ~18M to spend on a 2 or 3 important pieces plus some minimum wage backfilling. It won't shake things up but if the signings are smart then it points them further in the right direction. Next summer they'd have JT's money plus another cap increase to play with ...and that'd be tonnes to make some big changes.

If MM or JT said yes to moving on then it's big changes this summer.

I'm betting the blueline gets atleast one big add this summer ...maybe two.

We'll know a lot more in a month.
- The Law

I lean towards optimism as well, I'm mostly trying to talk some posters off the ledge slowly. JT will not waive, and MM 80% won't, they're both back next year. But they do have some flexibility. I'll let Brad cook before I judge, he's done well given his situation.

I think the real argument isn't what they got ($$/NMC) ...it's that they were paid/kept and built around as opposed to building this thing differently (ie. spending on a goalie and defencemen).
- The Law

Absolutely. My point on the contracts is that they made it very difficult to move off a failed plan.

Let's be honest, it's going to take a little time to rebuild this team to take it in a new direction. That being said, I'm surprised with what Tree has been able to do in a limited amount of time. The Leafs are a much tougher team to play against than they were last year. Next year is likely going to be limited changes, but 2025 is when big things happen.
- Whipper

What did you think Vegas fans thought the year before they won the cup? They missed the playoffs.

Avs couldn't get out of the 2nd round before they won the cup.

Leafs have a lot of talent and a lot of value in their team, if they do things right here I think they have the best shot they have had in the Matthews era the next few years.

Well nothing will triumph the North division...their chances to win that were high and probably never will reach that height again due to the comp.

Absolutely. My point on the contracts is that they made it very difficult to move off a failed plan.
- fifty__missions

The good news is we have one more year of being completely handcuffed, unless Tree gives Marner 13x8 and full NMC, then we just run it back perpetually.

I lean towards optimism as well, I'm mostly trying to talk some posters off the ledge slowly. JT will not waive, and MM 80% won't, they're both back next year. But they do have some flexibility. I'll let Brad cook before I judge, he's done well given his situation.
- Whipper

tell me why

if the leafs tell him they are not re signing him why are his odds so low?

What did you think Vegas fans thought the year before they won the cup? They missed the playoffs.

Avs couldn't get out of the 2nd round before they won the cup.

Leafs have a lot of talent and a lot of value in their team, if they do things right here I think they have the best shot they have had in the Matthews era the next few years.

Well nothing will triumph the North division...their chances to win that were high and probably never will reach that height again due to the comp.
- Santo_44

Fully agree, I'm optimistic about the future. I just really hope Marner either accepts a trade (which he almost certainly won't) and we get some decent assets back, or he signs a team friendly deal of $10M tops (which he also most certainly won't). Dammit, we're screwed

The good news is we have one more year of being completely handcuffed, unless Tree gives Marner 13x8 and full NMC, then we just run it back perpetually.
- Whipper

I just dont think they have much choice.. if Mitchy wants to stay..he forces the hand. give me my giant (not earned) pay raise or let me walk for nothing

The good news is we have one more year of being completely handcuffed, unless Tree gives Marner 13x8 and full NMC, then we just run it back perpetually.
- Whipper

Dallas has Benn and Seguin at a combined 20M.

The Leafs should not be handcuffed because JT is paid 3-4M more than he should.

They have no dead money. Most teams have dead money.

nice
Outer Range full season 2 and Bridgerton part of season 3 have dropped

tell me why

if the leafs tell him they are not re signing him why are his odds so low?
- Santo_44

I just don't see it happening. He's a Toronto boy who likely doesn't ever want to leave, and he's a heck of a talent so the team will be afraid to lose him for "nothing" and will almost certainly give him whatever he wants.

Yes, fans are turning on him. Yes, the team can have that discussion with him and try to make his life miserable. But his dad is an absolute wiener and will play hardball, and will likely win.

Most of this is just me preparing myself for another anchor contract with a player that I find frustrating to cheer for.

Looking back, we can probably(!) all agree signing Tavares was a mistake.

I dont agree.

I will agree if I had the knowledge before signing Tavares that the Cap would be flat for years and AM/MM would not concede a penny on their negotiations, then its a mistake
- senstroll

I agree with senstroll on this one - JT's contract would not have been such an anchor had the cap continued to rise year over year as it always had.

In addition (and just to be cheeky so take it tongue in cheek all you JT h8rs) had the Leafs not got JT they would still be looking for their first playoff series win in forever since he scored the goal that won them the Tampa series.

tell me why

if the leafs tell him they are not re signing him why are his odds so low?
- Santo_44

My guess is Mitchy and his advisors are drooling at the idea of hitting the open market on July 1st.

He thinks there will be a bidding war, and I'm not sure he's wrong.

I just dont think they have much choice.. if Mitchy wants to stay..he forces the hand. give me my giant (not earned) pay raise or let me walk for nothing
- senstroll

Yeah, that's what I just posted, don't remind me again

I just don't see it happening. He's a Toronto boy who likely doesn't ever want to leave, and he's a heck of a talent so the team will be afraid to lose him for "nothing" and will almost certainly give him whatever he wants.

Yes, fans are turning on him. Yes, the team can have that discussion with him and try to make his life miserable. But his dad is an absolute wiener and will play hardball, and will likely win.

Most of this is just me preparing myself for another anchor contract with a player that I find frustrating to cheer for.
- Whipper

Well if they tell him he is leaving, the dream is dead. Hanging on for 1 more year isn't exactly "living the Toronto boy dream"

In years past I would agree. They never wanted to trade him.

It is time, I find it hard to believe it won't get done.

Absolutely. My point on the contracts is that they made it very difficult to move off a failed plan.
- fifty__missions

just need to wait one more year (of futility) before we can see some real change unless hell breaks loose come July 1st and players people want gone are re-signed.

My guess is Mitchy and his advisors are drooling at the idea of hitting the open market on July 1st.

He thinks there will be a bidding war, and I'm not sure he's wrong.
- Atomic Wedgie

I agree. Unless there’s a team that’s ready to pay him big $ and that he’s comfortable committing to for 8 years, he’s better off staying and hitting the market

I lean towards optimism as well, I'm mostly trying to talk some posters off the ledge slowly. JT will not waive, and MM 80% won't, they're both back next year. But they do have some flexibility. I'll let Brad cook before I judge, he's done well given his situation.
- Whipper

Sign two more meh goalies for a million each
That will create about 2.4m in cap space
Trade one of kampf or Jarnkrok- that would save about 2.1 - 2.4m. Bring up steeves or someone to fill in or a 1m player via ufa.
If the cap hits 90m, that leaves the leafs with 18.4m to work with to fill 3 forward and 4 D spots.

Ugh

Fully agree, I'm optimistic about the future. I just really hope Marner either accepts a trade (which he almost certainly won't) and we get some decent assets back, or he signs a team friendly deal of $10M tops (which he also most certainly won't). Dammit, we're screwed
- Whipper

I can't see him signing a deal for anything less than $11.5M - which Nylander got.

IMHO, that's the bare minimum. That's where negotiations start.

And then his camp starts talking about % of cap instead of dollars, so they want a bump up.

My guess is Mitchy and his advisors are drooling at the idea of hitting the open market on July 1st.

He thinks there will be a bidding war, and I'm not sure he's wrong.
- Atomic Wedgie

He doesn't get his 7th year.

I also think there are some mid tier financial teams that will be more open to giving him the dough if they are only paying him 775K this season.

Also in years past its been Willy who is taken off the PP when things aren't going well or needs a change..that is going to be Mitch now, especially if the leafs plan to move on from him.