Is he wrong? They didn’t bungle the Gauthier situation?
- landros 2

The only thing they coulda done was bring him up early. Briere didn’t think he was a ‘straight to the NHL’ guy. And he was probably right. Nobody at the time of his draft thought he was ready.

Gauthier was all aboard the Flyers train until he found out he had to wait a year and develop. Then he cut off communication and refused any resolution.

That’s on the kid. We’re the ones who lose, but that was on him.

I hope he doesnt get bought out, and the flyers are on the hook for some of that
- bradster

I don't think that applies to buying out the player. Flyers would have cap recapture if he retired early, but not being bought out by a team that he was traded to.

The only real disagreement here is the Morin pick. Was it a swing for the fence, yeah. But, prior to the knee issues, he was a monster sized D, with a cannon shot, skated decently for a big man, and no one wanted to get hit by him. I wish it would have worked out with him. Alas, the Flyers can’t have nice things. When they do get a high pick, injuries, etc. derail anything positive. Is there any voodoo doctor who can eliminate the curse on this franchise?!?!
- Hokeeguy9

Morin never displayed the necessary puck skill nor hockey IQ to be anything more than a glorified toolbox. Not pre-draft, not post-draft. Just a desperate, ill-advised pick.

I’m not within the camp that believes Edmonton or Florida have ever truly “tanked”. Many come on here daily and tell the story about how terribly ran the Flyers are and what a laughing stock they’ve been the past decade. I think Florida and Edmonton have been worst for longer. Something had to give for both franchises.
- roenick97

I just feel it is downright silly to use Vegas as an example of why you don't need to tank.

https://www.nytimes.com/a...yers-trades-of-the-2010s/
- Flyers_01

Only the Flyers could draft Sam Morin, trade JVR for Luke Schenn and offer sheet Weber all in a series of desperate moves to replace Pronger... with Andrew (frank)ing MacDonald being the culmination of those efforts.

Stop it with "the bungling of Gauthier" already. Its well documented by now, the kid has serious character issues. He is entitled and arrogant. The Flyers did nothing wrong in this situation.
- jd250

Not true...that is the opinion of bitter Flyer Fans mostly. Briere dropped the ball on Gauthier...period.

Denying this does not make your point of view right in my books.

Morin never displayed the necessary puck skill nor hockey IQ to be anything more than a glorified toolbox. Not pre-draft, not post-draft. Just a desperate, ill-advised pick.
- Tomahawk

In junior, he absolutely displayed the traits the previous poster mentioned. I watched him live at the 2014 (or 15) Mem cup for a few of the games in Quebec City. He was a monster who had solid potential. It's not like he was projected to be a 7th rounder.

how can you rebuild if it was never built?
- hello it's me 2050

At a point in time in the history of the franchise their was something of substance.

Only the Flyers could draft Sam Morin, trade JVR for Luke Schenn and offer sheet Weber all in a series of desperate moves to replace Pronger... with Andrew (frank)ing MacDonald being the culmination of those efforts.



- Tomahawk

Also remember Pavel Kubina and Kurtis Foster?

I just feel it is downright silly to use Vegas as an example of why you don't need to tank.
- MBFlyerfan

Boston hasn't tanked in quite a while and they routinely ice a contenting team although they've had a problem finishing the deal of late.

I wanted to add to the posts of Dave21Brown by focusing on management rather than players (the latter which he has already covered earlier today). In the post-salary cap era, how much of the team success is due to a commitment on the part of management to build from the ground up?

The latter is kinda hazy, so I used the following subjective definition: A team has tanked if it has TWO top 5 picks in a 5 year span, without either of the picks being due to lottery luck (Nopa/LAF).

If a team has picked twice in that low end, then it is very likely because the team is ok being bottom dwellers for some time. One can have an unexpectedly bad season (like we did in 06-07), but having two by accident is unlikely, especially as a team that doesn't want to be bottom dwellers will likely correct for the first bad season by making key changes (as we did for the 07-08 season).

This means such a team has a long view. They are likely not signing/have not signed expensive good/great players who would move the team out of the bottom 5 range and yet would be in the wrong age group when youngsters are ready to contend.


(Chart follows in next post to avoid making this too long)

Morin never displayed the necessary puck skill nor hockey IQ to be anything more than a glorified toolbox. Not pre-draft, not post-draft. Just a desperate, ill-advised pick.
- Tomahawk

But, but he was big!

I happen to agree with you, and I’d have been fine with him picked elsewhere in the draft, but he was a reach. Morrissey and Theodore were still there. Hell, even Pulock and Zadorov would’ve been a huge upgrade. And we missed out on so many great Pulock jokes!

I can admit the guy I wanted was Nichushkin, but he didn’t pan out, either. Especially in Dallas. He went one pick before.

Injuries really stifled the poor kid’s career, though. Can’t argue that. Morin had no luck.

Also remember Pavel Kubina and Kurtis Foster?
- MBFlyerfan

I try not to

The only thing they coulda done was bring him up early. Briere didn’t think he was a ‘straight to the NHL’ guy. And he was probably right. Nobody at the time of his draft thought he was ready.

Gauthier was all aboard the Flyers train until he found out he had to wait a year and develop. Then he cut off communication and refused any resolution.

That’s on the kid. We’re the ones who lose, but that was on him.
- Hesh_

It'd be great to know his side of the story but likely we won't. Really wish we could have kept him as Drysdale worries me.

...


(Chart follows in next post to avoid making this too long)
- PT21

1. I started looking at whether a team tanked from 6 years before (1998-99), which would give enough time for players from such drafts to play a key role in their potential team success. I ended the tanking period in 2017-18 for the same reason, because teams that were tanking beyond that (NJ, Ottawa, Montreal) have not yet had time to see if that tanking bears fruit.

2. I looked at cups won by all teams post-salary cap (2005-6 to 2023-24).
if a team tanked by my definition and won a cup but none of those high picks played a role, I indicate so. If a team however received key contributions from at least 1 of the top 5 picks, I attribute that cup to tanking.

Note: Boston is included here in tanking because they picked Kessel and Seguin in top 5. Yes, Kessel was traded for that pick, but the point is, I want to focus on the team philosophy of giving up immiediate improvement for the sake of future which was true there. Also recall that team had traded Joe Thornton a few years before that for the same reason. However, since none of these trades/picks turned out to play crucial roles, I do not attribute their cup to tanking.


Teams in red are those that didn't tank. VGK,KRA left out because of too recent expansion reasons.

From 06-24 is 19 cups. 11 teams did not tank. They won 1 cup: Red Wings, with much of the team built from years before and with lots of low draft picks from abroad. Still, I count them, and this means 11 teams that didn't tank have 1 cup between them.

Success ratio for non-tanking philosophy: 1/11 about 9%

Leaving the Vegas cup, and ignoring Boston and Anaheim, (that won cups and tanked but those two events were largely independent), we have 16 cups among the 19 teams that win cups because of tanking (including the current season).

Success ratio for tanking is 84%.

In summary, Bill. The process is very, very far from random. If we leave out the Detroit case, the 11 teams that never tanked would have had 19 seasons (total of 209 cracks at a championship and would have never succeeded). Even if we include Det, we still get one strategy being 9 times as succsseful as the other.

EDIT: minor typos

The litany of bad decisions since 2012 is staggering:

The JVR for Schenn trade

Selecting Morin at 11OA in 2013

Firing Lavi 3 games into 13-14 rather than at the end of the prior season. This would have prevented the signing of VLC

The AMac acquisition and extension

Hiring Hak and keeping him for way too long

Hiring Fletcher which led to AV and Hayes

Paying to lose Ghost so that they could massively overpay to acquire a worse player in Risto. Followed by extending Risto rather than moving him to recoup some assets

Gordon and Yeo

Hiring Torts and putting a glorified cheerleader at the top of the organization.

The bungling of Gauthier

I have zero faith in the Flyers at this point.
- BiggE

The majority of these moves are the result of the same philosophy of impatience that Snider showed leading to Bryz. Rather than understanding the need for a rebuild every year since 2013.

Boston hasn't tanked in quite a while and they routinely ice a contenting team although they've had a problem finishing the deal of late.
- Hextall271

I should clarify that I don't think you should tank either. But being a perpetual bubble team and jousting at windmills is also not the way to go.

jousting at windmills
- MBFlyerfan

The Flyers could make 2 moves to alter their rebuild.

Trade Konecny and Laughton.

With those to moves alone, add in Michkov, Barkey, Bonk, 2 first this year and 2 first next year plus whatever you get in a trade you already altered the rebuild pretty quickly.

I feel those are 2, easy moves in my mind, that would change the roster and build for a window closer to when Michkov arrives and more of your prospects are actually ready

Not true...that is the opinion of bitter Flyer Fans mostly. Briere dropped the ball on Gauthier...period.

Denying this does not make your point of view right in my books.
- TheFreak

All that we know for sure is their 2nd most talented prospect is no longer here. For a team starved for elite talent, it’s a huge black eye. The trade does not look like fair value on the surface.
Now I’m sure the kid is a ddikk….but in the end the loss that management took can’t be ignored.

It'd be great to know his side of the story but likely we won't. Really wish we could have kept him as Drysdale worries me.
- Hextall271

Mhm, I doubt we hear, and if we do, it’ll be past the point of caring. Unless of course he has a HOF career. Yikes.

Drysdale was pretty highly touted when he was drafted. Injuries brought down his stock low enough for us to get him after our project trashed our leverage in a trade.

Of course there was gonna be that risk with JD. We knew that. If he wasn’t a risk, then Anaheim wouldn’t have used him as a chip.

Only the Flyers could draft Sam Morin, trade JVR for Luke Schenn and offer sheet Weber all in a series of desperate moves to replace Pronger... with Andrew (frank)ing MacDonald being the culmination of those efforts.



- Tomahawk

he was a top pairing dman

The Flyers could make 2 moves to alter their rebuild.

Trade Konecny and Laughton.

With those to moves alone, add in Michkov, Barkey, Bonk, 2 first this year and 2 first next year plus whatever you get in a trade you already altered the rebuild pretty quickly.

I feel those are 2, easy moves in my mind, that would change the roster and build for a window closer to when Michkov arrives and more of your prospects are actually ready
- J35Bacher

I think Barkey is still a ways away. He needs to add some strength and get a year or 2 in Lehigh.

I should clarify that I don't think you should tank either. But being a perpetual bubble team and jousting at windmills is also not the way to go.
- MBFlyerfan

I think it is fine to think whatever one wants. But one should be clear-eyed about the consequences of such thinking: namely, giving up a strategy that is 9 times as likely to succeed.

You can have your pride or say you did your best to win. data very clearly says you can't do both.