So why are the Leafs' team failures being laid at Marner's feet and not Matthews' or Nylander's or Rielly's or Tavares'?

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is Captain Milquetoast makes $11m and doesn't do a goddamned thing to contribute, lead by example, or lead. I'm sincerely not even sure that the guys on the team really like him all that much. They all seemed to like Jumbo, Simmonds or Marleau more and they were only here for 2 years.
- Monkeypunk

Look at this UG over here.

Look at this UG over here.
- Rare_Jewel

I've said that "that guy" had some good points from time to time. I didn't always agree and mostly disagreed, but I can appreciate anyone who wants to eloquently state their point, even if I disagree with it. I'll even concede that there were a number of predictions / comments over the years that may have warmed on me in retrospect. There were also a number, like anyone's opinion, that didn't hold up too well.

What keeps me, personally, liking this site vs. something like Twitter is that the conversation can be had and isn't entirely full of people basely stating insulting platitudes. They're still there, but you can largely ignore them. It's also a nice small forum, so we have a relative idea of what to expect from each other. It's predictable at times, but it's also familiar.

You may hate the comparison but it was the Caps' 13th season after drafting Ovechkin.

I don't like how long it's taken to see ANY progress, I don't like the lack of progress or deeper playoff experience, just like everyone here.

I think I like what they've done with the D this year. I'm not that concerned about the loss of Bertuzzi, but I do believe that they still need to at least add a 3C. I wish they could upgrade 2C and move Tavares to LW but the cap is still a thing.

I saw your comments earlier about the goaltending, but Woll was our best goalie last year. I'm as concerned as anyone about his health, but Stolarz has been a very, very effective goalie. Matt Murray, if healthy, is a better insurance policy at #3 over Martin Jones.

Is it a cup team? I doubt it but I don't know. Colorado was soft until they weren't. Edmonton was soft until they weren't and now they're favourites. They have to find that right blend of toughness and skill and then get their skill players to play through the hard moments.
- Monkeypunk

Agree with everything here except the goaltending.

Remember how badly I wanted Hellebuyck last year? See what he did this year? If the Leafs had that type of goaltending this year, they could have beat Boston and given Florida a run for their money.

I think Stolarz was a big mistake in terms of his proven ability to be an insurance policy. Murray is a great plan C with no risk.

I think the Leafs really need to take a swing at Askarov. The Leafs need a back-up plan for Woll this season as well as for the future and Askarov could be capable of doing both for a limited cap hit.

Agree with everything here except the goaltending.

Remember how badly I wanted Hellebuyck last year? See what he did this year? If the Leafs had that type of goaltending this year, they could have beat Boston and given Florida a run for their money.

I think Stolarz was a big mistake in terms of his proven ability to be an insurance policy. Murray is a great plan C with no risk.

I think the Leafs really need to take a swing at Askarov. The Leafs need a back-up plan for Woll this season as well as for the future and Askarov could be capable of doing both for a limited cap hit.
- Rare_Jewel

I have no problem with Askarov - and I've seen your numerous posts on the subject. I think he's certainly a potential star, but I also think Nashville would want prospect capital that equates to a #13 pick - so probably Cowan and a 1st. That's an unfortunately realistic expectation for a #11oa goaltending prospect who projects to be a star.

The kid is 22, so Nashville still has control over him for a while. He won't command arbitration rights for at least 2 years, maybe 3 and won't have UFA rights for 5 barring an offer sheet. With Saros in his way he is absolutely a tradeable asset, but today Nashville can set the price and if they don't get it, they have time on their side.

Agree with everything here except the goaltending.

Remember how badly I wanted Hellebuyck last year? See what he did this year? If the Leafs had that type of goaltending this year, they could have beat Boston and given Florida a run for their money.

I think Stolarz was a big mistake in terms of his proven ability to be an insurance policy. Murray is a great plan C with no risk.

I think the Leafs really need to take a swing at Askarov. The Leafs need a back-up plan for Woll this season as well as for the future and Askarov could be capable of doing both for a limited cap hit.
- Rare_Jewel

Don't look at Hellebuyck's stats in the playoffs.

I have no problem with Askarov - and I've seen your numerous posts on the subject. I think he's certainly a potential star, but I also think Nashville would want prospect capital that equates to a #13 pick - so probably Cowan and a 1st. That's an unfortunately realistic expectation for a #11oa goaltending prospect who projects to be a star.

The kid is 22, so Nashville still has control over him for a while. He won't command arbitration rights for at least 2 years, maybe 3 and won't have UFA rights for 5 barring an offer sheet. With Saros in his way he is absolutely a tradeable asset, but today Nashville can set the price and if they don't get it, they have time on their side.
- Monkeypunk

I'd pay that price because I think it's worth it but I also think Nashville is very much in win now mode considering what they just did with their UFAs. So, perhaps they'd be okay with some guys who are more NHL ready for a playoff push rather than swapping a prospect for another prospect and a pick.

Thanks, Shanny.

But I disagree. The Leafs have utterly wasted the career of the best player their franchise has ever seen with a bunch of soft, overpaid female doges.

Enjoy the losing.
- fifty__missions

Agree with this.

Matthews is, has been, and continues to be wasted here with the wrong type of players around him due to the lack of Cap and balance of the team. That should never even be close to argued. It's truth. Thanks Dubas.

Whether its Marner, Tavares or Nylander...sure argue that. But truth is the truth. CORE 4. Everyone says it. Talking heads and all. Not sure why this is still argued on these message boards.

If anyone thinks AM is not being wasted by overpaid fancy wingers and a slow ass Captain, with porous defense and iffy goaltending because the Cap is depleted, then they know nothing about hockey.

Also, trading MM could get you Chris Pronger. WHICH.IS.THE.FUKING.POINT.

(losing JT or never signing him would help if everyone has their panties in a twist about losing MM. Doesn't matter, AM is being wasted either way)

Not as pretty for format, but I am sort of occupied while doing it!


23-24

Marner & Matthews: 3.7 - 2.6
Nylander & Matthews: 3.8 - 3.3
Matthews w/o Marner: 4.4 - 2.9
Marner w/o Matthews: 2.7 - 1.9
Matthews w/o Nylander: 4 - 2.4
Nylander w/o Matthews: 2.7 - 2.9
No Marner or Matthews: 2.6 - 2.6
No Nylander or Matthews: 2.5 - 2.3

22-23

Marner & Matthews: 3.7 - 2.2
Nylander & Matthews: 4.5 - 1.7
Matthews w/o Marner: 4.2 - 1.7
Marner w/o Matthews: 3.1 - 1.9
Matthews w/o Nylander: 3.5 - 2.2
Nylander w/o Matthews: 2.5 - 2.8
No Marner or Matthews: 2.1 - 2.4
No Nylander or Matthews: 2.3 - 2.1

21-22

Marner & Matthews: 4.8 - 2.9
Nylander & Matthews: 2.2 - 3.8
Matthews w/o Marner: 3.1 - 3
Marner w/o Matthews: 2.4 - 2.8
Matthews w/o Nylander: 4.7 - 2.7
Nylander w/o Matthews: 3.1 - 3.3
No Marner or Matthews: 2.7 - 2.6
No Nylander or Matthews: 2.5 - 2.3
- Monkeypunk

So WTF does it mean?

Good or bad?

Don't look at Hellebuyck's stats in the playoffs.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Where he faced 30-40 shots every game against Colorado?

That wasn't on him. They wouldn't have even made the playoffs if he didn't stand on his head the rest of the season. The Jets flopped in front of him, didn't even give him a chance.

Samsonov, by comparison, was facing as low as 17 shots against the Bruins. If the Leafs had Hellebuyck, or a goalie of his caliber, they would have done much better. That was proven when Woll took over...but then got hurt...

Marner isn’t worth $12.5+

End of story
- Dozzer

Fuking finally. Simple, elegant and so fuking true!

Also, trading MM could get you Chris Pronger. WHICH.IS.THE.FUKING.POINT.
- underhill14

Name the player as good or better than Pronger whom the Leafs can acquire for Marner.

I'll wait...

Look if this really happens and Mitch is really a no-show in the playoffs then I'm sure no one will be all that sad when he leaves and between him and Tavares give us $22m in capspace.

Let's play the games.
- Monkeypunk

Steal some value before he walks?

Some of us think he sucks in the playoffs now. Why wait for him to prove it for an 8th time and walk for nothing??? Get a fuking 3C and 1-3RHD for him now.

Name the player as good or better than Pronger whom the Leafs can acquire for Marner.

I'll wait...
- Rare_Jewel

Shut up.

Shut up.
- underhill14

Is that a Czech name?

All this arguing about our two best wingers got me thinking. I couldn't remember a single player putting up numbers like that on the Habs in forever. I looked it up and its been over 30 years since the Montreal Canadiens have had a 40 goal scorer and almost 40 years since they've had a player score 99 or more points. I don't really have a point to this post but that's pretty wild IMO
- PlatosRepucklic

Your point is, they made the fuking finals and beat the Leafs to do it.

Your point Plato, 50 and Underhill are right.

So why are the Leafs' team failures being laid at Marner's feet and not Matthews' or Nylander's or Rielly's or Tavares'?

The biggest problem, in my opinion, is Captain Milquetoast makes $11m and doesn't do a goddamned thing to contribute, lead by example, or lead. I'm sincerely not even sure that the guys on the team really like him all that much. They all seemed to like Jumbo, Simmonds or Marleau more and they were only here for 2 years.
- Monkeypunk

This part.

I can't stand JT or his contract or the fact that he wears the C.

But unfortunately, Marner is a more immediate problem and a playoff issue. JT is one year away from fuking off. Marner is either walking for nothing but Cap space or staying to ruin the Cap space.

One of these overpaid asshats has to go. JT is a huge "no can do" so it's no-nuts-Marner since Willy is already signed.

Could be either of the three, don't care, none earn their paycheck and all are messing with the balance but one is now about to ask for even more for still proving nothing in the winning category.

The revolving door of Cap rape has to stop sooner than later because Matthews is being wasted.

Marner is the ONLY fix right now.

(One of JT or Willy can suck it instead, but just can't do shiite about them right now)

Agree with this.

Matthews is, has been, and continues to be wasted here with the wrong type of players around him due to the lack of Cap and balance of the team. That should never even be close to argued. It's truth. Thanks Dubas.

Whether its Marner, Tavares or Nylander...sure argue that. But truth is the truth. CORE 4. Everyone says it. Talking heads and all. Not sure why this is still argued on these message boards.

If anyone thinks AM is not being wasted by overpaid fancy wingers and a slow ass Captain, with porous defense and iffy goaltending because the Cap is depleted, then they know nothing about hockey.

Also, trading MM could get you Chris Pronger. WHICH.IS.THE.FUKING.POINT.

(losing JT or never signing him would help if everyone has their panties in a twist about losing MM. Doesn't matter, AM is being wasted either way)
- underhill14

How and to whom?

Auston Matthews is an insanely good player. Because he's of sleight frame and is shorter, Mitch Marner is not? Matthews also has been medicore in the playoffs.

The reason John Tavares is noted is because he's done very little in the playoffs (1 GWG in all his time here in the playoffs) and I never see him do anything to inspire the team, including the documentary where they could have shown us literally _anything_. We're dying to see Tavares show some type of leadership. Give me a reason to believe in this guy.

If JT is gone at the end of this year and there's $11m more on the books and Marner is still here, I truly believe this team could be successful. Dubas made a massive mistake in signing Tavares. We needed a $5m second line centre and at least $6m more in defense to give us a stud defenseman. Imagine if Brodie was an actually capable $11m defenseman? But the truth is none are available.

Just like none were available when we did sign JT.

This part.

I can't stand JT or his contract or the fact that he wears the C.

But unfortunately, Marner is a more immediate problem and a playoff issue. JT is one year away from fuking off. Marner is either walking for nothing but Cap space or staying to ruin the Cap space.

One of these overpaid asshats has to go. JT is a huge "no can do" so it's no-nuts-Marner since Willy is already signed.

Could be either of the three, don't care, none earn their paycheck and all are messing with the balance but one is now about to ask for even more for still proving nothing in the winning category.

The revolving door of Cap rape has to stop sooner than later because Matthews is being wasted.

Marner is the ONLY fix right now.

(One of JT or Willy can suck it instead, but just can't do shiite about them right now)
- underhill14

Trading Marner is the dumbest solution to this problem with Tavares about to come off the books.

He's one of the Leafs best players, in his prime and he's a hometown kid.

He will not waive. And if he walks for nothing, the Leafs are screwed.

Even slightly overpaying him is still a manageable situation for the team because he is still an elite playmaker and solid two-way player.

Let's also try really hard to remember that Matthews is good friends with Marner. The player you so badly want to "help" doesn't have a problem with Marner. In fact, he probably strongly prefers he stay on the team.

Tavares gone = 11 AAV. Marner gets 1.5 extra AAV. That's still 9.5 AAV, plus the rise in the cap to 92 AAV, so 13.5 AAV, to sign a new 2C and add more D or sign more LWs.

There's still money to get the job done. Just a matter of not wasting it anymore.

Long time creeper, love reading the comments, makes me chuckle and/or swear at my computer (I'm somewhat old), this might be be my 6th comment in the last 10 - 15 years. Might get banned for language, don't care. To Retarded Jewel (aka UG) and Alcoholic (frank)tard / Tanooki / Horse Jizz; Marner is very talented. He is also a complete (frank)ing wussy who is scared to death of taking contact in the playoffs. We all saw it multiple times this past year. Anyone who has played this sport knows that you can't have guys who are not willing to give it all when it counts, and little female dog is not not that guy. If little female dog is gone for nothing but cap space this time next year, the Leafs will be better for it. Shout out to Dozzer, Galactic Stone, Skalapy, Monkeypunk, GreatGig, Big23, The Law, hell even Dozzer10. Most people on here get it. A few do not...

Long time creeper, love reading the comments, makes me chuckle and/or swear at my computer (I'm somewhat old), this might be be my 6th comment in the last 10 - 15 years. Might get banned for language, don't care. To Retarded Jewel (aka UG) and Alcoholic (frank)tard / Tanooki / Horse Jizz; Marner is very talented. He is also a complete (frank)ing wussy who is scared to death of taking contact in the playoffs. We all saw it multiple times this past year. Anyone who has played this sport knows that you can't have guys who are not willing to give it all when it counts, and little female dog is not not that guy. If little female dog is gone for nothing but cap space this time next year, the Leafs will be better for it. Shout out to Dozzer, Galactic Stone, Skalapy, Monkeypunk, GreatGig, Big23, The Law, hell even Dozzer10. Most people on here get it. A few do not...
- graemet13

Welcome to posting (again).

The thing is, I'm not for trading or losing Marner. I recognize that he has his flaws and is not a physical player but I also say that any team that has a smaller star player gets larger players to insulate that player. The Leafs have done nothing to protect their smaller and less physical players and allowed the fanbase to just verbally assault these guys - like it's fair.

Simply put - like Kane, you're 5'8 and 175 lbs, say, and guys who are 6'4 and 230 lbs are trying to run you into the boards. You should NEVER be expected to engage with that - but someone on your team should be making sure that the other team knows WHO to engage.

Mitch Marner is one of the most talented Leafs to ever wear the uniform and has never had the support he needs to be successful. Matthews is a notably large man who's never once stepped up for his teammate.

And I've mentioned this before, but it's really important to note: Kane was always undersized but his wingers and teammates made sure that he was protected. As such he flourished. Mitch Marner has never been protected on the Leafs and as such he's been injured on a number of occasions in the playoffs.

The first time I ever saw Marner recoil from hits was last year - that was the FIRST time - and he's been hit a lot. He was playing injured and for some reason he's the guy we've decided to villainize for losing to Boston.

I'm asking the Leaf fanbase to recognize that despite his smaller stature, we have a great player in our midst and to please stop trying to push him out.

Marner is not the problem with the core. Tavares is.

Fun scheduling that the Leafs start the season on the road in Montreal and then play the next night in Jersey against Sheldon Keefe.

Welcome to posting (again).

The thing is, I'm not for trading or losing Marner. I recognize that he has his flaws and is not a physical player but I also say that any team that has a smaller star player gets larger players to insulate that player. The Leafs have done nothing to protect their smaller and less physical players and allowed the fanbase to just verbally assault these guys - like it's fair.

Simply put - like Kane, you're 5'8 and 175 lbs, say, and guys who are 6'4 and 230 lbs are trying to run you into the boards. You should NEVER be expected to engage with that - but someone on your team should be making sure that the other team knows WHO to engage.

Mitch Marner is one of the most talented Leafs to ever wear the uniform and has never had the support he needs to be successful. Matthews is a notably large man who's never once stepped up for his teammate.

And I've mentioned this before, but it's really important to note: Kane was always undersized but his wingers and teammates made sure that he was protected. As such he flourished. Mitch Marner has never been protected on the Leafs and as such he's been injured on a number of occasions in the playoffs.

The first time I ever saw Marner recoil from hits was last year - that was the FIRST time - and he's been hit a lot. He was playing injured and for some reason he's the guy we've decided to villainize for losing to Boston.

I'm asking the Leaf fanbase to recognize that despite his smaller stature, we have a great player in our midst and to please stop trying to push him out.

Marner is not the problem with the core. Tavares is.
- Monkeypunk

150% this. 👍

150% this. 👍
- GalacticStone

Hey your smallish winger excelled in the playoffs for years and it's not because Point or Stammer were beating guys up for him.

Welcome to posting (again).

The thing is, I'm not for trading or losing Marner. I recognize that he has his flaws and is not a physical player but I also say that any team that has a smaller star player gets larger players to insulate that player. The Leafs have done nothing to protect their smaller and less physical players and allowed the fanbase to just verbally assault these guys - like it's fair.

Simply put - like Kane, you're 5'8 and 175 lbs, say, and guys who are 6'4 and 230 lbs are trying to run you into the boards. You should NEVER be expected to engage with that - but someone on your team should be making sure that the other team knows WHO to engage.

Mitch Marner is one of the most talented Leafs to ever wear the uniform and has never had the support he needs to be successful. Matthews is a notably large man who's never once stepped up for his teammate.

And I've mentioned this before, but it's really important to note: Kane was always undersized but his wingers and teammates made sure that he was protected. As such he flourished. Mitch Marner has never been protected on the Leafs and as such he's been injured on a number of occasions in the playoffs.

The first time I ever saw Marner recoil from hits was last year - that was the FIRST time - and he's been hit a lot. He was playing injured and for some reason he's the guy we've decided to villainize for losing to Boston.

I'm asking the Leaf fanbase to recognize that despite his smaller stature, we have a great player in our midst and to please stop trying to push him out.

Marner is not the problem with the core. Tavares is.
- Monkeypunk

I don’t agree:

1. Kane is not at all a good comparison. The only comparable is size. Kane never played with bruisers and the Leafs have had guys last couple seasons to keep other teams honest in that regard in the playoffs for example. It also doesn’t need to come as a same line presence. I don’t buy that at all that Kane was ‘protected’ so he flourished. Kane plays with 10x the intensity Marner does. His compete is so incredibly higher than mitch. He’s also chippy and is a scoring threat as well as a passing threat. He also never fails to rise to a big game.

2. I have seen Mitch duck contact his whole nhl career - but that is an opinion thing I suppose.

3. Bold: figuratively right? This is hockeybuzz and hardly leafs nation. More importantly fans don’t actually run players out of town.

4. Having 4 players eat up the cap is the problem. You can’t blame one player. It’s the repeated argument here: Willy/JT/Mitchy. You already know from last million posts where I stand on that. So I won’t restate but will say the smart call is mitchy gone.

Anyone know of any good true crime docs/shows?

I watched American Nightmare lastnight and now I’m craving more.

Missing 411 was my fav so far..
- Horsey Sauce

I assume most have already watched making a murderer, the staircase and the jinx.
iv watched almost every true crime thing I can find.

I also liked the the innocence files and Death Row Stories (narrated by Susan Sarandon)

but yeah, American Nightmare was wild. some cops are so bad at what they do