I agree on Marner. Disagree on Matthews. They were also paying for more potential and on that contract deal he got 60 goals and 69. I think 11.6 million is fair value for those type of stats.
- Aaron_85

Now.
But it would have been better value at 9.8m to 10m.
Up until he signed the contract, he only scored 40 goals once.
Then he only signed for 5 years. It was an overpayment as well.

Now.
But it would have been better value at 9.8m to 10m.
Up until he signed the contract, he only scored 40 goals once.
Then he only signed for 5 years. It was an overpayment as well.
- Fakepartofme

I think Matthews is the new era of superstars with shorter deals. I dont think 5 years is a problem and it would have been a deal at 5 million too but it wasn't happening.

McKinnon at 6 million looked really sus for awhile. It worked out though so not an overpay. He lived upto his contract just as Matthews has, and Matthews has surpassed it. But that is subjective and my opinion only.

Huh...I did not notice that Toffoli signed in SJ for four years.

1. Go look at who Kane's linemates were when they won cups. How big and heavy were they? They made space, won board battles and made room for Kane to dash and dish. If you didn't watch, that's fine - but while Kane is more of a shooter than Marner is, the style is very similar but the expectations of what they need to do on the ice to be successful are very different from this fan base. You should also look at Kane's linemates the last couple of years in the playoffs and how he fared.

(If you want a source, go here: https://moneypuck.com/lines.htm select Chicago, Offensive Lines Only, Playoffs, Goals and start at 2016-17 where he was -1 with no goals, the year before he was -3 with no goals, the year before with Bickell and Richards his line was +2 with 6 goals . . . )

2. No. You haven't. That was Nylander most of his career. He's been much better of late. The first time I ever noticed Mitch ducking contact was against Florida last year - not for nothing but half of this team was ducking contact in that series. Mitch ducked contact this year in the playoffs and I still maintain he was not 100%. I know a lot of people who took 6-12 months after a high ankle sprain to have full range of motion again and mitch came back after 6 weeks.

3. Larry Murphy. You, as a Wings fan, should at least know this.

4. I know the cap up front is unsustainable. Trading a guy in his prime so you can keep a guy who clearly deteriorating before our eyes isn't the solution. I know they can't trade Tavares because he won't waive - and apparently that's okay with everyone - but they have to trade Mitch and the fact that he won't waive makes him a gigantic piece of trash? It's hypocritical and short sighted since Marner is a stick that stirs the drink. I would extend him for $11.5m, let Tavares walk into the sunset, and if this year is a write-off then so be it.

Now I have said and maintain that if there was a hockey trade out there - like Marner for prime Doughty - then you do that all day. But there isn't. Moving Marner just because they lost to Boston when they would have won if the coach hadn't started the worst goalie option for 3 straight games despite having Marner playing hurt (my contention, not proven), Matthews playing hurt and Nylander dealing with migraines/concussion symptoms - and all that and they lost in OT in game 7? It's an overreaction.
- Monkeypunk

1. An absolute ridiculous argument. Mitchy shouldn’t have to win board battles? Jesus.

2. Yes. Yes I have. Constantly.

3. You honestly are so delusional that you think you are talking to Leafs Nation on here and they will listen. And then adding to the delusion that fans are deterring what players stay or go?….and I’m done with you.

4. Moving Marner for all the reasons I stated in my last 190 posts. Make the team better, spread around cap to multiple areas. It’s failed for 8 years NOT just against Boston. 8 years. As a leafs fan you should know this.

Cheers man enjoy the summer.

Huh...I did not notice that Toffoli signed in SJ for four years.
- Aaron_85

The man has played in 5 different teams (Vancouver, Montreal, New Jersey, Calgary, Winnipeg) since 2020. I'm guessing his priority was finding a place to settle down with his family for a while.

Good player, great teamate, loved him in Montreal. Will be a fine leader on a rebuilding Sharks team.

I also heard San Jose isn't a bad place to live so his family should be fine.

Huh...I did not notice that Toffoli signed in SJ for four years.
- Aaron_85

6+M cap hit too

The man has played in 5 different teams (Vancouver, Montreal, New Jersey, Calgary, Winnipeg) since 2020. I'm guessing his priority was finding a place to settle down with his family for a while.

Good player, great teamate, loved him in Montreal. Will be a fine leader on a rebuilding Sharks team.

I also heard San Jose isn't a bad place to live so his family should be fine.
- Scabeh

Oh for sure. I think he wanted some certainty and maybe realized when he keeps chasing a cup it ain't happening so might as well collect 6 million/year and live in a nice place. If he wants to get a cup maybe he's traded at the end of the 4 years.

6+M cap hit too
- dmnted

Yeah he still scored 33 goals last year and like 60 pts. 6 million isn't crazy for that production.

6+M cap hit too
- dmnted

Nice place to retire until you're 35 and about to poop the bed and somebody gives a 3rd to have a Cup winning veteran for a playoff run. Especially after all the years in Canada

I agree with Monkey and think that the JT contract did drive up the price of Matthews and Marner. The other thing that changed right in around that time was the RFA started getting paid. McDavid really changed that landscape. I do not remember RFA getting paid that close to UFA in the past. For example JT only made $5.5 million on his bridge deal.

I agree with Monkey and think that the JT contract did drive up the price of Matthews and Marner. The other thing that changed right in around that time was the RFA started getting paid. McDavid really changed that landscape. I do not remember RFA getting paid that close to UFA in the past. For example JT only made $5.5 million on his bridge deal.
- jribout

Bridge deals are dead for the superstars.

No accountant worth their salt lets a millionaire player pay the correct amount of taxes they owe. Be real.
- AdamFrench

SO THIS!

PS, one thing that gets glossed over is the fact that all contracts are in US dollars so any Canadian earning $10M USD is actually getting $14M CA.

I deal in finance a lot. The tax issue is not about "state tax" or not, it's about a good accountant or not. Lose $3M in taxes one year, earn $4M in investments the next.

You bluecollar dudes might not understand that when you're talking about tens of millions, individuals being wrapped in LLCs or Corporations, the tax convo is very different than $40/hr and grabbing your paycheck on a Friday.

It's certainly a conversation but at the same time a lot of people said Matthews was moving home due to taxes and being American. He signed here once again when he didn't have to. Clearly he either doesn't care about the taxes or has set up some tax havens for himself to make it negligible.
- Aaron_85

The point is not whether they would sign here the point is that it costs some teams more cap space to sign players than it does other teams. It is a significant advantage.

No accountant worth their salt lets a millionaire player pay the correct amount of taxes they owe. Be real.
- AdamFrench

I think you're confusing accountants with money launderers. Accountants are giving them the best advice possible but income taxes are income taxes.

As MP mentioned ..their are some solutions for US residents that make it better but for Canadian residents it's not so good unless you want to defer most of your income to late in life ...and even then you may just be deferring the potential risks.

Bridge deals are dead for the superstars.
- Aaron_85

Yes and it happened just around the time we finally had 2 of them.

I think you're confusing accountants with money launderers. Accountants are giving them the best advice possible but income taxes are income taxes.

As MP mentioned ..their are some solutions for US residents that make it better but for Canadian residents it's not so good unless you want to defer most of your income to late in life ...and even then you may just be deferring the potential risks.
- The Law

Allan Walsh went on record saying if an agent doesn't (frank) around with the money and how it will be paid out, they failed at their job.

I trust a douchebag agent who deals with millionaires for a living and puts things in their contracts to avoid paying taxes over people googling the state/province tax of a place and comparing it to the yearly earnings announced.

SO THIS!

PS, one thing that gets glossed over is the fact that all contracts are in US dollars so any Canadian earning $10M USD is actually getting $14M CA.

I deal in finance a lot. The tax issue is not about "state tax" or not, it's about a good accountant or not. Lose $3M in taxes one year, earn $4M in investments the next.

You bluecollar dudes might not understand that when you're talking about tens of millions, individuals being wrapped in LLCs or Corporations, the tax convo is very different than $40/hr and grabbing your paycheck on a Friday.
- underhill14

But isn't everything more expensive in Canada?

Bridge deals are dead for the superstars.
- Aaron_85

None of our boys were superstars are the time.
Jts contract help to drive up am and mm's contracts and dubas overpaid.
Simple as that.

But isn't everything more expensive in Canada?
- jribout

Allan Walsh went on record saying if an agent doesn't (frank) around with the money and how it will be paid out, they failed at their job.

I trust a douchebag agent who deals with millionaires for a living and puts things in their contracts to avoid paying taxes over people googling the state/province tax of a place and comparing it to the yearly earnings announced.
- AdamFrench

Allan Walsh isn't an accountant ...he's an agent. Agents work within the scope of the CBA ...not tax law.

Walsh did not say that there aren't significant tax differences that influence decisions. What Walsh was talking about when he was asked about the tax discrepancy and whether it influenced his client/athletes generally was exactly what I referenced before. There are ways to avoid some income taxes based on residency. That helps US residents playing in Canada. And there are solutions for Canadian/US residents, such as RCA's, that help lower income taxes. However, to gain most of those advantages you have to defer much of your income until retirement.

Some of these athletes and high earner prefer to have the money now rather than be forced to wait.

Players receive paycheques made out in their own names ...that's income. It has to be declared. You don't get to use witchcraft and smoke and mirrors to with CRA or the IRS. You use the machinery that is provided in the "tax laws" that exist.

None of our boys were superstars are the time.
Jts contract help to drive up am and mm's contracts and dubas overpaid.
Simple as that.
- Fakepartofme

34 was overpaid? From 2019/20 - this past season?

Allan Walsh went on record saying if an agent doesn't (frank) around with the money and how it will be paid out, they failed at their job.

I trust a douchebag agent who deals with millionaires for a living and puts things in their contracts to avoid paying taxes over people googling the state/province tax of a place and comparing it to the yearly earnings announced.
- AdamFrench

JT’s agent and accountant didn’t (frank) around setting payment structures and tax mechanisms to minimize his tax bill. Unfortunately, CRA said not so fast. If they win in tax court, it will limit how much Canadian teams can use signing bonuses to reduce tax bills.

Walsh is right that there’s lots you can do but at the end of the day it’s hard to beat 0% state tax.

34 was overpaid? From 2019/20 - this past season?
- Big23Questions

Initially yes.
He eventually played up to his contract for sure.
But still, could have saved a million or so.

Allan Walsh went on record saying if an agent doesn't (frank) around with the money and how it will be paid out, they failed at their job.

I trust a douchebag agent who deals with millionaires for a living and puts things in their contracts to avoid paying taxes over people googling the state/province tax of a place and comparing it to the yearly earnings announced.
- AdamFrench

Allan Walsh talked specifically about retirement deferral options.

At the time that money is paid to you, you owe some of it to the CRA - that's the law. The only way around it is to not take the money and invest it prior to it being _yours_. As soon as the money reaches you it has a tax rate applicable and I forget the threshold, but basically over $220k or so you're at 53%.

Now you talk about tax shelters or write-offs but all a write-off does is lower your taxable income - so if you're Mitch Marner being paid $10.9m and you want to lower your tax bracket you need to find a way to put $10.8m into charitable investments so that you're only paying taxes on $100k. I am not an accountant, but I'm also certain that there's a maximum amount you can put into this.

Basically outside of retirement deferrals (which also have caps) he's at a 53% rate legally. Anything else he'd do probably lands him in hot water with the CRA.

There's a massive difference between personal tax and corporate tax and finance as well. Monies transferred from business entity to business entity have different rates as do some transactions.

My wife was a corporate tax accountant for over 20 years and did some people's personal taxes on the side from time to time - I did not care about it at all, but as a caring husband who doesn't want to mysteriously die in his sleep I did listen to her talk about it when she needed to vent.

But ultimately it's this: Pay your taxes now or pay less of them much, much later.

Initially yes.
He eventually played up to his contract for sure.
But still, could have saved a million or so.
- Fakepartofme

Oh man I don’t see it. When it comes to contracts I feel Mitch’s was certainly overpaid and Willy on this last by about a million (should be 10.5 to me). But at same time Willy ( in hindsight) was underpaid on his previous contract. So wash it I guess…but still too much I feel. Willy doesn’t contribute both sides of the puck enough and again is winger (that scores though which is key…I’m running in circles!)


2019/20 - 2023/24 - Matthews

GP- 350
G - 257
Pts - 444

Add in the act he was unreal defensively through that time and added that to his team as well. The biggest reason to justify his contract is to look at the fact he is a centre (much more important than a wing 5v5) and scores that much while being more than responsible - but impactful from the defensive side of the game.