With all these defensive forwards, is it wishful thinking to expect a top8 PK?
- QuinnFan

Definitely could get there, could be a dangerous PK with all that speed

You keep mentioning perimeter stuff. I think the league as a whole has adjusted to that and higher pressure PK's are the standard. The trend is now beating that down low. Something I'm not sure they have the guys for.
- Lunaion

I do because goals aren't scored from the wall, they're further in. So it's a big deal if Tage is beyond the circle on one timers instead of uncorking from just inside. Couple feet makes a world of difference.

And while you're right, going low and jamming the net can be a tactic to counter this, it's just as successful as good passing high. You can't send 3 high, so in the umbrella, if you can distribute properly, you can kill a pressure PK setup too. I think that'd be the better tactic for these guys. Tage has to fake a few, draw guys, then get it cross ice.

PP isn't really about pure talent.
- Lunaion

Of course it isn't. But the question was, should we be concerned whether it's a talent or coaching issue, or both I guess.

it was a coaching issue, an issue that really damaged some teams before they knew how to defend Buffalo, and a coaching issue that never changed any dynamics of the PP. Matt Ellis utterly failed at running it and so did Don.

No. It's like the same thing as free agency. Sign your deal with the school and that's that.
- TheSabresTaco

Thanks

Helps, but spot on
- Buff36

That’s why skinner was never a good fit on the pp

Talented yes, good for the pp , no imo

Thanks
- Buff36

matteo costantini endured the same thing last year. switched from UND to WMU. No limbo.

While everyone should agree that playoffs become more chippy/physical, it's still the pretty, skilled scorers getting the job done. They're just less efficient usually.

https://www.quanthockey.c...layers-playoff-stats.html

This list is comprised almost entirely of top6 players.
- QuinnFan

Agreed, but also believe that the skilled players that we consider elite or very good adapt, the skilled players that don't adapt become less of a factor. I didn't pay close attention to him, but am wondering if this is the issue with Marner. McDavid and Barkov were willing to play that playoff style.

Sabres did their best to alex ovechkin tage thompson but it was their only move.

their shooting charts are embarrassing.

Agreed, but also believe that the skilled players that we consider elite or very good adapt, the skilled players that don't adapt become less of a factor. I didn't pay close attention to him, but am wondering if this is the issue with Marner. McDavid and Barkov were willing to play that playoff style.
- BuffaloHerd

barkov was the player I watched most. he was the conn smythe imo

I do because goals aren't scored from the wall, they're further in. So it's a big deal if Tage is beyond the circle on one timers instead of uncorking from just inside. Couple feet makes a world of difference.

And while you're right, going low and jamming the net can be a tactic to counter this, it's just as successful as good passing high. You can't send 3 high, so in the umbrella, if you can distribute properly, you can kill a pressure PK setup too. I think that'd be the better tactic for these guys. Tage has to fake a few, draw guys, then get it cross ice.
- QuinnFan

I just don't think a PP can make a living solely on the perimeter anymore. Is Tuch much of down low/net front threat? Is anyone a fit at the bumper spot? That's where I question their talent. They have shooters, but that isn't enough.

I do because goals aren't scored from the wall, they're further in. So it's a big deal if Tage is beyond the circle on one timers instead of uncorking from just inside. Couple feet makes a world of difference.

And while you're right, going low and jamming the net can be a tactic to counter this, it's just as successful as good passing high. You can't send 3 high, so in the umbrella, if you can distribute properly, you can kill a pressure PK setup too. I think that'd be the better tactic for these guys. Tage has to fake a few, draw guys, then get it cross ice.
- QuinnFan

So many teams we play seem to employ the pressure pk against us, and it brings 2 questions to mind for me: How can you beat it (you just gave one answer with the umbrella) but are there others? and #2: Why don't the Sabres employ it on their own pk? On both special teams we always seem so...passive and it drives me bananas.

With all these defensive forwards, is it wishful thinking to expect a top8 PK?
- QuinnFan

At this point in time, are we not banking on it to help offset the lost Skinner goals?

Of course it isn't. But the question was, should we be concerned whether it's a talent or coaching issue, or both I guess.

it was a coaching issue, an issue that really damaged some teams before they knew how to defend Buffalo, and a coaching issue that never changed any dynamics of the PP. Matt Ellis utterly failed at running it and so did Don.
- TheSabresTaco

I think finding the right 5 guys is part of the solution here. Not feeling compelled to put Skinner out is a good start.

So many teams we play seem to employ the pressure pk against us, and it brings 2 questions to mind for me: How can you beat it (you just gave one answer with the umbrella) but are there others? and #2: Why don't the Sabres employ it on their own pk? On both special teams we always seem so...passive and it drives me bananas.
- LandlordTom

Because they lacked the speed and quickness to do it. I think that played a big role in their additions this summer. Girgs and Greenway are not high pressure defenders.

Do you think the new 4th line scores as many points as Girgensons and okposo?

Assuming Krebs has a better season , hard to have less than 4 goals this season
- Boss34

Girgenson ATOI was 11:51 last Season posting 8/6/14, while Kyle was 13:37 posting 12/10/22.
Both had each other as most common forward teammate, along with Krebs, then E Robinson.
4th liners for sure.

Yes, I could see the new 4th line being far more effective in impacting the game in a positive way with say ~12:30 ATOI. Faster, heavier on forecheck, better pressure, able to retrieve pucks better.

As far as scoring, I 'd say relatively the same on a cumulative basis.

Let's face it, anytime a 4th liner puts up a point, it was a good day for them

I think finding the right 5 guys is part of the solution here. Not feeling compelled to put Skinner out is a good start.
- Lunaion

For sure it is. Getting a dirty goal guy in place is vital. Tuch can probably be there. Cozens might be able to as well. Gotta have hands.

Agreed, but also believe that the skilled players that we consider elite or very good adapt, the skilled players that don't adapt become less of a factor. I didn't pay close attention to him, but am wondering if this is the issue with Marner. McDavid and Barkov were willing to play that playoff style.
- BuffaloHerd

Fair. And not sure, I refuse to watch Loaf hockey lol.

barkov was the player I watched most. he was the conn smythe imo
- TheSabresTaco

My wife grew up in rural Illinois and every summer I joke that she's a candidate for the Corn Scythe trophy.

There's an old legend in her Illinois family about a long-lost neice who went missing from a turnip farm back in the 1970s. I tell them it's likely she will turn up one of these days.

I agree with you on Barkov, he got hosed but at least he got to be the first to hold the Cup.

I just don't think a PP can make a living solely on the perimeter anymore. Is Tuch much of down low/net front threat? Is anyone a fit at the bumper spot? That's where I question their talent. They have shooters, but that isn't enough.
- Lunaion

I hear ya there, it isn't like we can lean on McLeod or Zucker in those positions either, so not much coming in to help down low. That's the only reason why I'd think spreading out up top and quicker puck movement is the key.

So many teams we play seem to employ the pressure pk against us, and it brings 2 questions to mind for me: How can you beat it (you just gave one answer with the umbrella) but are there others? and #2: Why don't the Sabres employ it on their own pk? On both special teams we always seem so...passive and it drives me bananas.
- LandlordTom

Good points. Points I wish I had the answers to. It's the one reason I could see us improving. I know I've beaten up the roster moves ad nauseum, but the coaching change was needed and positive. So hopefully they see what we all do and do institute a more aggressive playstyle on both sides.

I hear ya there, it isn't like we can lean on McLeod or Zucker in those positions either, so not much coming in to help down low. That's the only reason why I'd think spreading out up top and quicker puck movement is the key.
- QuinnFan

Might be the best place for Zucker, in front on the PP

At this point in time, are we not banking on it to help offset the lost Skinner goals?
- BuffaloHerd

Good point

Looks like lines 3 and 4 likely will drop off on scoring.

The big guns have to step up on lines 1 and 2

Girgenson ATOI was 11:51 last Season posting 8/6/14, while Kyle was 13:37 posting 12/10/22.
Both had each other as most common forward teammate, along with Krebs, then E Robinson.
4th liners for sure.

Yes, I could see the new 4th line being far more effective in impacting the game in a positive way with say ~12:30 ATOI. Faster, heavier on forecheck, better pressure, able to retrieve pucks better.

As far as scoring, I 'd say relatively the same on a cumulative basis.

Let's face it, anytime a 4th liner puts up a point, it was a good day for them
- IonSabres

Solid post

I mean its literally impossible... I get its fiction but gawd damn did any of those women take a science class ?
- DirtyDan

Rejected as being patriarchal propaganda

I hear ya there, it isn't like we can lean on McLeod or Zucker in those positions either, so not much coming in to help down low. That's the only reason why I'd think spreading out up top and quicker puck movement is the key.
- QuinnFan

and I firmly believe the key is generating pressure from down low

Fresh off the finals, Sam had 27 PP G's and Leon had 21. Look where they score them from. An element the Sabres haven't had since Sam left.