There's plenty of evidence, how many over the hill Leafs acquisitions do you need to believe it?

Giordano, Klingberg, Spezza, Thornton, Marleau, Nolan, Francis, Wesley, Leech, Housley, Corson, Marchment...how many do you need?

Tavares, at his best and at his most overpaid, did not do enough to get the job done for the Leafs. Tavares at 34-40 will not be better than what we just had for the last 6 years. Unless he's playing for league minimum (hint: he won't) he's not going to be worth his next contract just like he wasn't worth his last one. He's slow, he sucks on defense and will not age well.
- Rare_Jewel

But none of that evidence that it factually means the Leafs chance will decrease. That’s your opinion…I wasn’t taking about whether Leafs have signed older players in the past. That wasn’t the discussion point man.

League minimum? Bud you’re out to lunch eh. You are way too emotional over this - cause in no way is JT a league minimum player.

You say things like: “he will not be worth his next contract…” - how do you know? (Hint: you don’t).

Again, all opinions - but I think he would crush it as a 3C who’s solid face offs, can add some offence, and play on a PP.

80GP
29G
36A

A league minimum player? You think he will go from 65pts to 15-20 pts (worthy of a league min) next 3 years if he signs fit 3 more with Leafs? That’s an odd take man….he's not a Cal Clutterbuck at 36 throwing up 19pts

But none of that evidence that it factually means the Leafs chance will decrease. That’s your opinion…I wasn’t taking about whether Leafs have signed older players in the past. That wasn’t the discussion point man.

League minimum? Bud you’re out to lunch eh. You are way too emotional over this - cause in no way is JT a league minimum player.

You say things like: “he will not be worth his next contract…” - how do you know? (Hint: you don’t).

Again, all opinions - but I think he would crush it as a 3C who’s solid face offs, can add some offence, and play on a PP.

80GP
29G
36A

A league minimum player? You think he will go from 65pts to 15-20 pts (worthy of a league min) next 3 years if he signs fit 3 more with Leafs? That’s an odd take man….he's not a Cal Clutterbuck at 36 throwing up 19pts
- Big23Questions

Tavares sucks balls at playing defense (aka 3rd line role) and has always been a below average skater. The odds of him succeeding in a 3rd line role are laughable. If he's not scoring, he's useless and as he ages, his scoring is declining.

Yes, old players need to be league minimum players because if they suck, as they usually do because they're older, you can dispose of them easily and replace them. Experience is valuable but only if it's cheap and useful. Unlike Tavares, guys like Clutterbuck are built to play bottom-six minutes. Tavares is not made to play in the bottom six and is getting too old to succeed in the top-six.

Okposo was the oldest forward on the Panthers last year at 35. He played 6 games and 17 playoff games (0 goals 2 assists) and made 2.5 AAV. Basically a zero impact player at his age and was there just for the ride. You think Tavares is going to sign for less than that? You obviously don't but you believe he can score 29 goals as a 3rd line center. Yeah, I got a bridge to sell you.

Vegas? Kessel was 34. Colorado? Cogliano / Helm both 34. Tampa Bay x 2? Maroon was 31 and 32. St. Louis? Steen was 34. Washington? Ovechkin was 31.

That's the list of most recent Cup winners and the team's oldest forward.

Tavares will be 34 this season and be 35-40 on his future seasons but is going to break that trend playing in a role he's not built to succeed in? Doubt it. If he can't get it done this year, show him the door and never bring him back.

Okposo was the oldest forward on the Panthers last year at 35. He played 6 games and 17 playoff games (0 goals 2 assists) and made 2.5 AAV. Basically a zero impact player at his age and was there just for the ride. You think Tavares is going to sign for less than that?

Vegas? Kessel was 34. Colorado? Cogliano/ Helm both 34. Tampa Bay? Maroon was 31 and 32. St. Louis? Steen was 34. Washington? Ovechkin was 31.

That's the list of most recent Cup winners and the team's oldest forward.

Tavares going to be signed from 34-40 is going to break that trend? Doubt it.
- Rare_Jewel

Bud what are talking about? You keep switching around on me here. Why are we now saying it’s a lock JT is signing a 7 year deal? Book it - a 7 year deal or bust! What if he signs 3 years? Will he be Clitterbuck bad? Chris Tierney bad? Nope. He will put up 55-60pts in my opinion over those 3 years. If he takes a discount (we both have zero clue if he would or not) he could very well be a great signing…you speak matter of fact about stuff you are fan guessing at.

Also, aside from Ovi - not one of those players is in Tavares level man. He is arguably a HoF player. None of those other guys are close.

Since you focused on Okposo, ok…
22, 28, 45 - pts Okposo put up leading up to last season.

65, 80, 76 - guess who’s totals those are? Hint: It’s John Tavares.

You will keep moving your posts here and deflect so I’m out my man! Enjoy.

You edited your post while I was responding - so I’ll just say: Wrong to your add on. I quickly saw Clutterbuck in there, laughed and moved on.

Bud what are talking about? You keep switching around on me here.
- Big23Questions

You're clearly confused. Let's make this simple.

I'd be interested to see the evidence that would make that an actual fact…
- Big23Questions

But none of that evidence that it factually means the Leafs chance will decrease.
- Big23Questions

Remember when you said this and then pretended like I didn't give you two lists of evidence? The first being the Leafs suck at signing effective older players and the second being recent Cup winners oldest players don't fit the mold of what you think Tavares is / will be at 34-40 years old.

So let's try one more time.

Oldest forwards on the last the 7 Cup winners...

Okposo - age 34 - 2 playoff points. Non-factor 4th liner on a cheap contract.
Kessel - age 34 - 4 playoff points. Non-factor, basically got benched.
Cogliano / Helm age 34 - 6 points, 5 points. Both cheap bottom-six players.
Maroon - age 31 / 32 - 6 points, 4 points. Bottom-six player, cheap contract.
Steen - age 34 - 5 points. Bottom-six PKer, shutdown player.
Ovechkin - age 31 - 27 points. Elite generational talent who hasn't won again at 32+.

And where does Tavares sit at 34-40?

He's not an effective bottom-six player, can't play defense. He's not an elite generational talent like Ovechkin, nor is he at his peak age anymore either. Does he get benched like Kessel did? Does he become a non-factor player just for the ride like Okposo? How exactly does Tavares help this team win a Cup at 35-40 if he's not scoring and obviously can't play a bottom-six role either?

The only way he helps is if he plays for basically free (which we agree he won't) or he's no longer on the team, which is what the Leafs should do after his contract runs out.

You're clearly confused. Let's make this simple.



Remember when you said this and then pretended like I didn't give you two lists of evidence? The first being the Leafs suck at signing effective older players and the second being recent Cup winners oldest players don't fit the mold of what you think Tavares is / will be at 34-40 years old.

So let's try one more time.

Oldest forwards on the last the 7 Cup winners...

Okposo - age 34 - 2 playoff points. Non-factor 4th liner on a cheap contract.
Kessel - age 34 - 4 playoff points. Non-factor, basically got benched.
Cogliano / Helm age 34 - 6 points, 5 points. Both cheap bottom-six players.
Maroon - age 31 / 32 - 6 points, 4 points. Bottom-six player, cheap contract.
Steen - age 34 - 5 points. Bottom-six PKer, shutdown player.
Ovechkin - age 31 - 27 points. Elite generational talent who hasn't won again at 32+.

And where does Tavares sit at 34-40?

He's not an effective bottom-six player, can't play defense. He's not an elite generational talent like Ovechkin, nor is he at his peak age anymore either. Does he get benched like Kessel did? Does he become a non-factor player just for the ride. How exactly does Tavares help this team win a Cup at 35-40 if he's not scoring and obviously can't play a bottom-six role either?

The only way he helps is if he plays for basically free (which you said he won't) or he's no longer on the team, which is what the Leafs should do after his contract runs out.
- Rare_Jewel

STILL no actual proof that the Leafs should they hypothetically sign JT will regress and lower their chances of a Cup…just to get through to you I will use an exaggerated example to illustrate that every scenario is different and you (and I) have ZERO clue what may or may not happen in the future:

Leafs resign JT to 3 years at 3M per. Then they end up letting Marner go and McDavid signs in Toronto. Woll developed into the next coming of Roy. You saying the Leafsvare a worse team with a worse chance of winning a Cup?

My point is and has been this entire time with you - you state things that may or may not happen like they are facts. Listing teams that signed old players and didn’t win a Cup is such a dumb argument - almost as dumb as the example I gave.

You have no idea what would or wouldn’t happen. You are guessing. I’m guessing. It’s opinions buddy. Just opinions. At no point did you provide me FACTUALLY that in this made up scenario of JT signing for 3 years means the Leafs Cups chances go away. Let it go man

You're clearly confused. Let's make this simple.





Remember when you said this and then pretended like I didn't give you two lists of evidence? The first being the Leafs suck at signing effective older players and the second being recent Cup winners oldest players don't fit the mold of what you think Tavares is / will be at 34-40 years old.

So let's try one more time.

Oldest forwards on the last the 7 Cup winners...

Okposo - age 34 - 2 playoff points. Non-factor 4th liner on a cheap contract.
Kessel - age 34 - 4 playoff points. Non-factor, basically got benched.
Cogliano / Helm age 34 - 6 points, 5 points. Both cheap bottom-six players.
Maroon - age 31 / 32 - 6 points, 4 points. Bottom-six player, cheap contract.
Steen - age 34 - 5 points. Bottom-six PKer, shutdown player.
Ovechkin - age 31 - 27 points. Elite generational talent who hasn't won again at 32+.

And where does Tavares sit at 34-40?

He's not an effective bottom-six player, can't play defense. He's not an elite generational talent like Ovechkin, nor is he at his peak age anymore either. Does he get benched like Kessel did? Does he become a non-factor player just for the ride like Okposo? How exactly does Tavares help this team win a Cup at 35-40 if he's not scoring and obviously can't play a bottom-six role either?

The only way he helps is if he plays for basically free (which we agree he won't) or he's no longer on the team, which is what the Leafs should do after his contract runs out.
- Rare_Jewel

I’ve bolded the key part of your post…so you agree that signing Old JT almost guarantees a Cup then! Cause those players you are chirping were Factually on the winners roster correct?

I agree man - goodnight!

How about neither of you guys is entirely wrong.

Tavares is better than a league minimum player

AND

Tavares' value is declining and it's very unlikely he can help this team win a Cup

How about neither of you guys is entirely wrong.

Tavares is better than a league minimum player

AND

Tavares' value is declining and it's very unlikely he can help this team win a Cup
- GalacticStone

Tavares is fine, 1 more year at his 11 mil cap and then he can sign for something more in line with a 50-60 point player. when he signed the deal, most said the back half he wouldnt be worth it.. and hes not worth 11... but he has outproduced my expectation of 2018

almost every big moment from this leafs team over the last 7 years, Tavares has been involved or on the ice for it. the JT discourse has gone off the deep end. people are talking like he is 41 year old Joe thornton putting up 20 points

It’s always been Matthews team.

Happy he’s the captain now though. Honestly he should’ve been captain 5 years ago if wasn’t for that one mooning.
- bryant

Meh, glad he wasnt captain 5 years ago, it would have been too much for him at that time

There's plenty of evidence, how many over the hill Leafs acquisitions do you need to believe it?

Giordano, Klingberg, Spezza, Thornton, Marleau, Nolan, Francis, Wesley, Leech, Housley, Corson, Marchment...how many do you need?

Tavares, at his best and at his most overpaid, did not do enough to get the job done for the Leafs. Tavares at 34-40 will not be better than what we just had for the last 6 years. Unless he's playing for league minimum (hint: he won't) he's not going to be worth his next contract just like he wasn't worth his last one. He's slow, he sucks on defense and will not age well.
- Rare_Jewel

Umm Tavares scored 65pts last year.
Not over the hill just yet and newsflash, we all knew, much like EVERY single long FA contract, that the tail end of his 7 year deal was going to be an overpayments. But we were all hoping for some cup runs in between to soften the blow, but the leafs were first round drops outs.

....well except when JT scored the winning goal to push them through to the 2nd round.

Umm Tavares scored 65pts last year.
Not over the hill just yet and newsflash, we all knew, much like EVERY single long FA contract, that the tail end of his 7 year deal was going to be an overpayments. But we were all hoping for some cup runs in between to soften the blow, but the leafs were first round drops outs.

....well except when JT scored the winning goal to push them through to the 2nd round.
- Fakepartofme

and that was a great 2nd round!

Ron Jeremy will lead them to greatness...he is a true warrior.

and that was a great 2nd round!

Ron Jeremy will lead them to greatness...he is a true warrior.
- Symba007

It was the best second round the leafs have had in decades!!!

Not happening. In fact, the chances are better now that he signs an extension.
- mikeinbuffalo

Interesting. Can you expand on this and skip a prospect or three?

😂

Tavares is fine, 1 more year at his 11 mil cap and then he can sign for something more in line with a 50-60 point player. when he signed the deal, most said the back half he wouldnt be worth it.. and hes not worth 11... but he has outproduced my expectation of 2018

almost every big moment from this leafs team over the last 7 years, Tavares has been involved or on the ice for it. the JT discourse has gone off the deep end. people are talking like he is 41 year old Joe thornton putting up 20 points

- senstroll

I think any team, Leafs included, would want a guy like Tavares to shore up their middle/bottom six with a solid veteran player who should still have some gas left in the tank - if the price is right. Rare Jewel thinks he's a league minimum player, but JT and his agent are going to expect top-six money for middle/bottom six production. The truth is somewhere in the middle between Jewel's lowball valuation and JT's agent who will still want several million per.

Thing is, somebody is going to overpay for JT on his next contract. Whether it's the Leafs or not remains to be seen, but it's going to be an overpay.

In some ways, it's similar to the Stamkos situation. Stamkos might earn that $8m the first season or two if he stays healthy, but the outlook on that contract isn't good. I like Stamkos and hated to see him leave the Lightning, but Briesbois did the right thing for the team by not backing up the bank truck.

If JT wants Stamkos money (or close to it), then I'd trade him or let him walk.

I think any team, Leafs included, would want a guy like Tavares to shore up their middle/bottom six with a solid veteran player who should still have some gas left in the tank - if the price is right. Rare Jewel thinks he's a league minimum player, but JT and his agent are going to expect top-six money for middle/bottom six production. The truth is somewhere in the middle between Jewel's lowball valuation and JT's agent who will still want several million per.

Thing is, somebody is going to overpay for JT on his next contract. Whether it's the Leafs or not remains to be seen, but it's going to be an overpay.

In some ways, it's similar to the Stamkos situation. Stamkos might earn that $8m the first season or two if he stays healthy, but the outlook on that contract isn't good. I like Stamkos and hated to see him leave the Lightning, but Briesbois did the right thing for the team by not backing up the bank truck.

If JT wants Stamkos money (or close to it), then I'd trade him or let him walk.
- GalacticStone

why would JT want or expect Stamkos money?

But none of that evidence that it factually means the Leafs chance will decrease. That’s your opinion…I wasn’t taking about whether Leafs have signed older players in the past. That wasn’t the discussion point man.

League minimum? Bud you’re out to lunch eh. You are way too emotional over this - cause in no way is JT a league minimum player.

You say things like: “he will not be worth his next contract…” - how do you know? (Hint: you don’t).

Again, all opinions - but I think he would crush it as a 3C who’s solid face offs, can add some offence, and play on a PP.

80GP
29G
36A

A league minimum player? You think he will go from 65pts to 15-20 pts (worthy of a league min) next 3 years if he signs fit 3 more with Leafs? That’s an odd take man….he's not a Cal Clutterbuck at 36 throwing up 19pts
- Big23Questions

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Probably easier to talk to a wall than this guy.
Leaf fans are delusional

Tavares sucks balls at playing defense (aka 3rd line role) and has always been a below average skater. The odds of him succeeding in a 3rd line role are laughable. If he's not scoring, he's useless and as he ages, his scoring is declining.

Yes, old players need to be league minimum players because if they suck, as they usually do because they're older, you can dispose of them easily and replace them. Experience is valuable but only if it's cheap and useful. Unlike Tavares, guys like Clutterbuck are built to play bottom-six minutes. Tavares is not made to play in the bottom six and is getting too old to succeed in the top-six.

Okposo was the oldest forward on the Panthers last year at 35. He played 6 games and 17 playoff games (0 goals 2 assists) and made 2.5 AAV. Basically a zero impact player at his age and was there just for the ride. You think Tavares is going to sign for less than that? You obviously don't but you believe he can score 29 goals as a 3rd line center. Yeah, I got a bridge to sell you.

Vegas? Kessel was 34. Colorado? Cogliano / Helm both 34. Tampa Bay x 2? Maroon was 31 and 32. St. Louis? Steen was 34. Washington? Ovechkin was 31.

That's the list of most recent Cup winners and the team's oldest forward.

Tavares will be 34 this season and be 35-40 on his future seasons but is going to break that trend playing in a role he's not built to succeed in? Doubt it. If he can't get it done this year, show him the door and never bring him back.
- Rare_Jewel

You have better odds drawing water from a rock.
Nowadays people just don’t have high IQ.

I think any team, Leafs included, would want a guy like Tavares to shore up their middle/bottom six with a solid veteran player who should still have some gas left in the tank - if the price is right. Rare Jewel thinks he's a league minimum player, but JT and his agent are going to expect top-six money for middle/bottom six production. The truth is somewhere in the middle between Jewel's lowball valuation and JT's agent who will still want several million per.

Thing is, somebody is going to overpay for JT on his next contract. Whether it's the Leafs or not remains to be seen, but it's going to be an overpay.

In some ways, it's similar to the Stamkos situation. Stamkos might earn that $8m the first season or two if he stays healthy, but the outlook on that contract isn't good. I like Stamkos and hated to see him leave the Lightning, but Briesbois did the right thing for the team by not backing up the bank truck.

If JT wants Stamkos money (or close to it), then I'd trade him or let him walk.
- GalacticStone

I really doubt JT wants or gets 8mil
hes not producing as much as Stamkos has been.

I think if both sides are interested in another contract, JT may land somewhere like Tanev

https://x.com/FriedgeHNIC...tatus/1823356215209967767

St. Louis saying (frank) you to Edmonton.

why would JT want or expect Stamkos money?
- drexel

Well, probably not $8m per, but he's currently making $11m and I doubt he'll take a 50%+ pay cut.

I'd be OK giving him Tanev money, but I'd more happy if he took $4 to $6m on less term.

Don't be shocked if another team with cap and low taxes offers to overpay like a mofo. Then we'll see how much he really loves the team.

https://x.com/FriedgeHNIC...tatus/1823356215209967767

St. Louis saying (frank) you to Edmonton.
- GreatGigInTheSky

Finally, some offer sheets and a GM with the balls to use them.

omg the C omfg omfg the C

Save the date Folks!

https://x.com/fordnation/...tatus/1823356104690045342

Tavares might be the most disrespected star we've ever had.

Only an absolute fool could think re-signing him to a low AAV deal would be a bad thing.

We have offer sheets!