Let them have their day.
Anyway, the train wreck in Edmonton is far more interesting.
- Marwood

Leafs usually have rail issues in late April

Honestly I care that a player is great throughout the playoffs - and we have yet to see that from _any_ of them. But I firmly believe that games 1-4 matter too. Playing like garbage and then trying to come back and win it in games 5-7 is some serious Ricky Steamboat action. We don't need that, either.

The reason I like looking at whether a game was clinching or not is that not all game 5s are created equal. Games 6 & 7 are, by definition, a game where a team can be eliminated.

To the point I think you're making, though, when it comes to rising to the occasion - which is that "in the moment" thing Marner has definitely left was wanting more, but unfortunately so have our other core players. But Marner has tragically bad games 6&7 stats.

Now I'm looking at their careers as a Leaf, not just from 2019, but:

Marner

Game 1: 9GP, 4G / 5A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 3 PPA
Game 2: 9GP, 4G / 7A; 0 GWG 1 PPG 5 PPA
Game 3: 9GP, 0G / 9A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 3 PPA
Game 4: 9GP, 2G / 10A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 4 PPA
Game 5: 9GP, 0G / 5A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 1 PPA
Game 6: 7GP, 1G / 1A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA
Game 7: 5GP, 0G / 2A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA


Matthews

Game 1: 9GP, 2G / 4A; 0 GWG 1 PPG 1 PPA
Game 2: 9GP, 3G / 10A; 3 GWG 0 PPG 5 PPA
Game 3: 9GP, 4G / 3A; 1 GWG 1 PPG 2 PPA
Game 4: 9GP, 6G / 3A; 1 GWG 3 PPG 1 PPA
Game 5: 8GP, 4G / 2A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA
Game 6: 6GP, 4G / 0A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA
Game 7: 5GP, 0G / 3A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA


Nylander

Game 1: 8GP, 3G / 0A; 0 GWG 1 PPG 0 PPA
Game 2: 8GP, 2G / 4A; 1 GWG 1 PPG 0 PPA
Game 3: 8GP, 3G / 3A; 0 GWG 1 PPG 0 PPA
Game 4: 9GP, 5G / 6A; 1 GWG 2 PPG 2 PPA
Game 5: 9GP, 2G / 5A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 1 PPA
Game 6: 7GP, 3G / 3A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA
Game 7: 5GP, 2G / 2A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 1 PPA

Tavares

Game 1: 7GP, 1G / 3A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 2 PPA
Game 2: 6GP, 5G / 0A; 0 GWG 2 PPG 0 PPA
Game 3: 6GP, 0G / 1A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 1 PPA
Game 4: 6GP, 1G / 3A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 1 PPA
Game 5: 6GP, 1G / 5A; 0 GWG 1 PPG 0 PPA
Game 6: 4GP, 3G / 0A; 1 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA
Game 7: 3GP, 1G / 0A; 0 GWG 0 PPG 0 PPA

In Game 7, if it's not Nylander, the team sucks. What is really telling about the team is that in games 5-7 the power play goes to poop. If you use that same metric (that you'd want to dismiss, but I think it's a crucial metric for a player and a team) of clinching games:

The Leafs are 24/123 on the PP in normal games (19.5%), and 4/43 (9.3%) in series clinching games. Our opposition, for the record is 33/124 (26.6%) and 10/43 (23.3%) in those same games.

Those stats can't be laid solely at the feet of Marner as much as many want to do so.

For the record I've said all along that I'm not opposed to moving on from Marner or Nylander - as long as the trade brings in a piece we need. Cap flexibility with no clear plan on what to do with the cap room is pointless and makes us worse. But both are excellent players who have been maligned unfairly at times for much of their time here.
- Monkeypunk

Sure and one was paid 10.9M to underperform and the other 6.9M to underperform but (to a lesser degree, clearly in game 7's for sure) when the chips are down.

If players want the big fat stacks they need to show in the big games/moments. That goes for all of them but the more they make the higher the expectations should be on the player.

All have failed, some harder than others.

Leafs usually have rail issues in late April
- Symba007

As opposed to a tee time in early April like the Habs?

As opposed to a tee time in early April like the Habs?
- Cush29

They're 2 years away from being 4 years away. To be fair they help me keep my sanity. When our core 4 exit first round every year I take solice in seeing the other side of the coin where the team I cheer for could be led by slapstickoffsky caufield and Suzuki ( MCU version of multiverse JVR Bozak and Kessel) and feeling doomed before the season even begins. (frank) the torch boys, pass Matthews a beer.

I truly wish this would play out in the dressing room.

Fish (Marner): But the Appledorns (Panthers) are super tough

Shoresy (Matthews): Introduce yourselves

Jim 1: Jim

Jim 2: Jim

Jim 3: My names also Jim

Shoresy (Matthews): Problem solved

Fish (Marner): Thanks Boys

Sure and one was paid 10.9M to underperform and the other 6.9M to underperform but (to a lesser degree, clearly in game 7's for sure) when the chips are down.

If players want the big fat stacks they need to show in the big games/moments. That goes for all of them but the more they make the higher the expectations should be on the player.

All have failed, some harder than others.
- Cush29

I mean in 2016-17 and 2017-18 Marner played with Bozak and Van Riemsdyk - and had 61 and 69 points. In 2018-19, the final year of his ELC, he played with Hyman and Tavares and had 94 points - which was 11th in the league and best on the team.

Nylander, in 16-17, played with Hyman and Matthews predominantly (over 500 minutes) and with Komarov and Kadri for 300 minutes of limited success. He had 61 points. In 2017-18, the final year of his ELC, he had 61 points again, playing almost exclusively with Matthews and Hyman.

When they were cashing in off of their ELCs, Nylander had been given better opportunities than Marner to succeed and produce points. Again, Nylander just had a great season, but it shouldn't change our recollection of the player he was when he signed his $7m deal.

In the shortened 19-20 Marner was 18th in league scoring despite missing 11 games. In the COVID season, 20-21, he was 4th in the league. In 21-22, he was 10th. In 22-23 he was 13th. This is a guy who is a two-time first team all-star at RW.

He's overpaid but not by more than $1.5m at the most.

I mean in 2016-17 and 2017-18 Marner played with Bozak and Van Riemsdyk - and had 61 and 69 points. In 2018-19, the final year of his ELC, he played with Hyman and Tavares and had 94 points - which was 11th in the league and best on the team.

Nylander, in 16-17, played with Hyman and Matthews predominantly (over 500 minutes) and with Komarov and Kadri for 300 minutes of limited success. He had 61 points. In 2017-18, the final year of his ELC, he had 61 points again, playing almost exclusively with Matthews and Hyman.

When they were cashing in off of their ELCs, Nylander had been given better opportunities than Marner to succeed and produce points. Again, Nylander just had a great season, but it shouldn't change our recollection of the player he was when he signed his $7m deal.

In the shortened 19-20 Marner was 18th in league scoring despite missing 11 games. In the COVID season, 20-21, he was 4th in the league. In 21-22, he was 10th. In 22-23 he was 13th. This is a guy who is a two-time first team all-star at RW.

He's overpaid but not by more than $1.5m at the most.
- Monkeypunk

Very solid post I must say.

In regards to Marner I've never strongly objected the notion of a trade, I just always, in the end, circled back to knowing what exactly the deal would be. It's one thing to want the cap space, it's another thing to spend it wisely. It's just hard for me to believe we're a better team without Marner, despite the poor showing a few times in the playoffs.

They're 2 years away from being 4 years away. To be fair they help me keep my sanity. When our core 4 exit first round every year I take solice in seeing the other side of the coin where the team I cheer for could be led by slapstickoffsky caufield and Suzuki ( MCU version of multiverse JVR Bozak and Kessel) and feeling doomed before the season even begins. (frank) the torch boys, pass Matthews a beer.
- systemtool

Except none of them are as good as Kessel.

Leafs usually have rail issues in late April
- Symba007

no man, it's always

As opposed to a tee time in early April like the Habs?
- Cush29

I truly wish this would play out in the dressing room.

Fish (Marner): But the Appledorns (Panthers) are super tough

Shoresy (Matthews): Introduce yourselves

Jim 1: Jim

Jim 2: Jim

Jim 3: My names also Jim

Shoresy (Matthews): Problem solved

Fish (Marner): Thanks Boys
- systemtool

The one on the right is Nolan, Ted's son.

I mean in 2016-17 and 2017-18 Marner played with Bozak and Van Riemsdyk - and had 61 and 69 points. In 2018-19, the final year of his ELC, he played with Hyman and Tavares and had 94 points - which was 11th in the league and best on the team.

Nylander, in 16-17, played with Hyman and Matthews predominantly (over 500 minutes) and with Komarov and Kadri for 300 minutes of limited success. He had 61 points. In 2017-18, the final year of his ELC, he had 61 points again, playing almost exclusively with Matthews and Hyman.

When they were cashing in off of their ELCs, Nylander had been given better opportunities than Marner to succeed and produce points. Again, Nylander just had a great season, but it shouldn't change our recollection of the player he was when he signed his $7m deal.

In the shortened 19-20 Marner was 18th in league scoring despite missing 11 games. In the COVID season, 20-21, he was 4th in the league. In 21-22, he was 10th. In 22-23 he was 13th. This is a guy who is a two-time first team all-star at RW.

He's overpaid but not by more than $1.5m at the most.
- Monkeypunk

Fancy regular season stats from a fancy regular season darling but not the playoff performer he is paid to be IMO.

I also think he was overpaid by more than 1.5 M (more like 2.5) and I feel like if you compare his salary to the elite wingers that are comparable and you will find most (all likely) were paid less and produced more come post season.

End of they day Matthews, Marner and Willy all greatly benefitted from JT being signed at 11M because it bumped them all up to more $ than any of them probably should have been paid on their 1st deals after the ELC's - even the new captain but it is what it is and they are where they are now.

They're 2 years away from being 4 years away. To be fair they help me keep my sanity. When our core 4 exit first round every year I take solice in seeing the other side of the coin where the team I cheer for could be led by slapstickoffsky caufield and Suzuki ( MCU version of multiverse JVR Bozak and Kessel) and feeling doomed before the season even begins. (frank) the torch boys, pass Matthews a beer.
- systemtool

This made me smile, your 2nd post about Shorsey and the Jim's made me laugh out loud! lol

This made me smile, your 2nd post about Shorsey and the Jim's made me laugh out loud! lol
- Cush29

Weird. I thought his post was dumb and not funny.

To each his own I guess.

This made me smile, your 2nd post about Shorsey and the Jim's made me laugh out loud! lol
- Cush29

👊💙

Weird. I thought his post was dumb and not funny.

To each his own I guess.
- Scabeh

Sucks to be you mate. I think your post was completely useless, irrelevant, attention seeking and petulant. The wisdom of a fool won't set me free but I'll still quote you anyways. "to each his own I guess" (usually when someone makes that statement, they're basically admitting they should keep their own opinion to themselves)

- BINGO!

Tra La La!

Sucks to be you mate. I think your post was completely useless, irrelevant, attention seeking and petulant. The wisdom of a fool won't set me free but I'll still quote you anyways. "to each his own I guess"
- systemtool

You're on fire today.

I mean in 2016-17 and 2017-18 Marner played with Bozak and Van Riemsdyk - and had 61 and 69 points. In 2018-19, the final year of his ELC, he played with Hyman and Tavares and had 94 points - which was 11th in the league and best on the team.

Nylander, in 16-17, played with Hyman and Matthews predominantly (over 500 minutes) and with Komarov and Kadri for 300 minutes of limited success. He had 61 points. In 2017-18, the final year of his ELC, he had 61 points again, playing almost exclusively with Matthews and Hyman.

When they were cashing in off of their ELCs, Nylander had been given better opportunities than Marner to succeed and produce points. Again, Nylander just had a great season, but it shouldn't change our recollection of the player he was when he signed his $7m deal.

In the shortened 19-20 Marner was 18th in league scoring despite missing 11 games. In the COVID season, 20-21, he was 4th in the league. In 21-22, he was 10th. In 22-23 he was 13th. This is a guy who is a two-time first team all-star at RW.

He's overpaid but not by more than $1.5m at the most.
- Monkeypunk

That summer was a good summer around here. Some people wanted to keep JVR because "who would replace his 30 goals?!"

You're on fire today.
- Scabeh

I'd pass you a beer if a could. The again I'm having Landshark Lager and I'm not sure most would care for it. It's a nice simple style lager.

I truly wish this would play out in the dressing room.

Fish (Marner): But the Appledorns (Panthers) are super tough

Shoresy (Matthews): Introduce yourselves

Jim 1: Jim

Jim 2: Jim

Jim 3: My names also Jim

Shoresy (Matthews): Problem solved

Fish (Marner): Thanks Boys
- systemtool

https://youtu.be/lRIGQJMqP2A?si=LN_wumpO23b64OXy


if anyone wants to see a clip of it

I'd pass you a beer if a could. The again I'm having Landshark Lager and I'm not sure most would care for it. It's a nice simple style lager.
- systemtool

Yeah, we are FAR too sophisticated around here
🧐

In Tusker we trust 🍺 💙

Fancy regular season stats from a fancy regular season darling but not the playoff performer he is paid to be IMO.

I also think he was overpaid by more than 1.5 M (more like 2.5) and I feel like if you compare his salary to the elite wingers that are comparable and you will find most (all likely) were paid less and produced more come post season.

End of they day Matthews, Marner and Willy all greatly benefitted from JT being signed at 11M because it bumped them all up to more $ than any of them probably should have been paid on their 1st deals after the ELC's - even the new captain but it is what it is and they are where they are now.
- Cush29

You want a playoff performer but guys are paid for regular season statistics, too. That's just a fact of the NHL contracts - when I think of Marner, though, I tend to - and I think many of us do - consider Aho and Rantanen as primary comparables. Both were pass first kind of players when they signed their deals - Rantanen probably compares more to Nylander and Pastrnak now since he's become more of a shooter. That said . . .

Rantanen is entering the final year of his 6 x $9.25m deal.

Over the five years, in league scoring, he was 130th (missed about 28 games but had 41pts in 42 games), 7th, 15th, 8th and 8th (By contrast over the same period Marner was 18th, 4th, 10th, 13th and 23rd (but did miss 13 games).

Aho, another comparable often used for Marner, just finished a 5 year, $8.5m deal - and just extended @ 8x $9.75m.

He has been 20th, 17th, 30th, 63rd and 18th in league scoring.

Aho does have 13 points in 19 games 5-7 in the playoffs, but it should be noted that he has been terrible against the Atlantic with Carolina losing 4-0 and 4-1 to Boston, 4-1 to Tampa and 4-0 to Florida - with one 4-3 series win against Boston. In the 5 series culminating games against the Atlantic he has 1 assist.

In a head-to-head comparison, Marner gets the nod over Aho. Contractually I think Marner compares more appropriately to Rantanen than Aho and the $1.7m difference in their contracts is probably inflated, I'd agree, due to the Tavares effect.

You want a playoff performer but guys are paid for regular season statistics, too. That's just a fact of the NHL contracts - when I think of Marner, though, I tend to - and I think many of us do - consider Aho and Rantanen as primary comparables. Both were pass first kind of players when they signed their deals - Rantanen probably compares more to Nylander and Pastrnak now since he's become more of a shooter. That said . . .

Rantanen is entering the final year of his 6 x $9.25m deal.

Over the five years, in league scoring, he was 130th (missed about 28 games but had 41pts in 42 games), 7th, 15th, 8th and 8th (By contrast over the same period Marner was 18th, 4th, 10th, 13th and 23rd (but did miss 13 games).

Aho, another comparable often used for Marner, just finished a 5 year, $8.5m deal - and just extended @ 8x $9.75m.

He has been 20th, 17th, 30th, 63rd and 18th in league scoring.

Aho does have 13 points in 19 games 5-7 in the playoffs, but it should be noted that he has been terrible against the Atlantic with Carolina losing 4-0 and 4-1 to Boston, 4-1 to Tampa and 4-0 to Florida - with one 4-3 series win against Boston. In the 5 series culminating games against the Atlantic he has 1 assist.

In a head-to-head comparison, Marner gets the nod over Aho. Contractually I think Marner compares more appropriately to Rantanen than Aho and the $1.7m difference in their contracts is probably inflated, I'd agree, due to the Tavares effect.
- Monkeypunk

Now do Pasta