Well I was really emphasizing the movement, not the speed of it. He moved to the "middle of the roadway." That seems possibly excessive. Normally, cars will slow down, maybe move a little. But if the bike is on the shoulder/bike lane, should not need to move too far.

Also, if they were riding single file, would they both have been struck so severely, simultaneously? Its possible, but another bit of unlikelihood gets added in.
- PT21

This is the road in question:



There isn't a lot of room on the shoulder. Most motorists will move over a few feet at least for safety when coming upon bikers.

Dude was impaired, driving at a relative high rate of speed and had no visual on what was in the shoulder. Single file or not it doesn't matter... neither of them had a chance.

Also, if they were riding single file, would they both have been struck so severely, simultaneously? Its possible, but another bit of unlikelihood gets added in.
- PT21

Nope, it's very likely even when single file. I've seen it. Maybe on longer lines will the riders up front be spared from what the tail-end Charlie rider(s) has to endure. But for two it would have made little difference. Especially with an impaired and impatient driver, who probably never cared to slow down behind the other traffic. I'm going to venture to guess his reflexes were so slow that he probably never tried to brake until after the collective impact.

No one is suggesting it is anybody's fault except the drunkard.

It is however prudent, as a bicyclist, to go above and beyond the legal mandates to ensure safety. At that time of the night, I would wear reflectives, and would ride single file if I was cycling with another, and would be right by the side of the road. I would definitely not stray into the lanes.
- PT21

Agreed. Which is why I said I would myself never ever ride abreast with others (unless on a closed road), regardless of time and visibility conditions. I also wouldn't be riding in low light without a headlight and taillight. It's actually required where I live. I'm sure there are similar rules in most jurisdictions.

BTW I never suggested that you were trying to victim blame the brothers. I just think your point on their relative positioning to be entirely moot under the circumstances. Single file or abreast, they were close enough to each other to both lose their lives. Let's leave it at that.

JFC - really arguing over the definition of "swerving" on a day like this. Have some respect for the family and friends and let the police handle the matter. Sometimes this place becomes a cesspool.

This is the road in question:



There isn't a lot of room on the shoulder. Most motorists will move over a few feet at least for safety when coming upon bikers.

Dude was impaired, driving at a relative high rate of speed and had no visual on what was in the shoulder. Single file or not it doesn't matter... neither of them had a chance.
- Tomahawk

This picture is more what I had in mind re: shoulder.

If he is overtaking from the left, and those 2 were indeed on the shoulder, and single file, he would have had to veer past the SUV and into the shoulder to strike both.

I am surprised a guy in his 40s would lose this degree of control after just "5-6 beers."

In that light, I would really not be biking in those country roads with cars flying by at that hour.

Not reducing the guy's culpability in anyway. He is going to be charged with vehicular homicide, and justly so. Just trying to make sense of it all.

Agreed. Which is why I said I would myself never ever ride abreast with others (unless on a closed road), regardless of time and visibility conditions. I also wouldn't be riding in low light without a headlight and taillight. It's actually required where I live. I'm sure there are similar rules in most jurisdictions.

BTW I never suggested that you were trying to victim blame the brothers. I just think your point on their relative positioning to be entirely moot under the circumstances. Single file or abreast, they were close enough to each other to both lose their lives. Let's leave it at that.
- Bendecko

Yup

JFC - really arguing over the definition of "swerving" on a day like this. Have some respect for the family and friends and let the police handle the matter. Sometimes this place becomes a cesspool.
- Flyfly

I have no issue with respectfully discussing details over something like this. I wouldn't call it arguing. Maybe not for you, but this is how a lot of people cope with tragedies like this.

EDIT: Like PT says, we're just trying to make sense of it all when it really is a senseless act. Coping. Also taking lessons learned from it so that future lives may be saved if they are ever to face a similar situation.

JFC - really arguing over the definition of "swerving" on a day like this. Have some respect for the family and friends and let the police handle the matter. Sometimes this place becomes a cesspool.
- Flyfly

No one is arguing.

When faced with tragedy, some seek faith, some seek silence. For guys like me, it is comforting to understand the how. Sorry if I caused discomfort.

This is the road in question:



There isn't a lot of room on the shoulder. Most motorists will move over a few feet at least for safety when coming upon bikers.

Dude was impaired, driving at a relative high rate of speed and had no visual on what was in the shoulder. Single file or not it doesn't matter... neither of them had a chance.
- Tomahawk

Where would be this on the map?

Even before they said anything about the Gaudreau Brothers being possible victims, the early local news reports (CBS and ABC Philly) said it happened on Pennsville Auburn Road (CR551) at or near Stumpy Lane. That image looks nothing like what can be seen on the Google Street View for that intersection and stretch of road, unless it's been majorly reworked since April 2023.

Crushing. I can’t imagine… I thought of his parents first and then hoped he didn’t have a wife and children only to find out he did. It went from horrific to tragic. Unbelievable. I hate Gloucester Catholic as a Kingsway grad but when you grow older you realize what a quiet and relatively peaceful place most of South Jersey is. Could have been any of us enjoying a bike ride with our brother. Personally I do not and also tell my kids to never ride their bike on a highway or road. If it doesn’t have a sidewalk I’m not on it. My wife likes to tell me it belongs to the bikes but it never will. Not in America.

...and now for a two hour argument about the meaning of the word "swerve"
- Dkos

Well when you cant argue about the Flyers, Hockeybuzz has to argue about something lol

Aggressive driving is the number one reason why I dont cycle. I would love to ride a bike to get to places near by but I dont trust anyone on the road and incidents like this reinforce that distrust. Just takes one dummy who needs to get wherever they are going 30 seconds faster to end your life. Car hits you on a bike or while on foot you got no chance. People are way too careless with driving a vehicle. Drinking and driving is also getting out of hand. Time to take preventative measures to ensure dumb people dont make dumb choices like drinking and driving.

Where would be this on the map?

Even before they said anything about the Gaudreau Brothers being possible victims, the early local news reports (CBS and ABC Philly) said it happened on Pennsville Auburn Road (CR551) at or near Stumpy Lane. That image looks nothing like what can be seen on the Google Street View for that intersection and stretch of road, unless it's been majorly reworked since April 2023.
- Bendecko

Sorry didn't realize they had released a cross street.

I took a shot of a random spot on CR551 closer to town.

Been one of those days where I've been agitated all day. I guess this news was just too disturbing to wake up to. It's just a horrific tragedy and even though I didn't know the folks involved on a personal level it is gut wrenching. I can't even wrap my head around what the family and friends must be feeling. Thoughts and prayers to all. Oh, and can we PLEASE stop with the bickering for one friggin day on here? Thanks!

Bill Meltzer: RIP Gaudreau Brothers
- bmeltzer

Great piece Meltzy! Kudos!

Crushing. I can’t imagine… I thought of his parents first and then hoped he didn’t have a wife and children only to find out he did. It went from horrific to tragic. Unbelievable. I hate Gloucester Catholic as a Kingsway grad but when you grow older you realize what a quiet and relatively peaceful place most of South Jersey is. Could have been any of us enjoying a bike ride with our brother. Personally I do not and also tell my kids to never ride their bike on a highway or road. If it doesn’t have a sidewalk I’m not on it. My wife likes to tell me it belongs to the bikes but it never will. Not in America.
- Boyer83

I do know what you mean, but I would not be so pessimistic. AI enhanced navigation system would almost certainly have prevented something like this. We just need to wait a few years for it to weed out its errors.

There is a lot of money to be made there, and between American's love of freedom and money, the latter tends to win every time, so I am more hopeful than you.

Aggressive driving is the number one reason why I dont cycle. I would love to ride a bike to get to places near by but I dont trust anyone on the road and incidents like this reinforce that distrust. Just takes one dummy who needs to get wherever they are going 30 seconds faster to end your life. Car hits you on a bike or while on foot you got no chance. People are way too careless with driving a vehicle. Drinking and driving is also getting out of hand. Time to take preventative measures to ensure dumb people dont make dumb choices like drinking and driving.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

As Stephen Hawking once said, we need to eliminate aggression*, which is a completely vestigial, redundant trait in modern society and is clinging on like the appendix. Not happening any time soon that, but in the meantime I am more hopefully about AI tools curbing thenature of the ilk of that driver.

Btw, I would have thought you Canadians are much better in this sort of thing. Et tu? Hmm, hmmm.

A few weeks ago, just a few blocks from where I live: https://6abc.com/post/bar...s-conference-da/15092037/

*EDIT: He also said we cannot wait for evolution to do it for us. Evolution is too slow.

Just the worst of news, prayers to the Gaudreau family.

If Johnny Hockey had a better season, this past season, might it be possible, respectfully, would the league have voted him into the hall of fame? I don’t know if it’s the right time to play this game, but pretty good career.

Thanks Bill for the write up on Johnny G and his brother. What an awful, horrible tragedy. No excuse for drunk driving with Uber and all the other means of transportation. I can't imagine what their family is dealing with at this time. RIP Johnny and Matthew

This picture is more what I had in mind re: shoulder.

If he is overtaking from the left, and those 2 were indeed on the shoulder, and single file, he would have had to veer past the SUV and into the shoulder to strike both.

I am surprised a guy in his 40s would lose this degree of control after just "5-6 beers."

In that light, I would really not be biking in those country roads with cars flying by at that hour.

Not reducing the guy's culpability in anyway. He is going to be charged with vehicular homicide, and justly so. Just trying to make sense of it all.
- PT21

That's what he did. He attempted to pass the driver on the RIGHT that had moved over to allow room. On that road... Unbelievable.

"Higgins then attempted to pass the SUV on the right and struck the two pedal cyclists in the rear. As a result of the collision, the two pedal cyclists sustained fatal injuries."

That's what he did. He attempted to pass the driver on the RIGHT that had moved over to allow room. On that road... Unbelievable.

"Higgins then attempted to pass the SUV on the right and struck the two pedal cyclists in the rear. As a result of the collision, the two pedal cyclists sustained fatal injuries."
- atibus

Correction noted. In that case, of course he would veer to the right of the road. And apparently, there was no shoulder anyway.

I still think however that riding bikes on roads like that is unwise, at that hour esp.

An unspeakable, gut churning tragedy.

Been one of those days where I've been agitated all day. I guess this news was just too disturbing to wake up to. It's just a horrific tragedy and even though I didn't know the folks involved on a personal level it is gut wrenching. I can't even wrap my head around what the family and friends must be feeling. Thoughts and prayers to all. Oh, and can we PLEASE stop with the bickering for one friggin day on here? Thanks!
- Phillywhiteout

https://nypost.com/2024/0...y-singer-would-hate-them/

Correction noted. In that case, of course he would veer to the right of the road. And apparently, there was no shoulder anyway.

I still think however that riding bikes on roads like that is unwise, at that hour esp.

An unspeakable, gut churning tragedy.
- PT21

Of course he would veer to the right of the road? How about of course he would stay in the lane and off the side of the road and remain patient to get where he was going. That's what a sensible unimpaired driver would do of course.

Your tone on this scenario of misery is correct.
One reason I'm agnostic.
I don't have to hate a creator with this need for cruelty.