Maatta traded to Utah for a 3rd round pick...3M for this year.

2 things.

1. Liljegren is worth more than that

2. I wonder if DET is doing a flip here to trade for liljergen

Tough night for Habs
💙
- mr.sir

I literally fully agree with every single thing you post. Are you my alt?!?!?!

- drexel

Sorry bud, but his signing crippled this team. It forced the Leafs to overpay Matthews, Nylander and Marner. If he had taken, let's say, 9.5 AAV, maybe the Leafs would have had enough extra savings (1-1.5 for each core 4) to have kept a guy like Hyman.

And what did we get out of it? Zero MVPs. Zero awards of any kind. Zero Cups. One series win. That's it. One.

Tavares was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL and delivered absolutely zero value for that cap hit both in statistics and in results when it mattered most.

It's not entirely his fault because Leafs management should have known better but signing Tavares was a giant mistake that most people do not want to admit was a giant mistake because he's the hometown kid who is a really nice guy.

But facts are facts, signing Tavares was stupid and put this team further behind than it helped push them forward for 90% of his contract. This season is his last chance to change it and it doesn't look much different yet.

Sorry bud, but his signing crippled this team. It forced the Leafs to overpay Matthews, Nylander and Marner. If he had taken, let's say, 9.5 AAV, maybe the Leafs would have had enough extra savings (1-1.5 for each core 4) to have kept a guy like Hyman.

And what did we get out of it? Zero MVPs. Zero awards of any kind. Zero Cups. One series win. That's it. One.

Tavares was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL and delivered absolutely zero value for that cap hit both in statistics and in results when it mattered most.

It's not entirely his fault because Leafs management should have known better but signing Tavares was a giant mistake that most people do not want to admit was a giant mistake because he's the hometown kid who is a really nice guy.

But facts are facts, signing Tavares was stupid and put this team further behind than it helped push them forward for 90% of his contract. This season is his last chance to change it and it doesn't look much different yet.
- Rare_Jewel

the signing plus the fact that the cap went flat was the reason. if there was the gradual rise like normal, the leafs could have kept some others like Hyman

He only wants to retire a Leaf if he gets what he wants financially too. That's the part of the sentence he never mentions because it wouldn't be as powerful a PR line.

Notice how the last time he "wanted to be a Leaf" he became the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL?

If he ONLY wants to be a Leaf, then we can talk and he'll be happy with 800K.

But that's not happening, is it?
- Rare_Jewel

No, because thats foolish. Hes 34 not 38.
Tanev just signed a 6 year deal for $6m at ar 34, i could see Tre offering JT something similar. Tre likes his old vets.
Maybe a 5x$5m.

He's not been worth it at 11 million for the majority of his contract. He's not worth 9 or 7. He might not even be worth it at 5 million.

He does not play a defensive role well. He's on the wrong side of 35. His offensive game is likely to decline to the point where he won't be useful at either end of the rink.

He's not even a noted playoff performer like a Joe Pavelski so it's not like you can afford to have him on a bad contract and then pop off in the playoffs either.

He was given 7 years, at his peak prime, to get the job done. He didn't.

The Leafs are already going to have a bunch of old guys on the blueline. They don't need to go the route of the Pat Quinn days of Toronto Maple Retirement program.
- Rare_Jewel

What do you mean, "he didn't"?
He was a ppg player his first 3 years and is now average 0.80ppg since he signed (hes a ppg this short season).
We knew the last two years of the contract would be bad, but he had 65pts last season. Its not his fault the leafs and the young core choked away playoff games and series. Its not his fault dubas overpaid matthews and marner.
Its not his fault covid killed any chance of the cap going up as was expected year over year.
Just stop.

Offer him $2-3m x 2 years. If he does well after 2 years and wants to continue playing, then extend one more year at $1m.

If he turns it down, tell him good luck and offer him a front office job once he finishes up on some other team desperate to overpay.

The Lightning and Stamkos saga was painful, but overpaying a fading star for nostalgic reasons is rarely the smart move.
- GalacticStone

$8m for stamkos was too much....and its too much for jt.
$5m is probably what he signs if he stays

Marner will get $13m in Utah and JT will get $7m x 4 with Seattle or San Jose or some other cracked out GM.

The question is, how to utilize all that new cap space.
McDavid?
- GalacticStone

Shesterkin.

He's not been worth it at 11 million for the majority of his contract. He's not worth 9 or 7. He might not even be worth it at 5 million.

He does not play a defensive role well. He's on the wrong side of 35. His offensive game is likely to decline to the point where he won't be useful at either end of the rink.

He's not even a noted playoff performer like a Joe Pavelski so it's not like you can afford to have him on a bad contract and then pop off in the playoffs either.

He was given 7 years, at his peak prime, to get the job done. He didn't.

The Leafs are already going to have a bunch of old guys on the blueline. They don't need to go the route of the Pat Quinn days of Toronto Maple Retirement program.
- Rare_Jewel

He was full value for his contract when he first came to Toronto. Is he now? No. But we all knew that was coming.

He scored the OT goal that won NYI their first playoff round in a couple of decades, he scored the OT goal that won TOR it's first playoff round in almost two decades. He was knocked out in the first game of the playoffs against MTL. I don't buy the argument that he's not a playoff performer. How many cups has Little Joe won?

He didn't get the job done, but it wasn't all about him. It's a team sport. Depth, defence, and goaltending win Stanley Cups, not stars.

So Oli Maatta was dealt to Utah
so no Liljegren to Utah now ?

Sorry bud, but his signing crippled this team. It forced the Leafs to overpay Matthews, Nylander and Marner. If he had taken, let's say, 9.5 AAV, maybe the Leafs would have had enough extra savings (1-1.5 for each core 4) to have kept a guy like Hyman.

And what did we get out of it? Zero MVPs. Zero awards of any kind. Zero Cups. One series win. That's it. One.

Tavares was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL and delivered absolutely zero value for that cap hit both in statistics and in results when it mattered most.

It's not entirely his fault because Leafs management should have known better but signing Tavares was a giant mistake that most people do not want to admit was a giant mistake because he's the hometown kid who is a really nice guy.

But facts are facts, signing Tavares was stupid and put this team further behind than it helped push them forward for 90% of his contract. This season is his last chance to change it and it doesn't look much different yet.
- Rare_Jewel

I do not subscribe to these point of view.

These ARE NOT FACTS but your opinion.

Rare_Jewel = Unholy_Goalie

Rare_Jewel = Unholy_Goalie
- gravyface

Are we sure it's not Kyle Clutterbuck?

Sorry bud, but his signing crippled this team. It forced the Leafs to overpay Matthews, Nylander and Marner. If he had taken, let's say, 9.5 AAV, maybe the Leafs would have had enough extra savings (1-1.5 for each core 4) to have kept a guy like Hyman.

And what did we get out of it? Zero MVPs. Zero awards of any kind. Zero Cups. One series win. That's it. One.

Tavares was the 2nd highest paid player in the NHL and delivered absolutely zero value for that cap hit both in statistics and in results when it mattered most.

It's not entirely his fault because Leafs management should have known better but signing Tavares was a giant mistake that most people do not want to admit was a giant mistake because he's the hometown kid who is a really nice guy.

But facts are facts, signing Tavares was stupid and put this team further behind than it helped push them forward for 90% of his contract. This season is his last chance to change it and it doesn't look much different yet.
- Rare_Jewel

TL;DR: I would agree that Tavares probably created around a $13m expense against the cap, but unless the Leafs had a crystal ball, they wouldn't have landed the only player that would have improved their blueline considerably: Pietrangelo in 2020.
____

I think we all want to play what might have been - but it's never as easy in reality as it is in imagination. Trades that were made or Free Agents that were signed may simply have not happened other ways due to personal relationships or personal preferences (for instance while the rumours of Calgary not being willing to trade Tanev were considered false, the rumours of Calgary insisting that they "clearly win" any trade with Toronto were never discredited - and it's generally considered that when dealing with any Western Canadian team, the general disdain for Ontario and in particular, Toronto, generally comes with this stigma).

Now JT was signed in 2018 to an $11m x 7 deal and I think it's safe to say that this inflated the salary demands for both Marner and Matthews. I'd heard previously that Marner had been discussing an $8m x 8 deal and that Matthews had, similarly, been discussing a $10m x 8 deal. Now given how both of those deals shook out, I'm not sure if there was any validity to either rumour, but John Tavares' contract did create a new playing field. At a minimum I'd say that the contract cost us an extra million per year for both contracts.

Granted 2018 wasn't overly impressive for Free Agency. Perron going to St. Louis may have been the most impactful given that they won the cup and he was a notable part of the forward group for them (5th in scoring and tied with several others for the lead with 2 GWG). Another notable thing in 2018, just for fun - Brandon Hagel was unsigned to an ELC by the Sabres and Chicago scooped him up. If the Connor Bedard years result in success in Chicago, people will possibly look at the Hagel trade as a contributor to the team's success (or a wasted opportunity!).

2019 saw mostly mistakes in Free Agency - Myers, Gardiner, Stralman, Duchene - but there were good deals like Pavelski and Panarin in there as well. Panarin's deal was probably paved by Tavares' earlier deal.

2020 did present opportunities - like Pietrangelo @ $8.8m - but would that number have needed to be higher here? The Leafs did sign Brodie that year for $5m while Tanev went to Calgary for $4.5m. By 2020 we were looking for a reliable goalie as well as D but there weren't really any goalies available - Holtby went to Vancouver for $4.3m in a predictably awful scenario and was bought out after one year. There weren't saving graces on the goalie front to be had and we were, of course, cash strapped so here is where an argument can be made that JT caused a problem. Part of the problem with this argument, again, is that when JT was signed the cap had just risen $4.5m after having risen consistently by $2m or more year over year. Predicting that the cap growth would slow to $4m in total from 2018 until 2024 was not on anyone's bingo card. Had cap growth continued as per expectations and not been hampered by escrow payments and impending COVID, the Leafs should have expected to have $10m in new cap money to spend - that never came.

2021 saw Dougie Hamilton go to the Devils for $9m. It's an amount that Carolina might have been willing to pay if Hamilton were truly a #1. I like him but I think he has the sort of milquetoast competitive spirit that is similar to Tavares - he doesn't hate losing enough and isn't a fierce competitor; he's just pretty good at hockeying. Deals that I did like in 2021 were Larsson for $4m, Forbort for $3m and I thought Danault for $5.5m was high but given his versatility, wasn't that awful.

But let's step back here for a moment recognize that in order to be maximizing the cap space available by 2021 required the Leafs in 2018 to know that Pietrangelo would be allowed to walk by St. Louis in 2020 since in 3 years he was actually the only piece that would have moved the needle for the Leafs' real needs. This does not excuse Dubas for his awful track record with goalies - signing Mrazek for $3.8m or barrel scraping to find anyone of merit. Getting a great year out of Samsonov was awesome, but his fall from grace was perhaps as predictable as Campbell's given that neither had been able to sustain any level of consistency previously.

I mean ultimately in the 6 years since we signed John Tavares - if you argue that perhaps that created upwards of a $13m expense that hurt us against the cap and stopped us from building better depth around the core group, I wouldn't argue. But if the idea is that we should have sought other star players or a #1 Defenseman - the only one who appeared in 6 years was Pietrangelo. So the misstep in signing Tavares was that they didn't have a crystal ball.

TL;DR: I would agree that Tavares probably created around a $13m expense against the cap, but unless the Leafs had a crystal ball, they wouldn't have landed the only player that would have improved their blueline considerably: Pietrangelo in 2020.

- Monkeypunk

I wanted Pietrangelo so bad when he became available

I wanted Pietrangelo so bad when he became available
- TheMussel

Same.
Problem was he was never going to sign in Toronto.
Specially at 8.8 per.

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14
- Atomic Wedgie

Found mine:


Jul 1 @ 1:33 PM ET

I am currently at my club, taking my parents to lunch for their 58th anniversary. So it’s a little embarrassing for me to have such a large erection in the dining area

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14
- Atomic Wedgie

lol. “Build a wall! Build a wall!”

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14
- Atomic Wedgie

lol there is some gold in there & lots of UG hate and chirps also.

I guess UG said it would take 12-13M for JT to come to Toronto? At least that's what I read another poster said along with that it didn't take that much and for UG to lick a taint! lmao.

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14
- Atomic Wedgie

one of the best days as a leaf fan

Everybody loved the JT move and anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I'm still glad we made the move and still want him to stick around at a reasonable cap hit.

Remember when we had Bozak as our 1C? Yeah, things could be a lot worse.

JT has been aging just fine and if he signs a 5M deal, that's not outrageous for him to play 3C or the wing down the road.

Players are way more fit than they used to be too, and JT is a fitness freak who's had very few injuries over the years, so there is reason to believe that he'll be an effective player in 3+ years time.

For those of you who are saying they never wanted to sign Tavares, I suggest you first check what you said on July 1st, 2018:

https://www.hockeybuzz.co...?thread_id=153558&page=14
- Atomic Wedgie

I was at the beach that day with the kids, so not sure I was able to post.
But I do recall being super excited when news broke and I made the family listen to a bit of sports talk radio on the ride home.

Everybody loved the JT move and anyone who said otherwise is lying.

I'm still glad we made the move and still want him to stick around at a reasonable cap hit.

Remember when we had Bozak as our 1C? Yeah, things could be a lot worse.

JT has been aging just fine and if he signs a 5M deal, that's not outrageous for him to play 3C or the wing down the road.

Players are way more fit than they used to be too, and JT is a fitness freak who's had very few injuries over the years, so there is reason to believe that he'll be an effective player in 3+ years time.
- gravyface

max loved it

I already opened a bottle of good champagne 2 hours ago to celebrate Leafs signing Tavares
- MaximusAurelius

max loved it
- senstroll

Well if the Good Doctor loved it how could it not be wrong?