Sure they did, but you are talking apples to my oranges.

I'm talking where the team was when KD took over as GM and what was the right path to rebuild at that time.

You are talking about teams that won the cup and and retooled to stay relevant, two completely different situations.

The Hawks won multiple cups with multiple rosters, but the core was the same, and that was why they won multiple cups, the core.

Colorado doesn't really count in any of this conversation, their rebuild was like 10 years.

The initial debate in this topic i stated that a tear down and rebuild was never going to take 3 years, it was always going to take a min of 5.

No one anyone has mentioned yet in a response came close to a tear down and rebuild competing for cups in 3 years, and even 5 was pushing it.
- vabeachbear

Like I've said several times now. Pittsburg went completely into the poopter and turned it around in 4 years after drafting Flurey, Malkin, Crosby and Staal.

The 2000-2001 Penguins that went to the conference finals were completely different from the 2006-2007 team that made it to the playoffs Crosby's second year.

Took 4 years to fully tear down and rebuild that team into a playoff team. 5 into a finals team and 6 to win a cup. Saying the rebuild exists until they win a cup is ridiculous. The rebuild ends once they are competitive.

I contest that Kyle has had 3 drafts so they should be getting close BUT if we want to be nit picky - he's had two 1-2 picks so they should be at a minimum half way there. Unless Kyle and his team are morons in which case it doesn't matter anyway.

I've mentioned other teams like Colorado, Tampa and Florida because the reality of the situation is they may not get it right the first time and will probably have to make some tweaks along the way. That is the way most of those teams have trended.

Like I've said several times now. Pittsburg went completely into the poopter and turned it around in 4 years after drafting Flurey, Malkin, Crosby and Staal.

The 2000-2001 Penguins that went to the conference finals were completely different from the 2006-2007 team that made it to the playoffs Crosby's second year.

Took 4 years to fully tear down and rebuild that team into a playoff team. 5 into a finals team and 6 to win a cup. Saying the rebuild exists until they win a cup is ridiculous. The rebuild ends once they are competitive.

I contest that Kyle has had 3 drafts so they should be getting close BUT if we want to be nit picky - he's had two 1-2 picks so they should be at a minimum half way there. Unless Kyle and his team are morons in which case it doesn't matter anyway.

I've mentioned other teams like Colorado, Tampa and Florida because the reality of the situation is they may not get it right the first time and will probably have to make some tweaks along the way. That is the way most of those teams have trended.
- fattybeef

I may agree with you at some point but not now.

He and the org are patient, you Chunk and LA Hawk not so much.

Are you replying to your own comments again?! Thought we talked about this...it's weird...stop it.
Also fyi, Kantserov is from Russia and Arty is from Belarus. They have zero connection.
- Assman22

And I thought he was talking about Ilya Safanov........

I may agree with you at some point but not now.

He and the org are patient, you and Chunk not so much.
- BetweenTheDots

Lets see how patient they are if attendance keeps trending down. Last game was 17,500.

Well it was a fairly decent night yesterday for the Hawks in their quest for a top 4 pick. Fellow bottom feeders Montreal, San Jose, Pittsburgh and Seattle win and get 2 points. Wings and Islanders lose in OT, but still get a point. Only CBJ came away without a point.

Games of interest on the docket tonight include NSH vs TOR and Vegas at ANA. Doesn't look good for the Preds. Maybe the Ducks have a chance since the Knights will be playing a back-to-back.

Well it was a fairly decent night yesterday for the Hawks in their quest for a top 4 pick. Fellow bottom feeders Montreal, San Jose, Pittsburgh and Seattle win and get 2 points. Wings and Islanders lose in OT, but still get a point. Only CBJ came away without a point.

Games of interest on the docket tonight include NSH vs TOR and Vegas at ANA. Doesn't look good for the Preds. Maybe the Ducks have a chance since the Knights will be playing a back-to-back.
- boilermaker100

If the Hawks were to get the number one pick, who do you choose?

Lets see how patient they are if attendance keeps trending down. Last game was 17,500.
- LAHawk

I apologize for not including you, i fixed it.

And that’s why KD drafted Boisvert, Vanacker, Spellacy, Mustard and Henry last draft. Big physical guys who thrive in the trenches.
- paulr

And each and every one of these kids can skate and in Mustard's, and even Spellacy's, case they can fly. ......... Gonna be fun to see the pipeline boiled down the its 23 best players in 5 yrs.

If they need to Hawks were to get the number one pick, who do you choose?
- paulr

I haven't seen any of the prospects play so just going by what I have read there is no consensus #1. Looks like Hagens, Martone, Misa and Schaefer are the top four.

Martone could be the consensus #1. If the Hawks select first, I'd be happy with him. They could definitely use some size and skill up front.

Schaefer is rising in the ranks and he could be the consensus #1 by June. Do the Hawks select another defenseman?

Hagens is the consensus #1 now in many of the rankings so he has a lot going for him. Comparable to Jack Hughes from what I have read. One thing I don't like about him is his size 5-10, 170 lbs or so. How many of these small quick forwards are the Hawks going to ice in the future?

Misa may be ranked lower than the other 3, so I would happy with him if the Hawks are picking third or fourth.

But as many of us here say, go with the best available whoever that may be. KD and staff may be facing a tough decision.

And each and every one of these kids can skate and in Mustard's, and even Spellacy's, case they can fly. ......... Gonna be fun to see the pipeline boiled down the its 23 best players in 5 yrs.
- Mr Ricochet

Looking forward to seeing Vanacker and Spellacy in Rockford next season. Other 3 should stay in college. Hoping they can sign Greene and Rinzel after the season and send them to Rockford as well along with Lardis. DJ is probably ready for AHL but not sure yet if he'll stay in college or flip pro.

You know Fatty this, or a deal like it, is a reasonable possibility IMO. A trade that KD has probably worked on sisnce last offseason...... Frost is 25, decent size C, 27th overall who is basically a .5 per game 2 way NHLer. Not sure he'd be with the Hawks in 3-4 yrs but he'd make the lineup better today cuz he's better than Kurashev and who knows if he turns into a 2 way 20 goal 50 pt bottom 6er. And PHI would move on from him adding a tad lesser player in Kurashev, maybe not though in their eyes, and a handy 3rd rd pick/asset for Briere.

I crawled down the natural Stat Trick rabbit hole the other day and landed on Zegras, who you mention often. Drafted in 2019 outa The Program 9th overall he put up a pt per game as a true freshman at BU, 21 in 17 in the AHL then 61 pts as a rookie followed by 65 pts as a 21-22 yr old.

But his fancies were damned good, not the nightmare I thought he'd be by the eye test. A plus Corsi and HDCF his first 2 yrs scoring 61 and 65 pts then injury riddled bad yr last yr and 10 in 23 this yr.

This guy is not the off the puck liability I thought my eye thought he was and there is no doubting the kid's skill who came outa The Program with Hughes, Boldy, York, Caufield, Beniers, Beecher, Thrun and Turcotte. (Paul, I hope you get to see some kinda equivalent live sometime in that CHL-NTDP yearly thingy. Incredible and the speed had you shaking your head until the final whistle ).

Look him up at natural Stat Trick, Fatty. He'd cost a bunch and that would be alright if KD and Crew think he's a guy that can be a part of a Cup threatening squad over 5-6 yrs at the cap hit he'd get. ....... Guys like Lardis, Spellacy, Kaiser, Boisvert, 1st rd picks, Allan in some combination would be needed is my guess.
- Mr Ricochet

Zegras is a good hockey player. That has personality and confidence (or did anyway) so he gets beat up a bit.

Friedman was talking about the Ducks on a 32 thoughts podcast last week and their situation - all the talent and no goals. The mostly short version is that Cronin is an excellent teacher but a red ass. This may be what a team wants for their AHL or CHL team but you can only be so intense and hard for so long in the NHL before it just doesn't work. This is compounded by Verbeek being a red ass so its very intense all of the times.

You should have expectations and accountability for not meeting those expectations but you can't just yell at people and be punitive all the time.

The general thought there is that because its not one talented player not scoring, its their whole "core" - Carlson, McTavish, Gauthier and Zegras - that it'll be a coaching change before a roster change.

Long way of saying - it's easy to say that Zegras is going to be moved because of the contract dispute and struggles but it seems to be a bigger issue than one player so he probably isn't really on the market. If he is it seems like the price is outrageous.

I think the ask would be a similar trade to the Sergachev one. Decent defensive prospect (Allen, Kaiser, Crevier, EDM), ready to contribute forward (Reichel or Nazar or possibly Moore though it sounds like Verbeek wants size) and a late first\early second and swap of later picks.

I think that's a little rich and something along the lines of the Askarov deal makes more sense. More dependent on what Verbeek is after roster player \ prospect wise than what Kyle wants or has to give up if the player is actually available - which I don't think he is unless someone really blows up Verbeek's skirt.

New York Rangers. Feb 2018 they tell their fans they are rebuilding. '18-19, '19-20, '20-21 they are out of the playoffs. '21-22 110 pts.
- Chunk

Driven by giving Panarin a big pile of monies.

Paul, after seeing Lardis awhile he really reminds me of Geuntzal, who by the way also went in rd 3 and is listed about the same as Lardis at 5ft 11in 180lbs. Same style/approach of a poised slasher who can flat out shoot the thing. I think Lardis is faster though.

Kid has a real chance, real chance........

Forgot about the Kitchner at Brantford game was on. Two good clubs, especially Kitchner.
- Mr Ricochet

My only question, and in a completely ignorant to the CHL way - should this bump in production for his 4th CHL year be somewhat expected or is it just so outrageously good we can actually get excited about it?

I haven't seen any of the prospects play so just going by what I have read there is no consensus #1. Looks like Hagens, Martone, Misa and Schaefer are the top four.

Martone could be the consensus #1. If the Hawks select first, I'd be happy with him. They could definitely use some size and skill up front.

Schaefer is rising in the ranks and he could be the consensus #1 by June. Do the Hawks select another defenseman?

Hagens is the consensus #1 now in many of the rankings so he has a lot going for him. Comparable to Jack Hughes from I have read. One thing I don't like about him is his size 5-10, 170 lbs or so. How many of these small quick forwards are the Hawks going to ice in the future?

Misa may be ranked lower than the other 3, so I would happy with him if the Hawks are picking third or fourth.

But as many of us here say, go with the best available whoever that may be. KD and staff may be facing a tough decision.
- boilermaker100

1. Martone
2. Misa
Hagens is finally starting to find the back of the net after starting the season with 1 goal and 14 helpers. Not a true scorer though. Also undersized and more of the same that GMKD already has in stock.

1. Martone
2. Misa
Hagens is finally starting to find the back of the net after starting the season with 1 goal and 14 helpers. Not a true scorer though. Also undersized and more of the same that GMKD already has in stock. Only knock on Martone is he plays in the Q and harder to evaluate in that league.
- Assman22

Martone plays for Brampton of the OHL.

Lardis will have to learn to to survive in the land of hockey giants Which might take a bit of time.

Unbeknownst to us perhaps whenever that Russian we drafted has his contract ending, KD suddenly signs him? Had a great first season in Russia top league
- jhawk59

Kantserov deal expires after next year. He's got 8 points in 13 games coming off shoulder surgery so far.

My only question, and in a completely ignorant to the CHL way - should this bump in production for his 4th CHL year be somewhat expected or is it just so outrageously good we can actually get excited about it?
- fattybeef

Lardis was putting up over a point a game last season until his injury. So this season’s production isn’t a surprise. In fact he’s putting up similar numbers that Dave Bolland did as a 19 year old. More importantly this season he’s working on a two way game and getting more involved physically. He’s on both the number one powerplay and the second PK unit. However the next two steps to the AHL and NHL are huge. He’s no lock but his exceptional speed, shot, goal scoring ability and growth in his game are all great signs.

Martone plays for Brampton of the OHL.
- paulr

Correct and edited. I hit the wrong button with my sausage fangersss while researching lol

Pretty sure VA was talking about the rest of the roster, not Bedard.
- Chunk

Yea Chunk, I'm positive that's what he was talking about but he also said that nobody on the roster besides Bedard can hit small spots with their shot. I responded this yr even Bedard can't do that and went on to expound on why IMO and then went on to expound on that, and no VBear didn't not mention this/these part(s) in his post, of why Bedard is "slumping" this yr which is to introduce the topic which is nationally discussed, feeling it's germane, to the overall topic of the Hawks underperforming-the Hawks can't score-Bedard is or isn't generational-is he regressing-why ain't he scoring-is the rebuild on course-is it the right kinda rebuild.

You dig, or as the kids and homies say, you feelin me, Chunk?

Zegras is a good hockey player. That has personality and confidence (or did anyway) so he gets beat up a bit.

Friedman was talking about the Ducks on a 32 thoughts podcast last week and their situation - all the talent and no goals. The mostly short version is that Cronin is an excellent teacher but a red ass. This may be what a team wants for their AHL or CHL team but you can only be so intense and hard for so long in the NHL before it just doesn't work. This is compounded by Verbeek being a red ass so its very intense all of the times.

You should have expectations and accountability for not meeting those expectations but you can't just yell at people and be punitive all the time.

The general thought there is that because its not one talented player not scoring, its their whole "core" - Carlson, McTavish, Gauthier and Zegras - that it'll be a coaching change before a roster change.

Long way of saying - it's easy to say that Zegras is going to be moved because of the contract dispute and struggles but it seems to be a bigger issue than one player so he probably isn't really on the market. If he is it seems like the price is outrageous.

I think the ask would be a similar trade to the Sergachev one. Decent defensive prospect (Allen, Kaiser, Crevier, EDM), ready to contribute forward (Reichel or Nazar or possibly Moore though it sounds like Verbeek wants size) and a late first\early second and swap of later picks.

I think that's a little rich and something along the lines of the Askarov deal makes more sense. More dependent on what Verbeek is after roster player \ prospect wise than what Kyle wants or has to give up if the player is actually available - which I don't think he is unless someone really blows up Verbeek's skirt.
- fattybeef

Steer clear of Zegras, a one dimensional player whose numbers so far aren’t great, he’s a goof on the ice going after players and hiding behind the refs. He’s a better Kurashev.

Yea Chunk, I'm positive that's what he was talking about but he also said that nobody on the roster besides Bedard can hit small spots with their shot. I responded this yr even Bedard can't do that and went on to expound on why IMO and then went on to expound on that, and no VBear didn't not mention this/these part(s) in his post, of why Bedard is "slumping" this yr which is to introduce the topic which is nationally discussed, feeling it's germane, to the overall topic of the Hawks underperforming-the Hawks can't score-Bedard is or isn't generational-is he regressing-why ain't he scoring-is the rebuild on course-is it the right kinda rebuild.

You dig, or as the kids and homies say, you feelin me, Chunk?
- Mr Ricochet

Bedard needs to shoot more if anything and get the puck on net faster.

Like I've said several times now. Pittsburg went completely into the poopter and turned it around in 4 years after drafting Flurey, Malkin, Crosby and Staal.

The 2000-2001 Penguins that went to the conference finals were completely different from the 2006-2007 team that made it to the playoffs Crosby's second year.

Took 4 years to fully tear down and rebuild that team into a playoff team. 5 into a finals team and 6 to win a cup. Saying the rebuild exists until they win a cup is ridiculous. The rebuild ends once they are competitive.

I contest that Kyle has had 3 drafts so they should be getting close BUT if we want to be nit picky - he's had two 1-2 picks so they should be at a minimum half way there. Unless Kyle and his team are morons in which case it doesn't matter anyway.

I've mentioned other teams like Colorado, Tampa and Florida because the reality of the situation is they may not get it right the first time and will probably have to make some tweaks along the way. That is the way most of those teams have trended.
- fattybeef

Every situation is different and the time to rebuild really comes down to how long it takes for the players/picks you got in teardown to become NHL ready. The reason you teardown is to get those picks, especially in a situation like Chicago where they clearly stated they are rebuilding via the draft.

If the Hawks had a decent prospect pipeline, they could have done more rebuild via trade and UFA and kept some guys around like Debrincat/Hagel, etc.. No doubt when KD took over the management of the team decided they need to take a deeper cut approach of gutting nearly everything and saying they are rebuilding via the draft.

The goal of the rebuild hasn't been just get a competitive team for a few years. They want long term success. They drafted some guys who are longer term development projects. The conventional wisdom around it is when you bring up the young players, you surround them with vets to help them learn the ropes, which the team is doing. Some folks take that as is we need to have a competitive team already in place to bring the young players into, and sure, that would be nice, but it's not always realistic in a cap driven competitive league, especially when you've torn it down to the studs like the Hawks did.

Pittsburgh was a bit of a perfect storm of picks going very right and getting two offensively elite players back to back to go along with a top young Dman and very talented young goalie to build around. Their success in rebuilding was really dictated by how quickly those players got their legs under them. There is no rule to how long that takes really.

That "pretty good young roster" was bottom of their division for three years. They sold of a ton of their talent for draft picks/prospects, chose Kakko and Lafreniere, signed Panarin, traded for Fox and others and they turned it around quick.

The point is that you don't HAVE to be poop for ages while the prospects develop. Especially with the volume of prospects they already have, the picks they have in their pocket, and the cap space they have/had/will have, put some good GD players around the gem they were gifted with THEY won the lottery (technically twice).
- Chunk

TBH, the Rangers are currently a mess. Those top two picks have been okay, that’s it, and the rest of the forward group is getting old. Their defense sucks, and they are in a pickle with their struggling goaltender that wants $12M per, I’d rather be in the Hawks position. It also seems like contending teams all need either more talent on defense or a goalie. I’m glad that KD has built the backend first, even without Arty and KK, the Hawks defense looked better than the Leafs on Monday night. One more thing, Allan needs to play most nights, the kid plays solid defense, sure he’ll make a mistake once in awhile, but that’s expected from a young Dman. Now the Rangers will probably go on a five game winning streak.

So what free agent out there is available that's as good and same age as Panarin? Didn't they still keep Kreider, Mika and Zuccarelo, then switched out Zuc for Panarin, so they at least kept 1 top 6 line, we kept no one.

Don't look now Drury is beginning to panic 4 of his top 6 or top 4 players are in their 30's so i guess he's going to have to start juggling like Carolina.
- BetweenTheDots

Not that I'm arguing for the Hawks to sign him, but literally Mitch Marner.

The Rangers launched Buchnevich, Zuccarello, Hayes, Fast, Skjei, Shattenkirk and JT Miller (and probably a few others that I'm missing).

I know we kept no one. That's the mistake that I think KD made. They have the cap space and resources to put a better team on the ice. I think it is better to do it sooner than later. The fact that they have tons of prospects coming up allows them to move on from older contracts instead of resigning them to deals that they know will put them in cap hell.

And now up against the cap, over paid older players, and only got as far a conf finals.

You think they're set up for multiple cups now???

I don't gauge success by a playoff win or two. I'll say it again Cups is all that counts.
- vabeachbear

That's about all you can ask for. They won a President's cup, and made the conference finals. They have the goalie. Their D could use some work, and they have a couple of forwards not producing who are normally PPG players.

As I mentioned to Dots, the Hawks have a full pipeline now and plenty of picks going forward. They won't have to saddle themselves with bad contracts to older players because their young kids will be coming up and if the FO is worth a damn, they will fill in very well.