It should be clear that this is very different from tanking, where organizations are actively trying to lose.
- jd250

The thing is you are still losing either way. Tanking just means that you are icing a talent challenged team. Doesn't mean the team needs to play like losers.

If Konecny and Laughton were traded would the rest of the guys just stop trying? Or would Torts have a different standard?

IMO, No I don't thnk they do. There is a difference to me between losing games and competing hard and losing games on purpose which is what tanking teams do. And by on purpose I don't mean the players throw the game, but instead management does not give the team what it needs to succeed. Players are not stupid. Players can see when management doesn't give a crap about winning. And though players want to win, when they see their leadership doesn't care, they eventually don't care either. Its touch to get rid of that perception once its in place. The Flyers are trying to win every game they can. They just don't win games because they lack high end talent and have the worst goaltending in the league. But no, I don't think the Flyers have a losing culture. I think there a few different ways to build a contending team. Tanking is one of those ways and not one I support.
- jd250

Nobody is suggesting that the Flyers purposely lose games.

My point is, Edmonton took a very long time before they got to the finals, and though the series went 7 games, it really was not that close; Florida was a superior team. Now if Edmonton gets back there this year and eventually wins then we can say getting Draisaitl and McDavid payed off. But up until last year, Edmonton was a joke of a franchise. Its too early to say they have got past that.
- jd250

I don't think the Oilers have been a joke up until last season. I'd swap their franchise with the Flyers going back to 2015.

It should be clear that this is very different from tanking, where organizations are actively trying to lose.
- jd250

For the most part, players (and coaches) are still trying to win during a tank.

The GMs just put them at such a disadvantage that winning becomes very unlikely.

It's not some blanket state where everybody in the org just rolls over.

IMO, No I don't thnk they do. There is a difference to me between losing games and competing hard and losing games on purpose which is what tanking teams do. And by on purpose I don't mean the players throw the game, but instead management does not give the team what it needs to succeed. Players are not stupid. Players can see when management doesn't give a crap about winning. And though players want to win, when they see their leadership doesn't care, they eventually don't care either. Its touch to get rid of that perception once it’s in place. The Flyers are trying to win every game they can. They just don't win games because they lack high end talent and have the worst goaltending in the league. But no, I don't think the Flyers have a losing culture. I think there a few different ways to build a contending team. Tanking is one of those ways and not one I support.
- jd250

Is management giving the team what they need to succeed now?

They do have a losing culture. Not sure how you or anyone else can deny that fact. This organization is a poop show.

So if guys like Laughton and Risto are moved does that show management doesn’t care? Will that have a negative effect on the room and the great culture they are building.

You seem to be talking out both sides of your mouth.

Apparently losing when you're trying to win somehow doesn't count as losing.
- Tomahawk

I suppose. Head scratching.

Teams that succeed via tanking are often celebrated while those who don't are ignored. For every Pittsburgh there is a Buffalo. Every time a team wins a Stanley Cup everyone is like THAT is how you have to do it. It's either great Defense, top goalie or Starpower forwards. It's just winning.
I like the way the Flyers are doing it. You develop talent by playing them in a winning atmosphere. Like a horse trained to lose, it is difficult to stop tanking players once you start. When they get better, then you have a better product to use or trade for more assets. And I think we have put together a lot of good assets here. You think you can't trade for the right players? The great one was traded. Anyone can be traded.

Toronto is a perennial cup contender regardless of how they end up. Edmonton lost in the cup final last year and is once again a contender. Are you really going to sit there and tell us you would rather not be either of those teams, with their rosters, over what Philly has currently? Puhleehz.

Colorado, Chicago, LA, Tampa, Florida and Pittsburgh also say hi. Dallas is also now a contender.


You can keep bringing up Buffalo, and in a way that is good, because what has happened in Buffalo is much closer to what is happening in Philly now. They may draft reasonably well, but their development and asset management has been piss poor. Philly has drafted poorly to go along with piss poor development and asset management. I am much more inclined to believe that the current Flyers philosophy will end up worse than where the Sabres are now.

And don't tell me they are improving. 9 regulation wins in 40 games is absurd. They are not a good team, nor are they a talented team. And they have no real elite talent anywhere in the system except maybe Zavragin.

Even if they hit on many of these picks, they still wont be viable NHL contributors for 5 years.

They feel like they are in the middle of the rebuild and I say it hasn't even started yet. They are holding on for dear life like an aged pro who should have retired 2 seasons ago.

You have to draft your stars and sign your support to win in this league. The Flyers seem to have the opposite approach. They will overpay for UFAs in the later years of their careers instead of paying elite players as youth and in their primes. It may open a window, but it will be relatively short and end up inevitably as a cap strapped, top heavy, overpaid veteran laden team once again on the bubble.

Pretty tough to find those type of players picking outside the top 10…good news is it seems DB struggles like most past Flyers GM’s….he can’t seem to find competent goaltending. By having the worst goaltending in the entire league this team has a good shot this year at a top 10 pick.
All this method of building is doing is allowing the Flyers to be a mediocre team for yet another decade.
And please….enough of the term “rebuild”. Rebuilding teams openly trade vets with value for future pieces….the Flyers seem to want to skip that part….
If I had a message for DB? You should send Krug a gift basket for refusing your deal for him to come to Philly…another misstep avoided.
- landros2

Regarding the goaltending, its been a tough year. Carter Hart was their goalie and he got arrested. Ersson is a competent backup but so far cannot stay on the ice enough to be a reliable starter. Kolosov belongs in the AHL but is being allowed to apparently hold up the franchise and keep himself on the NHL team. Fedotov has been underwhelming so far. The good news I guess compared to past regimes is there a few good goalie prospects in the piepline as Briere has tried to restock the position. I think you will see Briere trading vets this deadline and off season for future assets. He traded Walker last season, and now that Risto has really improved his play I think there is a good market for him. Laughton is another player at a great price that teams going into the playoffs would covet.

Toronto is a perennial cup contender regardless of how they end up. Edmonton lost in the cup final last year and is once again a contender. Are you really going to sit there and tell us you would rather not be either of those teams, with their rosters, over what Philly has currently? Puhleehz.

Colorado, Chicago, LA, Tampa, Florida and Pittsburgh also say hi. Dallas is also now a contender.


You can keep bringing up Buffalo, and in a way that is good, because what has happened in Buffalo is much closer to what is happening in Philly now. They may draft reasonably well, but their development and asset management has been piss poor. Philly has drafted poorly to go along with piss poor development and asset management. I am much more inclined to believe that the current Flyers philosophy will end up worse than where the Sabres are now.

And don't tell me they are improving. 9 regulation wins in 40 games is absurd. They are not a good team, nor are they a talented team. And they have no real elite talent anywhere in the system except maybe Zavragin.

Even if they hit on many of these picks, they still wont be viable NHL contributors for 5 years.

They feel like they are in the middle of the rebuild and I say it hasn't even started yet. They are holding on for dear life like an aged pro who should have retired 2 seasons ago.

You have to draft your stars and sign your support to win in this league. The Flyers seem to have the opposite approach. They will overpay for UFAs in the later years of their careers instead of paying elite players as youth and in their primes. It may open a window, but it will be relatively short and end up inevitably as a cap strapped, top heavy, overpaid veteran laden team once again on the bubble.
- MBFlyerfan

You seem to want to live in the past, while I prefer to live in the present and look forward to the future. I agree with you that you draft and develop your stars and sign your support, but I don't agree the Flyers are doing the opposite. Who are the stars on the current Flyers team? There are not many I grant you, but the ones they have: TK, Michkov, both were drafted, not signed. Briere and Jones have not signed or overpayed for any UFAs in the later years of their careers. The Flyers are currently not cap strapped and the Flyers are not a veteran laden team. Briere has never stated they are in the middle of a rebuild, at least that I have heard, and has never committed to a timeline when the Flyers will be good again. Jones has stated multiple times the team is not even close. These are the facts. Sorry.

Regarding the goaltending, its been a tough year. Carter Hart was their goalie and he got arrested. Ersson is a competent backup but so far cannot stay on the ice enough to be a reliable starter. Kolosov belongs in the AHL but is being allowed to apparently hold up the franchise and keep himself on the NHL team. Fedotov has been underwhelming so far. The good news I guess compared to past regimes is there a few good goalie prospects in the piepline as Briere has tried to restock the position. I think you will see Briere trading vets this deadline and off season for future assets. He traded Walker last season, and now that Risto has really improved his play I think there is a good market for him. Laughton is another player at a great price that teams going into the playoffs would covet.
- jd250

Why didn't he trade anyone besides Walker last year? Why did he extend gh, rp, and ns?

He is on record that The Room™ is invaluable to this team

You will believe anything that the organization says and you will defend it ad nauseam making your self look foolish in the process

You seem to want to live in the past, while I prefer to live in the present and look forward to the future. I agree with you that you draft and develop your stars and sign your support, but I don't agree the Flyers are doing the opposite. Who are the stars on the current Flyers team? There are not many I grant you, but the ones they have: TK, Michkov, both were drafted, not signed. Briere and Jones have not signed or overpayed for any UFAs in the later years of their careers. The Flyers are currently not cap strapped and the Flyers are not a veteran laden team. These are the facts. Sorry.
- jd250

TK is a nice player but he is not a star. And by the time this team is good, if at all, he will be well past his prime. And I am living in the future, you live in the past. I am telling you what is going to happen in the future. By listening to exactly what Briere and Jones have said they will do. How do you not get this? They have said time and time again that when they get the cap space they are going to use it. Who do you think they will be signing? Rookies???

My point is, Edmonton took a very long time before they got to the finals, and though the series went 7 games, it really was not that close; Florida was a superior team. Now if Edmonton gets back there this year and eventually wins then we can say getting Draisaitl and McDavid payed off. But up until last year, Edmonton was a joke of a franchise. Its too early to say they have got past that.
- jd250

Do yourself a favor and become informed. Do some research and see how long it took for TB to win the Cup after drafting Stamkos and Hedman. See how long it took Colorado after drafting MacKinnon. See how long it took Florida after drafting Barkov. This is the reality for most teams. Which is why I have posted multiple times. The drafting of Michkov should be considered the beginning of the rebuild. With more rebuilding to do. They still need 2 defenseman and two centers of all star to elite caliber players. How do they get them?

You seem to want to live in the past, while I prefer to live in the present and look forward to the future. I agree with you that you draft and develop your stars and sign your support, but I don't agree the Flyers are doing the opposite. Who are the stars on the current Flyers team? There are not many I grant you, but the ones they have: TK, Michkov, both were drafted, not signed. Briere and Jones have not signed or overpayed for any UFAs in the later years of their careers. The Flyers are currently not cap strapped and the Flyers are not a veteran laden team. Briere has never stated they are in the middle of a rebuild, at least that I have heard, and has never committed to a timeline when the Flyers will be good again. Jones has stated multiple times the team is not even close. These are the facts. Sorry.
- jd250

There is no future for this team with the way they operate and are going to operate.

Do yourself a favor and become informed. Do some research and see how long it took for TB to win the Cup after drafting Stamkos and Hedman. See how long it took Colorado after drafting MacKinnon. See how long it took Florida after drafting Barkov. This is the reality for most teams. Which is why I have posted multiple times. The drafting of Michkov should be considered the beginning of the rebuild. With more rebuilding to do. They still need 2 defenseman and two centers of all star to elite caliber players. How do they get them?
- MJL

Shawsie is gonna coach up the D prospects -- you just wait and see

TK is a nice player but he is not a star. And by the time this team is good, if at all, he will be well past his prime. And I am living in the future, you live in the past. I am telling you what is going to happen in the future. By listening to exactly what Briere and Jones have said they will do. How do you not get this? They have said time and time again that when they get the cap space they are going to use it. Who do you think they will be signing? Rookies???
- MBFlyerfan

Cap space gives a team a lot of flexibility. Not just to sign players, but also to take on bad contracts for younger or future assets. You are assuming that Briere and Jones want to build a team of FAs that can make 1 or 2 runs and then fade away, as Flyers regimes have done in the past. Jones and Briere have stated many times this is not what they want or how they want to build the team. You are predicting a pessimistic future which I honestly can't blame you for given the history of this franchise. But I am going to take Briere and Jones' word for it until they show me otherwise. And so far, their actions are aligned with their words. If they don't trade more veterans this deadline or before the draft, and try to build on the little they have via FAs, then I will be right there with you.

Cap space gives a team a lot of flexibility. Not just to sign players, but also to take on bad contracts for younger or future assets. You are assuming that Briere and Jones want to build a team of FAs that can make 1 or 2 runs and then fade away, as Flyers regimes have done in the past. Jones and Briere have stated many times this is not what they want or how they want to build the team. You are predicting a pessimistic future which I honestly can't blame you for given the history of this franchise. But I am going to take Briere and Jones' word for it until they show me otherwise. And so far, their actions are aligned with their words. If they don't trade more veterans this deadline or before the draft, and try to build on the little they have via FAs, then I will be right there with you.
- jd250

Ok, well, I certainly hope you are right and I am wrong.

Top picks don’t matter in building Stanley Cup winners?

Toews 3rd overall
Kane 1st overall
Stamkos 1st overall
Hedman 2nd overall
Doughty 2nd overall
Petrangelo 4th overall
Eichel 2nd overall
Crosby 1st overall
Malkin 2nd overall
Ovechkin 1st overall
Tkachuk 6th overall
Reinhart 2nd overall
Barkov 2nd overall
Eckblad 1st overall

Still hitting with stars after a top 6 pick helps too (seethe following )

Point
Keith
Kucherov
Letang

The Flyers have nothing like these guys. Arguably TK would be a major contributor on any Stanley Cup contender with players like the bone to play with. But anyone who says high draft picks don’t produce Champions is selling a bill of goods.

Teams like Toronto and Edmonton have historically been mismanaged and coached and have not been put together all that well as far as depth and goaltending goes, but Edmonton did make it to game 7 of the SCF this past year.

The lesson here is a team needs a mixture of ELITE talent, great depth, solid defense, good goaltending and excellent coaching. The Flyers arguably have an elite winger in a young Michkov, but at the moment, the only other young player that looks like a potential future difference maker is perhaps Foerester. Maybe a few guys are that solid depth that’s needed.

Ya know what breeds a winning attitude? WINNING! All the players drafted by losing teams are the very players that transformed losing organizations in to winners.

You know what makes a winner? See the above-referenced mixture.

No one should intentionally lose. That’s crooked. But having a plan to get top picks and then building that way? Well Chicago, Pittsburgh, Tampa, Florida, Washington, and others would tend to prove that it’s imperative.

I have no faith in Briere. While it’s not easy acquiring top picks or talent via trade, it’s not impossible, and Briere hasn’t shown the stomach for it. You want a good prospect you need to move someone or a pick for him. I don’t know what has been available in real life, perhaps nothing. However, it also feels as if Briere refuses to trade players he has because he’s either gun shy or overvalued his own players.

Regardless, the Flyers were 20-13-6 this time last year. Today they are 17-18-5. Seems like a major step back, despite pretty much the same team as last year with the exception of MM39 and all these young guys being one year older. SMH

Teams that succeed via tanking are often celebrated while those who don't are ignored. For every Pittsburgh there is a Buffalo. Every time a team wins a Stanley Cup everyone is like THAT is how you have to do it. It's either great Defense, top goalie or Starpower forwards. It's just winning.
I like the way the Flyers are doing it. You develop talent by playing them in a winning atmosphere. Like a horse trained to lose, it is difficult to stop tanking players once you start. When they get better, then you have a better product to use or trade for more assets. And I think we have put together a lot of good assets here. You think you can't trade for the right players? The great one was traded. Anyone can be traded.
- flylerid

There is no winning atmosphere currently with the Flyers. Their points percentage under Tortorella since he has been here is under .500. There is no evidence that tanking is a permanent status or culture. The future players you acquire will set the culture. You can't create a winning culture without winning. Yea, Gretzky was traded. Let's go with that.

There is no future for this team with the way they operate and are going to operate.
- MJL

I think we need to consider what Briere and Jones inherited from the dufas Fletcher. They inherited infact a veteran laden, cap strapped team at the bottom of the league, filled with bad contracts. You and others just seem to think that they can wish these problems away and just start trading everyone. Recall what Hextall inhereited from Holmgren? Pretty similar right? It took Hextall 4 years to try to unravel the mess he started with, and his poor decision making made it only worse. In order to trade veterans, those veterans have to be players other teams want. Briere did a masterful job getting rid of Hayes. His trade of Provorov worked out great for the Flyers also. Trading Walker got a number 1 pick back. It takes time to unravel the mess Fletcher left the organization in. We have to face facts, the Flyers do not have many veteran players other teams want, whether that is based on their contracts or performance. Risto has significantly improved, whether you want to admit that or not, and teams will push hard to get him with no salary retention now, so it was wise for Briere to hold on to him. I think the culture is established enough now that Laughton should be traded, especially at his price tag. I also think there will be a big trade coming, one that will involve picks and younger players like Farabee. Frost unfortunately has not improved his trade value, but he may be valuable in a change of scenary swap. These are things I predict are going to happen, and when they do, your perspective on what the plan is should change.

Nobody is suggesting that the Flyers purposely lose games.
- MJL

There's a vast difference between the players and coaches purposely losing games, and the GM trading off talent to put them in a position where they can't help but lose games.

Sincerely,

Leafs Nation

For the most part, players (and coaches) are still trying to win during a tank.

The GMs just put them at such a disadvantage that winning becomes very unlikely.

It's not some blanket state where everybody in the org just rolls over.
- Tomahawk

Damn - looks like you've already covered this.

Do yourself a favor and become informed. Do some research and see how long it took for TB to win the Cup after drafting Stamkos and Hedman. See how long it took Colorado after drafting MacKinnon. See how long it took Florida after drafting Barkov. This is the reality for most teams. Which is why I have posted multiple times. The drafting of Michkov should be considered the beginning of the rebuild. With more rebuilding to do. They still need 2 defenseman and two centers of all star to elite caliber players. How do they get them?
- MJL

They get them by either drafting and developing them, signing them as FAs or trading for them. There is no secret formula here. Tanking does not guarentee a team anything.

I think we need to consider what Briere and Jones inherited from the dufas Fletcher. They inherited infact a veteran laden, cap strapped team at the bottom of the league, filled with bad contracts. You and others just seem to think that they can wish these problems away and just start trading everyone. Recall what Hextall inhereited from Holmgren? Pretty similar right? It took Hextall 4 years to try to unravel the mess he started with, and his poor decision making made it only worse. In order to trade veterans, those veterans have to be players other teams want. Briere did a masterful job getting rid of Hayes. His trade of Provorov worked out great for the Flyers also. Trading Walker got a number 1 pick back. It takes time to unravel the mess Fletcher left the organization in. We have to face facts, the Flyers do not have many veteran players other teams want, whether that is based on their contracts or performance. Risto has significantly improved, whether you want to admit that or not, and teams will push hard to get him with no salary retention now, so it was wise for Briere to hold on to him. I think the culture is established enough now that Laughton should be traded, especially at his price tag. I also think there will be a big trade coming, one that will involve picks and younger players like Farabee. Frost unfortunately has not improved his trade value, but he may be valuable in a change of scenary swap. These are things I predict are going to happen, and when they do, your perspective on what the plan is should change.
- jd250

The dufus that put the team on the path to the cup in your opinion? That dufus? I told you then that it was far more likely to hurt the team than help them with Fletcher's moves. I'm telling you again, that they're going to put the team right back into the cap strapped problem contract team in the future. Then you'll begin the next cycle of rubber stamping when the next regime is hired. What culture is established? LOL Ristolainen has not come close to improving where teams are going top push hard for him. The other team scores 60% of the goals when he is on the ice. He is still a defensive train wreck. He'll have some value as a 3rd pair defenseman at 50% retained. No playoff level team is going to take on that contract at full value to play in their top 4. You've been telling me my perspective should change for years. You'll never get it. How many times do you have to be hit in the head before you learn to duck? In all seriousness?

Tanking is for idiots & the visionless. If you have an ounce of hockey knowledge you can build your way out of a mess & course correct without ripping everything down. Those who want to rip it all down & hope for McDavid & Matthews to fix all the problems lack vision & knowledge. & that is the easy way out but even still it doesn’t guarantee anything. Buffalo Detriot Ottawa Montreal even Ed was horrible for far too long & went through multiple tanking efforts w a string of #1 picks/top 5 picks. Have a clue have some knowledge have a vision & you can make it happen without ripping it all down.

How’s the process doing? Nba teams like Detroit orlando chi charlotte wsh no have sucked for years while tanking. Same few teams in football suck every year too. Tanking is for the clueless