Islanders
Florida
Atlanta
Phoenix
Nashville
Columbus

Look at that :

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009
- Ams123

wow colarado sure fell off.......i think it should be based more ticket revenue than attendance.

6 teams that wont survive?

Atlanta - Seriously, their only draw is Kovalchuk and he can't do it alone. Unless Kane, Bogosian and their other top picks start panning out, they're finished. By 2015, Kovalchuk is probably playing in some other city anyway.

Islanders - It sucks. It sucks real, real hard. Ranger fans will miss them painfully, believe it or not. That franchise has exactly 2 years to turn around before they're going to be moved or generate the revenue for the Lighthouse project.

Florida - The Panthers just can't do it. They keep going and going and somehow can't build a winner. Furthermore, they're a distant 4th in their own city to teams like the Marlins and Dolphins.

Buffalo - They are totally unwilling to spend on their guys. They let their best players go and do nothing to replace them. Fans will get tired. On the upside, their movement will likely provide justification for a team in another southern Ontario metro area.

Edmonton - Yes, this is a Canadian Hockey Hotbed. Unfortunately, players don't want to go there, it's been a while since they've had a consistent winner (key word consistent), the place is a frozen wasteland, and the players just don't seem to want to be there. That will take it's toll.


- LetsGoRangers!

Dude!

Did Andy Strickland pay you $20 to say this?

Islanders
Florida
Atlanta
Phoenix
Nashville
Columbus

Look at that :

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attendance?year=2009
- Ams123

In terms of attendance percentage, the teams to go would be:

Atlanta
Florida
NYI
Phoenix
Tampa Bay
Colorado

So I think that there have been some ideas exchanged here that are both interesting and outside the norm. That all being said, I really can empathize with what you're saying, and do apologize for anyone who is under the impression that I'm trying to create some type of flame war here. Some topics, such as anything having to do with losing a team, are sensitive, but I don't think that means we can't discuss them in a respectful manner.
- shawn_gates

I understand why you presented the question, and I acknowledge that ALL of the opinions haven't been the same. It's just annoying to hear the vitriol spewed from the uneducated fans that come and make up attendance or profit "facts" and parade them around.

But I get your point, certainly, and respect the conversation you wished to start.

So rather than pick 6 teams, I'll just lobby for my own.

'Canes (frank)ing rock. We have the best fans in the league. I've been following them win or lose for years, nothing will change that (barring them naming Milbury as our next GM). And last but not least...

I grew up in Raleigh, NC and I know and respect hockey. No redneck hockey here, just real hockey. Read me if you need proof:

http://greaticepectations.blogspot.com/

The way I feel is, my words on a message board aren't going to convince anyone. The only thing the Hurricanes needs to shut up the naysayers is time. Every year they are going to show up and and shut up one more person who says hockey can't work in the south, because it can. And someone will write a blog on this topic EVERY YEAR without fail, and everyone will come on and say the same few teams no matter what.

Maybe I need to stop reading them and just be content in the fact that everyone who hates on Carolina is misinformed and will be proven wrong.
- CanesRallyCry

Look, I understand the frustration, but realize that this topic says nothing about hockey not working in the south. It was purposefully left vague so that people could address the topic in a number of different ways. Will some people stick with the status quo? Yes. Will others reach beyond that? Yes. And it's the latter stuff that I think is the most intriguing for ALL OF US as hockey fans to discuss. I'm of the opinion that if we can bring stuff like this up more often with new perspectives and possibilities on it then we'll all leave better informed. Will some aspects of the conversation be dumbed down by rudeness or disrespect? Yeah, and that occurs on most every thread on this site on a daily basis. It's the unique thoughts that make it entertaining and informative and I hope that's come through in some of the conversation here...

wow colarado sure fell off.......i think it should be based more ticket revenue than attendance.
- jakenewton

Or even overall revenue. The NY teams all do relatively fine because the media market can support three teams. Same with Dallas, with the population of Texas so high and no other team in the state. Is it a niche market? sure, but they survive. Phoenix, on the other hand, continues to lose money even though I think it is, like, in the top 10 media markets in the country. No offense, yotes fan(s), but that won't work for too long.

Or even overall revenue. The NY teams all do relatively fine because the media market can support three teams. Same with Dallas, with the population of Texas so high and no other team in the state. Is it a niche market? sure, but they survive. Phoenix, on the other hand, continues to lose money even though I think it is, like, in the top 10 media markets in the country. No offense, yotes fan(s), but that won't work for too long.
- londondave

im pretty sure LA and the ducks can survive. LA's owner is one of the wealthest in the NHL i believe.

Gary Bettman for Prez '12. I like my handouts-thank you very much. Keep 'em coming...

I didn't read the several pages of replies, but I doubt I have to. I'd say it's pretty clear who would go in this situation.

Florida
Atlanta
Phoenix
Nashville
Tampa Bay
Carolina

My theory is probably really similar to most other folks. Hockey is not a sport for casual fans. There are lots of casual fan sports out there, but being a hockey fan is a commitment. These cities all have one thing in common, and that's a largely casual fan base. I don't blame them at all, it's hard when you didn't grow up with it as part of your daily life.

I felt bad adding Carolina, because I think their fans are really good actually. 7 years ago, I wouldn't have had an issue adding them to the list. They're only on it because he wanted 6 teams, and to me all of the other ones seem to fit.

Actually, I still don't think that California hockey works, but obviously that's just my opinion, because it is working, at least financially and from the curiosity angle.

im pretty sure LA and the ducks can survive. LA's owner is one of the wealthest in the NHL i believe.
- jakenewton

Yeah, and both franchises will have great players for the next while too. Although, I do not know much about the Kings (Getting too old to stay up to watch the games in the Eastern time zone). What about reversing the discussion, which towns deserve teams that don't have one? Specifically American towns (Cause the 'peg, QC and the Hammer have kinda been beaten to death). Should Portland get a team? Kansas City has that new arena.

I personally would hate to see Las Vegas get a team, just doesn't seem right IMO.

I understand why you presented the question, and I acknowledge that ALL of the opinions haven't been the same. It's just annoying to hear the vitriol spewed from the uneducated fans that come and make up attendance or profit "facts" and parade them around.

But I get your point, certainly, and respect the conversation you wished to start.

So rather than pick 6 teams, I'll just lobby for my own.

'Canes (frank)ing rock. We have the best fans in the league. I've been following them win or lose for years, nothing will change that (barring them naming Milbury as our next GM). And last but not least...

I grew up in Raleigh, NC and I know and respect hockey. No redneck hockey here, just real hockey. Read me if you need proof:

http://greaticepectations.blogspot.com/
- CanesRallyCry

Really great insight!! Awesome job!

Gary Bettman for Prez '12. I like my handouts-thank you very much. Keep 'em coming...
- Polecat

I can see the bumper stickers now... the Bettman-Boots ticket. Suddenly, Sarah Palin becomes the smart choice.

Yeah, and both franchises will have great players for the next while too. Although, I do not know much about the Kings (Getting too old to stay up to watch the games in the Eastern time zone). What about reversing the discussion, which towns deserve teams that don't have one? Specifically American towns (Cause the 'peg, QC and the Hammer have kinda been beaten to death). Should Portland get a team? Kansas City has that new arena.

I personally would hate to see Las Vegas get a team, just doesn't seem right IMO.
- londondave

i just dont want vegas to have a team because the gambling getting mixed up with the players

Honestly i think you have to look at AHL/WHL etc attendance and consider doing a swap.

I can see the bumper stickers now... the Bettman-Boots ticket. Suddenly, Sarah Palin becomes the smart choice.
- londondave

Just don't let her drop anymore pucks. Legace still has nightmares.

Shawn Gates: "What if...?" #1: What if the NHL Contracted to 24 Teams?
- shawn_gates

Tampa
Phoniex
Florida
Atlanta
Kansas (that is where the fishticks will be)
nj devils

Gone:
Ducks- picked the Sharks and the Kings
Yotes- just silly, better left for a Paul McCann blog
BJ's- went with the Preds
Thrashers- Canes will sustain
Panthers- Lightning have won
Avs- isn't the same as the Nordiques

Norris:
Blues
Hawks
Leafs
Wings
Wild
Preds

Smythe:
Oilers
Flames
Kings
Sharks
Nucks
Stars

Adams:
Habs
Sabres
Bruins
Canes
Lightning
Sens

Patrick:
Caps
Devils
Rangers
Pens
Isles
Flyers

WOW! That was hard to do.

1. Phoenix - for obvious reasons
2. Florida - still can't draw, bleeding money, can't ice a competitive team
3. Edmonton - hurts to say it, but it's a small market, players seem to avoid it and if the oil market ever crashed, I'm not sure Alberta could support two franchises
4. One of NY Islanders or NJ Devils - Neither team draws well, but I think with a new arena and a decent team, the Isles would draw better than the Devils. That said, the Devils seem to have a much more stable ownership and management team.
5. Atlanta - failed once, is failing again
6. Nashville - lack of corporate support, tenous ownership

New alignment:
Boston
Montreal
Ottawa
Toronto
Buffalo
Pittsburgh

NY Rangers
NY Isles/NJ Devils
Philadelphia
Carolina
Tampa Bay
Washington

Detroit
Chicago
Minnesota
St. Louis
Dallas
Columbus


Calgary
Vancouver
LA
Anaheim
San Jose
Colorado

Gone:
Ducks- picked the Sharks and the Kings
Yotes- just silly, better left for a Paul McCann blog
BJ's- went with the Preds
Thrashers- Canes will sustain
Panthers- Lightning have won
Avs- isn't the same as the Nordiques

Norris:
Blues
Hawks
Leafs
Wings
Wild
Preds

Smythe:
Oilers
Flames
Kings
Sharks
Nucks
Stars

Adams:
Habs
Sabres
Bruins
Canes
Lightning
Sens

Patrick:
Caps
Devils
Rangers
Pens
Isles
Flyers

WOW! That was hard to do.
- gobluenotes

What are these division names you speak of? assman will never let hockey tradition back into hockey -- your thoughts are so far out of the box that you must be banned

1. Ottawa - imploding as we speak, and will never escape the shadow of the Leafs.
2. Edmonton - pretty much NA's version of a third world city (tied with New Orleans)
3. Colorado - without Sakic, it's all over.
4. Phoenix - will only last as long as Gretzky is the coach
5. Nashville - dumbest fans in the league, they won't last
6. Buffalo - unless they can swing relocation to Niagara Falls, which would be a gold mine.

1. Ottawa - imploding as we speak, and will never escape the shadow of the Leafs.
2. Edmonton - pretty much NA's version of a third world city (tied with New Orleans)
3. Colorado - without Sakic, it's all over.
4. Phoenix - will only last as long as Gretzky is the coach
5. Nashville - dumbest fans in the league, they won't last
6. Buffalo - unless they can swing relocation to Niagara Falls, which would be a gold mine.
- chirpie

Curious -- ever been to a game there?

Well as intriguing as the topic of a 24 team league is....let's take a step back and make it a 28 team league first and see where that gets us first.

It used to work fine before the last expansion so let's re-visit shall we.

In this scenario, we need 2 teams to just plain disappear:

Florida
Atlanta

It is obvious that 2 teams in Florida make no sense and given that Tampa Bay has a Cup and more star players they retain their franchise...at least for now.

Having said that...now we need to re-evaluate re-allocation.

Obviously, Phoenix is doomed to fail...you can't have hockey in a desert. So let's do the right thing here and move them back to Winnipeg. The Canadian dollar has been North of .80USD for over 3 years consistenly now and Winnipegers are the most supportive AHL city and could easily outdraw Phoenix.

Phoenix-Winnipeg

Secondly, Buffalo...listen I love the Sabres and wish they could stay in the league as they draft well and despite paying the salary floor are often competitive. But this is the team that logically makes the most sense for Balsille to own...move them across the border and allow for the Buffalo fans to retain allegience and get them to Hamilton or Kitchener-Waterloo.

Buffalo-Kitchener Waterloo

And then...just let's see how it works. Colorado, Nashville, and Carolina are bubble teams certainly and of the 3 I see Nashville failing and the other 2 teams surviving.

While I would like to move Colorado back to Quebec, they have won cups, have an okay fan base and tons of star power in their history.

Move Nashville back to Quebec if they don't shape up and call it a league at 28 teams (9 Canadian teams). I think realistically Canada with the much stronger dollar can support 10 teams (1 in Halifax) and have 18 based US franchises that are all strong.


League would look like this:

Northeast:

Montreal
Quebec
New Jersey
Boston
Ottawa
New York Rangers
New York Islanders

Central:

Detroit
Toronto
St. Louis
Hamilton
Chicago
Pittsburgh
Philidelphia


Northwest:

Colorado
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Carolina
Washington
Columbus

Pacific:

Tampa Bay
Dallas
Anaheim
San Jose
Vancouver
Los Angeles
Minnesota

I understand why you presented the question, and I acknowledge that ALL of the opinions haven't been the same. It's just annoying to hear the vitriol spewed from the uneducated fans that come and make up attendance or profit "facts" and parade them around.

But I get your point, certainly, and respect the conversation you wished to start.

So rather than pick 6 teams, I'll just lobby for my own.

'Canes (frank)ing rock. We have the best fans in the league. I've been following them win or lose for years, nothing will change that (barring them naming Milbury as our next GM). And last but not least...

I grew up in Raleigh, NC and I know and respect hockey. No redneck hockey here, just real hockey. Read me if you need proof:

http://greaticepectations.blogspot.com/
- CanesRallyCry

and to further the point that the Canes are a team here to stay...

http://sports.espn.go.com...spn/news/story?id=4289483

External forces however, it was not the way he's defending American teams who have basically never turned a profit in a decade, Nashville may have I'm not sure, but I am almost certain the Oil had had at least one profitable season, same with Vancouver.
- keslover17

and you weren't turning profits either, your teams were on life support, so was Ottawa, did the league threaten to move them? NO they uncovered every rock to keep them where they are, which is what they are doing for Phoenix.

vancouver was fine........ownership was always fine in vancouver
Ingrates?
How about the nhl welfare system that the canucks owner pays almost 20 mill a year for so nashville pheonix and the islanders to stay in the NHL
- jakenewton

If the owners don't like the system, don't agree to it! Nashville turned profit this year, more info that comes out in Phoenix, more sounds like Moyes had some very shady business dealings with the team.

The Islanders are a storied franchise who play in a dump, get them in a good area and things will turn around.

And no Vancouver was not fine, your hero Brian Burke had to maintain a budget under 40 million dollars to keep the team viable

1) Take out one NY area team: NJD or NYI
2) Take out one florida team
3) Coyotes
4) Atlanta
5) LA area team (anaheim or kings)
6) nashville
- donkeykong79

Ok, remove one team when both are well supported every night!

and the Nashville garbage is annoying they are expanding their base every year and are finally starting to turn profits.