how does this post make any sense? penner MIGHT finish with more points? penner is going to finish with ALOT more points because not only is he playing better but he is going to play MORE than kessel. and i dont understand how u can say that even if penner finishes with more points he isnt as good as kessel.... if penner finishes with more points, he was better plain and simple. he is better defensively, bigger, and is one of our best PKers.

thats like saying if mike fisher finishes with more points than robert nilsson, nilsson is still better... one trick ponies are one trick ponies.... if they are performing their "trick" they arent any good.
- gretzky

Yeah, you sort of missed the sentence after that one that illustrates that Kessel had major shoulder surgery and was on the IR for first month of the season. I say Kessel is better than Penner on skill alone and their careers bare that out.

The fact is Penner isn't a stand out "star"player in any particular aspect of his game. Yeah he's got a size advantage, but he rarely uses it. He's a good player but he's not a star and he doesn't have the ability and potential that Kessel has.

Besides like someone else already posted.....it's stupid to be arguing who's better when you are talking about 2 of the worst teams in the league.

It sucks being a fan of a team that's losing so much. Every time I show any bravado about my team, I actually feel guilty about it.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

lol

it would be nice if a few leaf fans on here felt that way once and awhile.

i stopped reading here.... maybe check the stats before you run your mouth.
- gretzky

I was talking career wise. Hard to base an opinion on whos a better based on a half a season.

Besides like someone else already posted.....it's stupid to be arguing who's better when you are talking about 2 of the worst teams in the league.
- Sens2k5

Well what else are we supose to do? Its not like we can argue about who will win if we meet in the stanley cup finals this year.

lol

it would be nice if a few leaf fans on here felt that way once and awhile.
- Sens2k5

Many do, it's just that the unrealistic ones tend to be louder and more unreasonable, so they're the ones that get remembered. Im pretty sure most Leaf fans have stopped drinking the Kool-Aid at this point.

40 points in 43 games on the 29th placed team and a +9.

Fling semantics about all you like, Penner is better than Poni. I seriously can't believe there's even a comparison being made. Penner is better than any player the Leaf's have and yes, that includes Kessel too. We can also do the "well how many points in the last _____ games does he have?" if you like.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

So, 43 games is your definition of "current"? does that mean, at the 60 game mark, we can finally put this BS about Penner being a good player behind us?

how does this post make any sense? penner MIGHT finish with more points? penner is going to finish with ALOT more points because not only is he playing better but he is going to play MORE than kessel. and i dont understand how u can say that even if penner finishes with more points he isnt as good as kessel.... if penner finishes with more points, he was better plain and simple. he is better defensively, bigger, and is one of our best PKers.

thats like saying if mike fisher finishes with more points than robert nilsson, nilsson is still better... one trick ponies are one trick ponies.... if they are performing their "trick" they arent any good.
- gretzky

Penner is better this season, although he is 27 whereas Kessel is 21, so Kessel has more value.

Penner is better this season, although he is 27 whereas Kessel is 21, so Kessel has more value.
- bureforearthsprez

Penner WAS better. For about 15 games.

how does this post make any sense? penner MIGHT finish with more points? penner is going to finish with ALOT more points because not only is he playing better but he is going to play MORE than kessel. and i dont understand how u can say that even if penner finishes with more points he isnt as good as kessel.... if penner finishes with more points, he was better plain and simple. he is better defensively, bigger, and is one of our best PKers.

thats like saying if mike fisher finishes with more points than robert nilsson, nilsson is still better... one trick ponies are one trick ponies.... if they are performing their "trick" they arent any good.
- gretzky

so, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Penner straight up?

Penner WAS better. For about 15 games.
- prock

So, hows Kessel doing lately?

so, you wouldn't trade Kessel for Penner straight up?
- Feeling Glucky?

no because we have an abudance of tiny players that are useless away from the puck. kessel is one of the only snipers in the league i DONT want on my team. Kessel (aswell as many others) i feel is one of those players that will be a negative for a team no matter how many points he gets. he could put up 80 points and on a mediocre or less team, he will always be a minus player. Some argue that hemsky is the same way and thats the only reason i would ever entertain trading him. hemsky, as fun as he is to watch, and yes he racks up points, does he really help the team? you guys can say that kessel helps your team because you increased your wins since he joined but come on, you had NOWEHERE to go but up, and if you check the standings, he really hasnt helped at all. kessel is a one trick pony who is even more streaky than penner and i personally feel he will never crack 40 goals or even 70 points for that matter..and even if he does he will probably be a minus player anyway..

EDIT: the difference between kessel and penner is that both are streaky but only one of them is good away from the puck (penner). Both have only one good season (penner had 2 but he is way older) but penner has managed to rack up points without the same kind of talent that kessel had around him. to me, the choice is obvious who i would rather have... however, kessel is young and the only arguement anyone can make about him is that he has alot of years to improve his game.

here's a fact for you, gagner is on pace to finish within 1 point of kessel and is 2 years younger (i know, 10 less games though, not a big deal factoring ice-time in) and people have called him a bust....

It boggles my mind how Leaf and Oiler fans have sunk so low that they no longer have any shame. We now have this raging debate about which awful team's slumping player is worse than the other. Which of the midgets is shorter than the other. Which skunk is most odious. Perhaps if you combined the Leaf and Oiler rosters it might be something more than an AHL line up.

It boggles my mind how Leaf and Oiler fans have sunk so low that they no longer have any shame. We now have this raging debate about which awful team's slumping player is worse than the other. Which of the midgets is shorter than the other. Which skunk is most odious. Perhaps if you combined the Leaf and Oiler rosters it might be something more than an AHL line up.
- spatso

fun idea.

Kessel Penner Hemsky
Hagman Horcoff Gagner
Poni Stajan Cogliano
O'Sullivan Brule Comrie

Kaberle Souray
Visnovsky Komisarek
Beachemin Smid

Khabby
Monster

lol, we still dont look like a cup contender

fun idea.

Kessel Penner Hemsky
Hagman Horcoff Gagner
Poni Stajan Cogliano
O'Sullivan Brule Comrie

Kaberle Souray
Visnovsky Komisarek
Beachemin Smid

Khabby
Monster

lol, we still dont look like a cup contender
- gretzky

The defence looks pretty good though.

The defence looks pretty good though.
- TheTaoOfSemenko

ya a nice blend of offense, defense, and checking. i likey the D...

fun idea.

Kessel Penner Hemsky
Hagman Horcoff Gagner
Poni Stajan Cogliano
O'Sullivan Brule Comrie

Kaberle Souray
Visnovsky Komisarek
Beachemin Smid

Khabby
Monster

lol, we still dont look like a cup contender
- gretzky

Defense is great, offense is sadly lacking. I'd like to see some Oilers/Leafs lineups with a salary cap.

Defense is great, offense is sadly lacking. I'd like to see some Oilers/Leafs lineups with a salary cap.
- bureforearthsprez

please no cap.... too embarassing..

Defense is great, offense is sadly lacking. I'd like to see some Oilers/Leafs lineups with a salary cap.
- bureforearthsprez

Someone posed the question the other day, but I'm too hung over to put the numbers together - Would the US Olympic team fit under the salary cap? I mean, lose Drury, who you could argue shouldn't be there, and it just might.

Penner WAS better. For about 15 games.
- prock

Besides Kessel's first 15 games i don't think he has been better than anyone. What does he have 1 point in his last 10 games?

Besides Kessel's first 15 games i don't think he has been better than anyone. What does he have 1 point in his last 10 games?
- jordan456789

Whic would really suck if you put a lot of stock in what happens over a 10 game stretch.

Whic would really suck if you put a lot of stock in what happens over a 10 game stretch.
- prock

So Penner's 15 game stretch was an aberration, but Kessel's 15 game stretch was the norm?

So Penner's 15 game stretch was an aberration, but Kessel's 15 game stretch was the norm?
- TheTaoOfSemenko

Yes, Penner's 15 game stretch was most definitely an aberration. Is Kessel's 10 game stretch? Well yes, it is. Based on the 10 games plus playoffs he played last year, he is capable of producing more. How much of one, no one can say for sure. It's very possible he's just a 25 goal, 60 point guy. I won't argue that. Personally, I think he's more, but he doesn't have enough of a track record to firmly support it either way. That's because he's barely 22. There is a very big difference between having a very short record of producing top results, at a very young age, and having a reasonably long record of producing very mediocre results, in the prime of your career.

Seriously though - why would you even try to argue Kessel vs. Penner? It's a losing proposition for you.

Yes, Penner's 15 game stretch was most definitely an aberration. Is Kessel's 10 game stretch? Well yes, it is. Based on the 10 games plus playoffs he played last year, he is capable of producing more. How much of one, no one can say for sure. It's very possible he's just a 25 goal, 60 point guy. I won't argue that. Personally, I think he's more, but he doesn't have enough of a track record to firmly support it either way. That's because he's barely 22. There is a very big difference between having a very short record of producing top results, at a very young age, and having a reasonably long record of producing very mediocre results, in the prime of your career.

Seriously though - why would you even try to argue Kessel vs. Penner? It's a losing proposition for you.
- prock

maybe you should read the edmonton journal article about penner. he has been a late bloomer his entire career. even penner himself says he feels like a different player out there. if you dont believe that a player can get better after 26 then you're the biggest moron i know.. face it, penner is much better this year than previous years so all we can base his current talent on is this year. and right from the beginning of preseason he was amazing. and no prock, it wasnt just 15 good games he has played about 35 good games and 7 bad ones not including pre-season.

i should add that a bad game for penner just means he goes invisible offensively. it doesnt mean he causes 2 goals and finishes with a -3 like kessel. Penner still PKs and does the little things away from the puck that make him a strong player though..

maybe you should read the edmonton journal article about penner. he has been a late bloomer his entire career.

- gretzky

Who cares that an Edmonton newspaper trying to sell newspapers wrote a nice article about a guy on a hot streak. I bet you I can find 50 articles at least on reasons why we should consider Matt Stajan a top NHL player. But I'm not fooled into thinking he is. Why are you fooled into thinking Penner is a top player.

even penner himself says he feels like a different player out there.

- gretzky

oh. Now I'm convinced.

if you dont believe that a player can get better after 26 then you're the biggest moron i know..

- gretzky

Have I ever said that. It happens. But to show significant improvement at 27 years old is VERY rare. The odds are very much against it.

face it, penner is much better this year than previous years so all we can base his current talent on is this year. and right from the beginning of preseason he was amazing. and no prock, it wasnt just 15 good games he has played about 35 good games and 7 bad ones not including pre-season.

- gretzky

So he's played 7 bad games, 35 good games, but been kept of the scoresheet in about half of the games he's played? That's a LOT of games that you think he's played well, just not actually produced anything. Generally, if someone plays well for a long stretch, the numbers will follow. You think that Penner is somehow different?

i should add that a bad game for penner just means he goes invisible offensively. it doesnt mean he causes 2 goals and finishes with a -3 like kessel. Penner still PKs and does the little things away from the puck that make him a strong player though..
- gretzky

Umm, yeah, right.