Some leaf fans expect instant success with every new coach, GM or rookie brought into the team.............they don't have the patience to watch a team go through a rebuilding program.
- Doppleganger

I think you must be talking to yourself here.

MLSE sells out every game. That's all the patience an organization needs. They sold out every game in the 80's when Ballard owned it.
- RogerRoeper

WTF are you talking about? How is this relevant at all?

WTF are you talking about? How is this relevant at all?
- prock

If rebuilding means you have a horrible team and your attendance dwindles, then you might be afraid to do a full rebuild. I've never understood people claiming Toronto isn't patient enough for a full rebuild because ownership won't lose a dime. If any team can withstand a long-term rebuild, it's the Leafs. They building will be full no matter what.

If rebuilding means you have a horrible team and your attendance dwindles, then you might be afraid to do a full rebuild. I've never understood people claiming Toronto isn't patient enough for a full rebuild because ownership won't lose a dime. If any team can withstand a long-term rebuild, it's the Leafs. They building will be full no matter what.
- RogerRoeper

You've never understood people claiming Toronto isn't patient enough for a full rebuild? Seriously?

You realize they haven't done in it in as far as most can remember, right? You realize the general public in Toronto gets impatient after 1 or 2 years of missing the playoffs, right? You realize the ownership has been arrogant enough to think they can just buy their way back into the playoffs in recent history, and not worry about missing the playoffs, right? You realize this mentality is exactly what's cost the team the playoffs 5 years in a row now, right?

People say that Toronto isn't patient enough, because barring a few big hockey fans who realize that several down years would be exactly what's needed, the vast majority don't have the attention span for a full rebuild. Unfortunately, it would have to be forced upon them. I may not be a big doomsday preacher like some idiots around here, but I fully realize that the route Burke is taking will definitely get the Leafs to a pretty good team, it's not giving the Leafs the highest odds of actually winning a cup. It's a surefire route to a good team, but not a great one.

Bad attendance means you cut back on your biggest expenses. Generally, many of your highest paid vets. And that actually encourages a rebuild, doesn't discourage it.

In the last 10 years the Senators missed the playoffs once, last year and it looks like they are about to reverse that and return to playoff form this year. During that period they have been to the Stanley Cup finals once and gone to the Eastern conference final twice. They have had some incredible playoff series with Buffalo, New Jersey and Toronto. They have given their fans highly talented teams and greatly entertaining hockey. They seem to be going through their rebuild in a pretty responsible way.

No team was impacted by the salary cap than the Senators. They had to decide between Chara and Redden and picked wrong. They had to let go of Havlat.

I am not sure why but they seem to be a much better team without Heatley. I think there is nothing in the Leaf posturing that makes them look more silly then the jealosy they have around the Senators success. It is perhaps time for the Leafs to look at Senators management and how they go about managing the transition from one phase to the next.

Remember how everyone said the Senators would not survive the loss of Yashin (they got better).

Next they said the Senators would not survive the loss of Chara (they went to the Stanley Cup final).

Next they said that the Senators would struggle with the loss of Heatley (clearly they have improved).

I say again, the Leafs could learn much from the Senators about managing a franchise over a long term basis.

In the last 10 years the Senators missed the playoffs once, last year and it looks like they are about to reverse that and return to playoff form this year. During that period they have been to the Stanley Cup finals once and gone to the Eastern conference final twice. They have had some incredible playoff series with Buffalo, New Jersey and Toronto. They have given their fans highly talented teams and greatly entertaining hockey. They seem to be going through their rebuild in a pretty responsible way.

- spatso

and? They were coming off a multi-year big time tank. Most teams that spend several years in the bottom 3 or 4 in the standings pick up a few good players and do well for a few years. It's a testament to poor management that they accomplished as little as they did.

No team was impacted by the salary cap than the Senators. They had to decide between Chara and Redden and picked wrong. They had to let go of Havlat.


- spatso

Umm, yeah, the Leafs most definitely were impacted more than the Sens. The Leafs were pretty heavily dependent on being able to outspend most teams to stay at the top of the league, despite mediocre management. Without the aid of a payroll leaps and bounds above everyone else, they've struggled. The Rangers are another team that was hit reasonably hard.

I am not sure why but they seem to be a much better team without Heatley. I think there is nothing in the Leaf posturing that makes them look more silly then the jealosy they have around the Senators success. It is perhaps time for the Leafs to look at Senators management and how they go about managing the transition from one phase to the next.

- spatso

I'm in no way jealous of the Sens. They're a joke. Look at Sens management? And what, learn what not to do?

Remember how everyone said the Senators would not survive the loss of Yashin (they got better).

- spatso

Hahah.

Next they said the Senators would not survive the loss of Chara (they went to the Stanley Cup final).

Next they said that the Senators would struggle with the loss of Heatley (clearly they have improved).

- spatso

Nah, I've never said that. I've always felt it would be in the long-term interest of the Sens to trade either Heatley or Spezza. It was a good move, but can you really give Sens management credit for something they were forced into?

I say again, the Leafs could learn much from the Senators about managing a franchise over a long term basis.
- spatso

I say again, they can learn from the Sens about what not to do.

You're Doppleganger, aren't you? Nobody who reasonably looks at the situation objectively can honestly feel that the Sens are an overly well managed club. They took the proceeds of years of tanking, and didn't really manage to do very much with it. They regularly traded away players, and chose to keep the wrong ones.

It's plainly obvious you're a Sens fan, trying to troll as a Leafs fan. I'm pretty sure it's your alt to Doppleganger. You talk glowingly about the Sens in just about every post. It's the freaking SENS. They've got pretty close to NOTHING to brag about. If one were to pick a team of good management to model after, it would not be the Sens. The fact that you do, pretty much assures me that you're a Sens fan troll.

I say again, they can learn from the Sens about what not to do.

You're Doppleganger, aren't you? Nobody who reasonably looks at the situation objectively can honestly feel that the Sens are an overly well managed club. They took the proceeds of years of tanking, and didn't really manage to do very much with it. They regularly traded away players, and chose to keep the wrong ones.

It's plainly obvious you're a Sens fan, trying to troll as a Leafs fan. I'm pretty sure it's your alt to Doppleganger. You talk glowingly about the Sens in just about every post. It's the freaking SENS. They've got pretty close to NOTHING to brag about. If one were to pick a team of good management to model after, it would not be the Sens. The fact that you do, pretty much assures me that you're a Sens fan troll.
- prock

I do not normally respond to your posts because you tend to be rude and offensive and seldom have any comments of real merit. However, you have asked a fair question and I will respond as best I can.

I grew up in northern ontario, a Leaf fan. I thought everybody was a Leaf fan except for the few french people that I knew and they were Montreal fans. When I moved to Ottawa I was a Leaf fan through and through and I was astounded by the number of Montreal fans that lived in Ottawa. It was the first time I was introduced to real fan rivalry because up to that point the only games I ever saw on a regular basis were Leaf games. When the Senators got their franchise I did not pay much attention to them. But when they made the playoffs the first time and especially when they won their first playoff round (Devils) I noticed how differently they seemed to manage their player assets than the Leafs. I have admired the Sens managment for a long time, I wish the Leafs had an owner like Melnyk and I think I fairly objectively look at the Leafs and Senators in terms of the way they are doing their rebuild and I see the Senators as being light years ahead. I believe the Leafs just don't get it. I believe that the Leaf fans and media that allow them to get away with this make all Leaf fans suffer.

I now spend half the year living in the Ottawa valley about 80km from Ottawa and the other half I spend in Florida where I follow the Panthers fairly closely. This year has been different and I have not gone to Florida as I usually do. I leave next week but for only 6 weeks. So, I am well exposed to both the Ottawa and Toronto scenes. If you were to call me a closet Senators fan I could not disagree. I like the way they do business. I am also a fan of Montreal and of the Panthers. I like hockey. But, if you dig to the deepest vein you see that I am blue. I was born a Leaf fan and I will always be a Leaf fan. But, I am angry with them and with the fans who function as apologists for their ongoing failures.

I would also say that Howard Berger does an outstanding job of giving a clear assessment of the reality of Leaf Nation. The fact that so many people do not want to listen to what he says is more a reflection on their judgement rather than the quality of his input.

I do not normally respond to your posts because you tend to be rude and offensive and seldom have any comments of real merit. However, you have asked a fair question and I will respond as best I can.

I grew up in northern ontario, a Leaf fan. I thought everybody was a Leaf fan except for the few french people that I knew and they were Montreal fans. When I moved to Ottawa I was a Leaf fan through and through and I was astounded by the number of Montreal fans that lived in Ottawa. It was the first time I was introduced to real fan rivalry because up to that point the only games I ever saw on a regular basis were Leaf games. When the Senators got their franchise I did not pay much attention to them. But when they made the playoffs the first time and especially when they won their first playoff round (Devils) I noticed how differently they seemed to manage their player assets than the Leafs. I have admired the Sens managment for a long time, I wish the Leafs had an owner like Melnyk and I think I fairly objectively look at the Leafs and Senators in terms of the way they are doing their rebuild and I see the Senators as being light years ahead. I believe the Leafs just don't get it. I believe that the Leaf fans and media that allow them to get away with this make all Leaf fans suffer.


- spatso

Well, here's the thing. Maybe you need to start looking at what other teams management has been doing. Because while I realize that Leaf management has been far from stellar, the Sens management has not been much better, if at all. Had the Leafs tanked for so many years, like the Sens, they'd probably be as good, if not better. They had FIVE straight top 3 picks, three of them first overall picks. And that's BEFORE they go Spezza second overall. Don't confuse the mediocre success they had to be as a result of good management, instead of a hardcore tank (granted, yes, as a result of being an expansion team). Find me ONE team that tanked THAT hard, and still managed so little success. Their track record is actually quite pathetic given all of those top picks.

I now spend half the year living in the Ottawa valley about 80km from Ottawa and the other half I spend in Florida where I follow the Panthers fairly closely. This year has been different and I have not gone to Florida as I usually do. I leave next week but for only 6 weeks. So, I am well exposed to both the Ottawa and Toronto scenes. If you were to call me a closet Senators fan I could not disagree. I like the way they do business. I am also a fan of Montreal and of the Panthers. I like hockey. But, if you dig to the deepest vein you see that I am blue. I was born a Leaf fan and I will always be a Leaf fan. But, I am angry with them and with the fans who function as apologists for their ongoing failures.
- spatso

Holy crap, you're exposed to all kind of terrible management. All 4 of those clubs are amongst the worst managed teams in the league over the past decade. No wonder you think the Sens are so wonderfully managed, all you're comparing it to is crap.

Try following some teams with truly good management, and delve into the dynamics of what they do. The Red Wings, the Devils, Nashville (no, I'm not joking, they do so much with so little - Poile is an amazing GM), Dallas. These are clubs that know how to build good teams, and keep them good.

I think you'll find pretty quickly that Ottawa is not the shining model you think they are. They haven't been very well managed at all. And I'm not saying this to hype up the Leafs. Far from. I just don't see that they done any better. They're both at the bottom in this respect.

I would also say that Howard Berger does an outstanding job of giving a clear assessment of the reality of Leaf Nation. The fact that so many people do not want to listen to what he says is more a reflection on their judgement rather than the quality of his input.
- spatso

no, it's a reflection of his input. If he would stick to covering the team, he wouldn't irk so many people. But it's the only way he gets an audience, because he truly isn't a very good writer, and he isn't a great hockey analyst either. What is he left with, to get an audience? Just controversy. He needs it to survive.

I would also say that Howard Berger does an outstanding job of giving a clear assessment of the reality of Leaf Nation. The fact that so many people do not want to listen to what he says is more a reflection on their judgement rather than the quality of his input.
- spatso

Or could you like him because he tells you what you want to hear?

no, it's a reflection of his input. If he would stick to covering the team, he wouldn't irk so many people. But it's the only way he gets an audience, because he truly isn't a very good writer, and he isn't a great hockey analyst either. What is he left with, to get an audience? Just controversy. He needs it to survive.
- prock

And he thanks you Leafers for providing his niche for him, you love to hate on him as much as he loves to hate on the Leafs and their management. Every blog he manages to get you Leafers panties in a knot and it just gives him more hits and many more reasons to continue, keep up the good work...

And he thanks you Leafers for providing his niche for him, you love to hate on him as much as he loves to hate on the Leafs and their management. Every blog he manages to get you Leafers panties in a knot and it just gives him more hits and many more reasons to continue, keep up the good work...
- eihcnerf

There is a lot of truth in this, however it may appear more dramtic than it really is.
On the main Leaf blogs TMLfans.ca the commentary is pretty realistic and most of the serious fans know the team is in a world of hurt. On this blog you find the fans who have gone out in the wilderness to drink their kool-aid. It is like the gangsters who have to go to the matresses. They tend to be very emotional if not somewhat irrational. They are by no means reflective of the main stream of Leaf Nation and, clearly, they misrepresent one of the great fan bases.

oops

And he thanks you Leafers for providing his niche for him, you love to hate on him as much as he loves to hate on the Leafs and their management. Every blog he manages to get you Leafers panties in a knot and it just gives him more hits and many more reasons to continue, keep up the good work...
- eihcnerf

No. Past tense. Not very many pay attention to him anymore. His blogs used to get towards 100 pages of comments. Now? He's lucky to get 20, and if you actually look at them, the majority of the posts are not made by Leaf fans. He's been tuned out.

I say again, they can learn from the Sens about what not to do.

You're Doppleganger, aren't you? Nobody who reasonably looks at the situation objectively can honestly feel that the Sens are an overly well managed club. They took the proceeds of years of tanking, and didn't really manage to do very much with it. They regularly traded away players, and chose to keep the wrong ones.

It's plainly obvious you're a Sens fan, trying to troll as a Leafs fan. I'm pretty sure it's your alt to Doppleganger. You talk glowingly about the Sens in just about every post. It's the freaking SENS. They've got pretty close to NOTHING to brag about. If one were to pick a team of good management to model after, it would not be the Sens. The fact that you do, pretty much assures me that you're a Sens fan troll.
- prock

no, he's not me, but he sees a lot of things that I do because he is objective.

no, he's not me, but he sees a lot of things that I do because he is objective.
- Doppleganger

that was good

I see where this morning sportsclubstats.com now lists the Leafs at 0% possibility of making the playoffs. It is the first day for them to have been taken off the big board completely. It is over. Does this mean the agony is coming to an end?

the real Agony is listening to all you idiots.

I see where this morning sportsclubstats.com now lists the Leafs at 0% possibility of making the playoffs. It is the first day for them to have been taken off the big board completely. It is over. Does this mean the agony is coming to an end?
- spatso

Quoting the same stupid sites? Come on, there is no way. You must be doppleganger.

I see where this morning sportsclubstats.com now lists the Leafs at 0% possibility of making the playoffs. It is the first day for them to have been taken off the big board completely. It is over. Does this mean the agony is coming to an end?
- spatso

Ah.... It will never end.

Quoting the same stupid sites? Come on, there is no way. You must be doppleganger.
- prock

Back somewhere on this thread a long time ago and far, far away somebody recommended that site and I have gone to it every day since. I love the site. If it was Doppleganger who made the recommendation to me I am deeply grateful. It has some great information, even including some stuff I used to calculate by hand for myself

Back somewhere on this thread a long time ago and far, far away somebody recommended that site and I have gone to it every day since. I love the site. If it was Doppleganger who made the recommendation to me I am deeply grateful. It has some great information, even including some stuff I used to calculate by hand for myself
- spatso

You never calculated that stuff by yourself, I guarantee you. That main page is a calculation of all the different permutations of wins/losses/OTLs that each team can get in each game, and the numbers of them that calculate to them making the playoffs.

the numbers of those would literally go into the billions, and there is no way you're doing that by hand. Ever.

You never calculated that stuff by yourself, I guarantee you. That main page is a calculation of all the different permutations of wins/losses/OTLs that each team can get in each game, and the numbers of them that calculate to them making the playoffs.

the numbers of those would literally go into the billions, and there is no way you're doing that by hand. Ever.
- prock

That is very good. I did not mean that I did the final calculation on probability. I have never liked the NHL point system in ranking teams in the standings. For example a team with a record of 31-20-6 would be shown as having 68 points and would be shown as being 5 points ahead of a team with a record 30-17-3 and 63 points. In fact, the second club is really 2 games ahead of the first club if you calculate the difference between games played and point total. I commented on the fact that I did the calculation all the time to get a better feel for the standings and someone (perhaps Doppleganger) pointed me in the direction of the clubstats web page where that calcuation and much more is reported everyday. Love the site.

Just like the Energizer bunny......