Okay, a chance at 50 goals in multiple seasons, I think that eliminates everyone but Stamkos, Ovechkin, Crosby, and Malkin. I don't know if I'm missing anyone. And, I'd say that Ovechkin has not been showing that eh's an elite anything in recent history, Crosby unfortunately is a question mark these days. So, really, one or two elite goal scorers. Crosby and Malkin are also altogether elite players overall.

As far as his shooting % goes, you could also argue he creates more chances than most, through his speed and other things, and that's what makes him an elite goalscorer. i.e. other players are only "making more from less" because Kessel is making that less more.
- Dirte

I think thats what elite should be - the 3-5 guys who can do it consistently at a level higher than others. While Kessel is consistent, he hasn't or come close to putting up those types of numbers.

I agree that he creates alot of chances, but i would say a true goal scorer is one who converts those opportunities. Relative to other players in his range his conversion rate is low meaning his stats are more a product of probability (more shots = more goals) whereas others are attaining the same goal scoring with less chances making them better goal scorers.

I think thats what elite should be - the 3-5 guys who can do it consistently at a level higher than others. While Kessel is consistent, he hasn't or come close to putting up those types of numbers.

I agree that he creates alot of chances, but i would say a true goal scorer is one who converts those opportunities. Relative to other players in his range his conversion rate is low meaning his stats are more a product of probability (more shots = more goals) whereas others are attaining the same goal scoring with less chances making them better goal scorers.
- sens rock

who cares what the conversion rate is when the puck is going in?

who cares what the conversion rate is when the puck is going in?
- Feeling Glucky?

better conversion rate = more goals.

who cares what the conversion rate is when the puck is going in?
- Feeling Glucky?

I understand what he’s saying. But I’m not sure I can agree. There are too many things to factor in. Would Kessel have a higher shooting % if he were getting clean shots off, from the top of the circle, because Martin St. Louis was feeding him, and they couldn’t key on Kessel. And, I’d say that putting yourself in a situation for a scoring chance is a part of what makes one an elite scorer. If Kessel is doing that more frequently than the next person, I think that’s a positive thing, not a negative one. To me, it isolates the ability to put the puck in the net once you have it, and are in the right position, as your measure of goal scoring ability. Personally, I think those things are a part of goal scoring ability.

better conversion rate = more goals.
- sens rock

Well, that's not necessarily true though. If one creates 10 opportunities, and converts on 10% of them, he’s not getting any more goals than someone who creates 20, and scores on 5% of them.

I understand what he’s saying. But I’m not sure I can agree. There are too many things to factor in. Would Kessel have a higher shooting % if he were getting clean shots off, from the top of the circle, because Martin St. Louis was feeding him, and they couldn’t key on Kessel. And, I’d say that putting yourself in a situation for a scoring chance is a part of what makes one an elite scorer. If Kessel is doing that more frequently than the next person, I think that’s a positive thing, not a negative one. To me, it isolates the ability to put the puck in the net once you have it, and are in the right position, as your measure of goal scoring ability. Personally, I think those things are a part of goal scoring ability.
- Dirte

Im just playing devils advocate here. Obviously scoring 30+ goals every season is nothing to sneeze at and what gives kessel alot of his value. I was taking issue with glucker saying he was an elite scorer, which clearly he is not.

Well, that's not necessarily true though. If one creates 10 opportunities, and converts on 10% of them, he’s not getting any more goals than someone who creates 20, and scores on 5% of them.
- Dirte

but if that player who had 20 chances was scoring at a 10% rate then he would have more goals than the guy @ 10% with 10 chances.

Im just playing devils advocate here. Obviously scoring 30+ goals every season is nothing to sneeze at and what gives kessel alot of his value. I was taking issue with glucker saying he was an elite scorer, which clearly he is not.
- sens rock

Well, as discussed earlier, that depends on your definition of "elite". I agree, and wouldn't consider him one. But given his numbers, and incredible consistency from season to season with them, I don't think he's far off.

but if that player who had 20 chances was scoring at a 10% rate then he would have more goals than the guy @ 10% with 10 chances.
- sens rock

so, what you're saying is, "all other things equal......", then the guy scores more goals. And my response to that is, those things that you require to be equal, will never be, and they're fairly important in terms of goal scoring. You can't just ignore that.

For example, a guy like Dave Andreychuk. He spent a good portion of his career sitting in front of the net, and was so difficult to handle for Dman. They guy got more garbage goals than likely any player in the history of the NHL. His reach, strength and size, is what made him a goal scorer. Not particularly pretty. But, hard to say he wasn't one hell of a goal scorer.

so, what you're saying is, "all other things equal......", then the guy scores more goals. And my response to that is, those things that you require to be equal, will never be, and they're fairly important in terms of goal scoring. You can't just ignore that.
- Dirte

No i agree with that. A guy like Moulson has 3 consective 30 goal seasons and a career 14.5% shooting %, but also plays with Tavares so that has to account for something.

I still think Kessels career 10.5% leaves something to be desired in a goal scorer. For the chances that he has, and by all accounts he has just as many if not more prime scoring chances as his peers, you would probably expect him to be a little closer then what it is now.

Well, as discussed earlier, that depends on your definition of "elite". I agree, and wouldn't consider him one. But given his numbers, and incredible consistency from season to season with them, I don't think he's far off.
- Dirte

I agree that he has elite consistency, but not elite goal scoring talent. which is what separates him from a guy like stamkos.

I agree that he has elite consistency, but not elite goal scoring talent. which is what separates him from a guy like stamkos.
- sens rock

And this is fine with me, but still goes to the point that Stamkos is above and beyond every other player in the NHL in these terms. Therefore, using this thought process, there is only one elite goal scorer in the NHL right now. Well, you may be able to include Malkin, although questionable even him, using what you're saying. If that's your definition of elite, then so be it, no one can say you're wrong.

"Elite" goalscorer is tricky. For example, I would consider Jarome Iginla an elite goalscorer, not because he scored 52 goals in 2001, then 50 in 2007. Rather, because he's put up 30+ goals for 11 straight seasons, a feat that Crobsy, Malkin, Ovechkin and Stamkos each may never reach. That level of consistency makes him pretty elite, especially without a centre of any high calibre. In fact, I seem to remember that counting the year-in, year-out 30+ goal scorers puts Kessel in pretty elite company. For someone who gets ragged for being streaky, Kessel is a very consistent goal-scorer on a year to year basis.

You'd like to see Kessel put up 40-50 goals before you call him elite, but a perennial 30-goal scorer is a rarer, more "elite" feat than people give credit for.

You'd like to see Kessel put up 40-50 goals before you call him elite, but a perennial 30-goal scorer is a rarer, more "elite" feat than people give credit for.
- Morris

cheechoo comes to mind

kessel = alex semin light

kessel = alex semin light
- jakenewton

Luongo=Raycroft


Though I don't think Raycroft ever let in 8 goals in a game.

Luongo=Raycroft


Though I don't think Raycroft ever let in 8 goals in a game.
- Feeling Glucky?

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...IBWPbCfgM6?gid=2006102614

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...n1p0XCfgM6?gid=2011012103

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...nREA7CfgM6?gid=2009012917

7 goals against three times. man he's bad.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...IBWPbCfgM6?gid=2006102614

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...n1p0XCfgM6?gid=2011012103

http://ca.sports.yahoo.co...nREA7CfgM6?gid=2009012917

7 goals against three times. man he's bad.
- daeth

it's still not 8

kessel = alex semin light
- jakenewton

canucks have more issues to deal with than trolling the leafs... terribly as per usual

id be more concerned about still being the laughing stock of the league when it comes to diving and whining

or maybe they should solve their 10 million dollar net issue

or maybe they should worry that only the sisters and burrows have 10 points on the year as forwards

ahh im sure you guys will do fine in the playoffs when the real teams show up and use their strength and will to overpower the National canadian dive team.

Socrates believed the question was always more important than the question. In terms of your language, is it be possible that their are no stupid questions? Perhaps, only stupid answers?
- spatso

yes

yes
- Doppleganger

First, I must admit that I am already prejudiced against Burke for dealing the two first round picks of Kessel. So, my judgment may be clouded by my strong bias against dealing any high picks let alone two first rounders.
- spatso

At the time of your post ↑↑↑↑, we did not who the draft picks were going to be. Now a few years later we know Seguin is sporting a Stanley Cup Championship ring on his finger, and Dougie Hamilton has just completed his rookie season.

On the other hand Kessel has finished eighth in points on a team that is seeing it's first playoff game this week since 2004.

So it will be an interesting side story that I'm sure the media will play up over the course of this series.

At the time of your post ↑↑↑↑, we did not who the draft picks were going to be. Now a few years later we know Seguin is sporting a Stanley Cup Championship ring on his finger, and Dougie Hamilton has just completed his rookie season.

On the other hand Kessel has finished eighth in points on a team that is seeing it's first playoff game this week since 2004.

So it will be an interesting side story that I'm sure the media will play up over the course of this series.
- Doppleganger

I won't be listening. I've given my side of the trade and I've heard a million times how the media feels. There's nothing more to say about that trade.

I hope Dougie looks good in his suit from the pressbox.

If looks could kill.......................

If looks could kill.......................
- Doppleganger

The guy sitting beside Elisha would be dead?


She's not even owe to looking in her direction.