WOW Chris Neil is being such a p*ssy tonight. Gets away with an elbow AND won't fight.

P*SSY!

Now, if you want to get into semantics and defining "elite" in this context, I'm sure we can both make arguments...suffice it to say he has a very high ceiling and a big reason is his vision and passing skills...they still need some refining and further development at this level, so in that sense I can understand not seeing them as elite right now, but the raw skill is there to become one of the leagues elite passers...but if you want to say he isn't there yet, I get that.
- exlund

It's not semantics. There are 95 players in the NHL with more assists than Giroux currently. He has raw talent. Whether he gets to the elite level remains to be seen. But as of right now, there is nothing elite about Giroux.

About the time that Pronger is a foregone conclusion, Sbisa will be playing top minutes for somebody. Unless the Flyers win the Cup, which doesn't seem likely at this point. It was a bad deal.
- MJL

That's quite a high bar to set...so, if they had kept Lupul the picks and Sbisa, would that assure a Cup or something? When? Would those picks, Sbisa (in the AHL) and Lupul (disaster/injured season) have been better than having Pronger this season, next season and the next? How much closer do you think they would be to being able to win a Cup if they had not brought in Pronger versus the path they took?

That's quite a high bar to set...so, if they had kept Lupul the picks and Sbisa, would that assure a Cup or something? When? Would those picks, Sbisa (in the AHL) and Lupul (disaster/injured season) have been better than having Pronger this season, next season and the next? How much closer do you think they would be to being able to win a Cup if they had not brought in Pronger versus the path they took?
- exlund

Where did I say that it would assure a Cup? They'll be closer to winning a cup a few years from now if they had kept the #1 picks and Sbisa. If they don't win the Cup, with Pronger, it's a bad deal. It's that simple.

It gave up youth and the future to win now. As well as further hamstringing the Cap. If you don't win now, it's a bad deal. You don't make that deal just to be a good team and to be competitive. He was brought in to be the so called "missing peice".

This post crystallizes what I've felt for a long time. Giroux has more offensive talent than anyone on the team, and Holmgren must find a way to put him with their best finishers.

Carter is a scorer, not a setup guy. He needs to be with guys who make plays for him, not vice versa. Richards can make plays for others, but will never be an elite center. I believe Giroux has the talent to be a #1 NHL center, but they can't find a place for him.

It's ironic, because Richards' and Carter's emergence the following season killed the Briere acquisition, and forced them to start playing guys out of position. Now that Giroux has stepped up, it's again limiting their potential up the middle.

I thought Lavy's moving Hartnell down with Giroux and JVR last night was the best move they've made to balance things out. If anyone can get Hartnell off, it's Giroux. If Leino can stick with Carter and Briere, they might have something.

But, ultimately, I sill believe Giroux has to be the #1 center for them to max their potential. I just don't think the team has the balls for that politically. Ever notice who's on the ice when they need goals at the end of the game? That's right...their #3 center.

It's not semantics. There are 95 players in the NHL with more assists than Giroux currently. He has raw talent. Whether he gets to the elite level remains to be seen. But as of right now, there is nothing elite about Giroux.
- MJL

It seems to me you're a very rearview mirror type of guy. You only seem to acknowledge what a player has done and seem unable or unwilling to use some vision and analysis to see what potential is there going forward. You can say he's not an elite passer in the NHL right now statistically, but numerous people consider his skills in this area to be elite/near elite level.

"has as much talent, vision, and brains as any elite playmaking center in the NHL. "

http://www.phinallyphilly...update-as-flyers-add-two/


"His vision on the ice was that of a young Peter Forsberg making plays you would only believe if you took a quick trip to Youtube.com"

http://thehockeywriters.c...havent-seen-anything-yet/

*Sigh*
.
- BINGO!

Bingo

The Flyers didn't get better because they have mismanaged their assets and had nothing to trade, except for key pieces of their future.

The Flyers could have added a good goalie and decent scoring wingers if they had trade Giroux, van Riemsdyk and Carter.
- Jsaquella

Frankly, I think if trading JVR or Giroux would land the Flyers a permanent long term solution in goal, then that's a trade they had to make. As I've been saying for years, until the Flyers get serious about upgrading their goaltending, they will be hard pressed to beat the Pens in a 7 game series (or the Caps or Devils).

By the way, Giroux is a nice young player, but I agree the hyperbole surrounding him on this site gets to be a bit much. He's miscast in a 3rd line role, especially when compared to Jordan Staal, who doesn't get near the hype, but is a fantastic penalty killer and who IMHO is already one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Future Selke winner.

It seems to me you're a very rearview mirror type of guy. You only seem to acknowledge what a player has done and seem unable or unwilling to use some vision and analysis to see what potential is there going forward. You can say he's not an elite passer in the NHL right now statistically, but numerous people consider his skills in this area to be elite/near elite level.

"has as much talent, vision, and brains as any elite playmaking center in the NHL. "

http://www.phinallyphilly...update-as-flyers-add-two/


"His vision on the ice was that of a young Peter Forsberg making plays you would only believe if you took a quick trip to Youtube.com"

http://thehockeywriters.c...havent-seen-anything-yet/

- exlund

You can find youtube highlights for every player in the NHL. A couple of Hockey writers making statements doesn't make it so. He's not even the best playmaker on his team right now. He's 95th in the NHL in assists currently. He's no where near elite yet. Maybe in the future, but not now. It's not rearview, it's current. You call me a rearview mirror guy and yet you post an article from 2009.
Potential is just that. It's not reality, until it happens. Alexandre Daigle was considered elite also. When and if Giroux reaches the elite level, then I'll call him elite. Calling him elite now just isn't factual.

By the way, Giroux is a nice young player, but I agree the hyperbole surrounding him on this site gets to be a bit much. He's miscast in a 3rd line role, especially when compared to Jordan Staal, who doesn't get near the hype, but is a fantastic penalty killer and who IMHO is already one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Future Selke winner.
- Emperor Filonius

I agree, right now Giroux is overrated by most Flyers fans. Maybe not in the future, but definitely right now. And if the Pens offered Staal for Giroux right now, I'd say deal. He's better suited to that lower line Center role. Ideally if I could get a similar young Winger of similar potential for Giroux with size, I'd make that deal. Someone like Chris Stewart in Colorado.

holy flyers boner

It seems to me you're a very rearview mirror type of guy. You only seem to acknowledge what a player has done and seem unable or unwilling to use some vision and analysis to see what potential is there going forward. You can say he's not an elite passer in the NHL right now statistically, but numerous people consider his skills in this area to be elite/near elite level.

"has as much talent, vision, and brains as any elite playmaking center in the NHL. "

http://www.phinallyphilly...update-as-flyers-add-two/


"His vision on the ice was that of a young Peter Forsberg making plays you would only believe if you took a quick trip to Youtube.com"

http://thehockeywriters.c...havent-seen-anything-yet/





- exlund

Dude, you have two links to a pair of guys that are beat writers for the Flyers......... you think they may be a bit bias??

Dude, you have two links to a pair of guys that are beat writers for the Flyers......... you think they may be a bit bias??



- faceto27

If those two writers wrote it then it has to be true. If Giroux has a highlite on YouTube then he must be elite.

holy flyers boner
- eichiefs9

RIP

Where did I say that it would assure a Cup? They'll be closer to winning a cup a few years from now if they had kept the #1 picks and Sbisa.
- MJL

Firstly, you don't know that for certain so you can't say that with a high degree of accuracy...once can also make a good argument that they're closer to winning a Cup now and in the next year or two, with Pronger than they would have been if they had kept Lupul, Sbisa and the picks.

If they don't win the Cup, with Pronger, it's a bad deal. It's that simple.
- MJL

There's no way to prove that not doing the Pronger trade would have eventually given the team a better chance at a Cup than they have now and over the next 2-3 years......you take away Chris Pronger and add what? Lupul (horrible contract, headed for disc injury, season in doubt), Sbisa, enjoying his time in the minors/can't even beat Eminger out for a spot on the big club, and picks that may or may not help you in a few years? So, to call the deal bad if a Cup isn't won from it isn't necessarily true. With what's in place in Pitts, Chicago and Washington, I think you'd be hard pressed to build a team that looks like it would measure up better on paper to those guys, even if had you saved the picks and kept Lupul and Sbisa..all of that talk is conjecture and we'll just never know so you can't make conlusions based on what might have happened...by contrast, I think it can be said with more of a degree of certainty that the team is better right now and will be next year for having Pronger in the fold versus having Lupul, Spisa and the picks...what happens beyond the next 2-3 years is another story. Homer will have to earn his money and show he can keep the team in the playoff mix.

It gave up youth and the future to win now. As well as further hamstringing the Cap. If you don't win now, it's a bad deal. You don't make that deal just to be a good team and to be competitive. He was brought in to be the so called "missing peice".
- MJL

Look, at some point you take stock of what you've built and if you think you have a shot, you spend some of your future and make some moves to try and improve your chances...Pronger achieves that. If they can't beat the Pens/Caps/Hawks/Sharks/Wings or wheover, it doesn't mean it did't improve the team or that the trade was a bad one, per se...I'd say if they make the playoffs for a few years, and are a competitive team with chance to steal a series from a favorite or two, then the Pronger trade was a success...it indicates that they were about as close as they were going to get to a chance at the Cup...if they miss the playoffs, that's another story... then, I think it can be said that it was an obvious a miscalculation and thus more of a bad move (hindsight being 20/20 and all).

The Flyers already went though their period of hitting rock bottom a few seasons ago, they were the worst, got their lottery pick in Kane, ahem... I mean, JVR, they turned seller and made some good trades for the future (Zhitnik for Coburn, the Foppa to Nashville deal) and added some top free agent talent...it worked...they turned things around short order and made it to the conference finals...it's not unreasonable, given that, to continue to add pieces if you think you can improve...you keep waiting and "building for the future" with youth, whose to say you would ever build a team (and keep it together) that's more able to compete with the likes of Pens, Caps, Hawks? The team still has youth.. the two youngest core members of the team are JVR (20) and Giroux (22)...Richards, Carter, Leino, Coburn, Carle, Parent, Bart, Powe, Carcillo, Hartnell in their mid 20s...Gagne just turned 30. The only guys in the over 30 crew are Briere, Pronger, Timonen and Lappy and Ash. I think the team is in position to be in the playoff mix for a few years to come and given the competition out there, I think that's really all I can ask for as a fan, for them to be in the mix, to be in position to maybe get lucky and take a series or two from the Pens or Caps in hopes they can grab a Cup one of these years.

You can find youtube highlights for every player in the NHL. A couple of Hockey writers making statements doesn't make it so. He's not even the best playmaker on his team right now. He's 95th in the NHL in assists currently. He's no where near elite yet. Maybe in the future, but not now. It's not rearview, it's current. You call me a rearview mirror guy and yet you post an article from 2009.
Potential is just that. It's not reality, until it happens. Alexandre Daigle was considered elite also. When and if Giroux reaches the elite level, then I'll call him elite. Calling him elite now just isn't factual.
- MJL

Look, if a bunch of people think he has elite level skills, it's their right to do so...why does your opinion trump theirs and be the only one that's factual? We don't have to be talking about it in the literal sense...when Ek said Giroux "is Marc Savard" well, no he's not. Savard (an elite level passer) far outproduces him at this point (when healthy)...but he (Ek) was making a statement about a young player who he thinks has those same elite level skills...it wasn't meant to be literal, as in Giroux is using his Forsbergian-like vision and Savardian passing to tear up the league right now...it just means he has that type of ability and could someday use it to do something akin to what those guys have done.

While Giroux, at 22 yrs old, has yet to fully exploit his high end skillset to put up big numbers in the NHL, it doesn't mean he doesn't posess that high-end, or "elite" skillset...it takes time for young players to take advantage of their skills...there are apparently many others out there who are able to appreciate some of the elite level skills he's flashed before he actually emerges as a high point scorer in the league. I made the point that Giroux could benefit from better linemates...playing with the likes of say, Gagne and Briere could be a real boon to his performance as he continues to develop in the NHL.

Frankly, I think if trading JVR or Giroux would land the Flyers a permanent long term solution in goal, then that's a trade they had to make. As I've been saying for years, until the Flyers get serious about upgrading their goaltending, they will be hard pressed to beat the Pens in a 7 game series (or the Caps or Devils).

By the way, Giroux is a nice young player, but I agree the hyperbole surrounding him on this site gets to be a bit much. He's miscast in a 3rd line role, especially when compared to Jordan Staal, who doesn't get near the hype, but is a fantastic penalty killer and who IMHO is already one of the best defensive forwards in the game. Future Selke winner.
- Emperor Filonius

I'm sure that trading JvR or Giroux would land a good goalie, But I wouldn't trade either unless it was for a goalie that could provide a long term solution.

No way in Hell do I move either for a guy like Vokoun. Price or Halak? Perhaps.

I agree on Giroux. He's a good, creative player. He's got a lot of talent and potential, but he's not elite yet, and may never be. He's absolutely miscast as a third liner. The problem there is, he's not playing ahead of Carter or Richards at center and he's not as effective when he's on a wing.

I'm sure that trading JvR or Giroux would land a good goalie, But I wouldn't trade either unless it was for a goalie that could provide a long term solution.

No way in Hell do I move either for a guy like Vokoun. Price or Halak? Perhaps.

I agree on Giroux. He's a good, creative player. He's got a lot of talent and potential, but he's not elite yet, and may never be. He's absolutely miscast as a third liner. The problem there is, he's not playing ahead of Carter or Richards at center and he's not as effective when he's on a wing.
- Jsaquella

I agree, Giroux is not currently an elite player, but I and some others do believe he posesses some elite-level skills...(there's a difference).

I agree, Giroux is not currently an elite player, but I and some others do believe he posesses some elite-level skills...(there's a difference).
- exlund

He sees the ice very well, is creative and shows excellent passing touch. I think long term, JvR will be a better player.

Eklund: So Who Didn't Get Better? (on the Flames and Flyers)
- Eklund

thanks for the update, mr. eklund.

"Grabbing Toskala as well is a testament to how ridiculously tight the West has become. The Flames need to give Kipper some rest and they can't afford to lose a single point"

so... why did they get Toskala? Probably would have been better off sending Boyd our way for MacDonald

"Grabbing Toskala as well is a testament to how ridiculously tight the West has become. The Flames need to give Kipper some rest and they can't afford to lose a single point"

so... why did they get Toskala? Probably would have been better off sending Boyd our way for MacDonald
- Feeling Glucky?

Seriously though... Joey MacDonald is a better goalie than Toskala... The Ducks actually improved their goaltending situation...

Just WTF is up with Sutter? Trying to build the Leafs-West?

Seriously though... Joey MacDonald is a better goalie than Toskala... The Ducks actually improved their goaltending situation...

Just WTF is up with Sutter? Trying to build the Leafs-West?
- SofaKingBored

I'm kinda surprised he didn't just give us Boyd for Wallin or something stupid like that

You can find youtube highlights for every player in the NHL. A couple of Hockey writers making statements doesn't make it so. He's not even the best playmaker on his team right now. He's 95th in the NHL in assists currently. He's no where near elite yet. Maybe in the future, but not now. It's not rearview, it's current. You call me a rearview mirror guy and yet you post an article from 2009.
Potential is just that. It's not reality, until it happens. Alexandre Daigle was considered elite also. When and if Giroux reaches the elite level, then I'll call him elite. Calling him elite now just isn't factual.
- MJL

Nobody said he was elite now. What was said is that he could be if partnered with their best finishers. If you have watched the Flyers regularly and still believe he's not their best playmaker, then we're just watching two different things. Frankly, it's not even close. While he's prone to the occasional bad turnover at his own blue line, the fact is that whenever this guy acquires possession of the puck, seven times out of ten something positive happens, and of those seven many create opportunities that most guys in the NHL couldn't even approach with twice the time to make them.

The bottom line is that Giroux was far and away the Flyers' best player in the Penguins series last year, at 21 years old against the best team in the league. Further, he made the kinds of plays that upstaged the game itself. Have you watched those highlights? Who in the hell other than top tier players has made plays like that in recent years, let alone in the playoffs? For as many flashes in the pan sports have produced over history, there have been just as many guys whose paths have been blocked and needed a trade, defection, demotion, or injury to give them a chance. I believe Giroux is the latter. I would have traded Carter for a stud winger or a top level goalie under contract and a young winger, but I think no goalie fit that description.

Dude, you have two links to a pair of guys that are beat writers for the Flyers......... you think they may be a bit bias??



- faceto27

You call this biased? Please...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG4DelCSvFM