In regards to the 30 goal seasons, he's had one more 30 goal season in eight seasons compared to Carter's five.

As for the assists, that only reinforces my point. Positional awareness lends itself to assists, and generates offense from a defensive sensibility. By playing the other side of the game well, he enables those at the wing to do more offensively. Simply put, Pavel's defense makes the offensive players around him better.

My point isn't that he or Carter is paid only to play defense, it's that defense does not comprise 10% of either of their salaries, if it even makes sense to break down their pay that way.
- BulliesPhan87

I understand what you are trying to get at. I do. I am also not trying to disparage the notion that being a heady two way player wont get you a contract. HOWEVER, the guys that make the big bucks are the ones who put up the points. If Homer knew now that for the next 5 seasons Carter wouldnt eclipse 30 goals or 60 points, he wouldnt be giving him oodles of money, yet if he knew Carter would put up 40+ goals, and 80-100 points he would be saying, oh crap, i need to clear some serious space.

Edit: as for Datsyuks assists, thats because he is one of the most gifted play makers in the game, and has offensive awareness that is exceeded by only a few elite players.

I agree with you that goalie the goalies should have been addressed. Especially if we managed to bring in Shelley for 1.2 and Walker for 1.7. I would much rather have spent that money (2.9) on a goalie. However, if Leighton is able to duplicate last seasons success outside of the cup finals, we will be MUCH better. Do i think it was a case of luck for Leighton? No, what i think is that he fits very well with the team, and sometimes thats better then having the best goalie in the world. The team seems to play a different game when he is in net. They trust him, and it shows. We made our defense 100 times better then last season. Again, all i can do is cheer for the flyers, and thats exactly what i plan on doing.
- jak521

It's true the team played well in front of him. (and perhaps for him?)
I'm happy to keep him but not as the only option. Boucher is not a plan B and Leighton has not show success in the past to warrant being handed the reigns.

or, pavel is an extremely talented player and usually plays with zetterberg. enough with the positional awareness. its not why he has 50+ assists most years. its because he is a great passer/playmaker. betts has great positional awareness but doesnt have great assist numbers.
- flyershockey

Blair Betts has nothing to do with this. He's an aging shut down forward who lacks speed, of cours he's not terribly effective in their zone.

Aside from that, I'll leave it, in general, at "I disagree".

Exactly. When Carter isn't actually scoring a goal, and instead is playing away from the puck, or playing on the PK,he's not doing what he's paid to do. That's insubordination and he should immediately be benched.
- MJL

Funny thing.

They rip Carter for being streaky yet last season he went 3+ games with out a point 5 times.

Richards went 3+ games with out a point 6 times.

Yet Carter is the streaky one not Richards!

Richards is Utley and Carter is Howard.

No matter what Carter and Howard do it's still not good enough, very odd.

It's true the team played well in front of him. (and perhaps for him?)
I'm happy to keep him but not as the only option. Boucher is not a plan B and Leighton has not show success in the past to warrant being handed the reigns.
- coffee junkie

I agree, but again, it got us to a cup last season. Also, the weakest part of our team last year wasnt the goalie, but the 3rd defensive pair in my mind.

Combine that with the fact that our first line had a combined 3 healthy feet, and you start to think WHAT IF!

id be perfectly ok with turco or theodore at the right price. i dont think they are huge upgrades but definitely an upgrade with a track record. i dont think ellis or mason were the answer though. neither of them have proven anything either. im still not ready to completely give up on leighton. it could be he was overwhelmed by the spotlight, but before that, regular season and playoffs, he was solid if not above average most of the time. that has to count for something.
- flyershockey

I agree I would much much prefer to keep Leighton and waive Boucher...but Leighton makes more then Boucher and we need cap space to sign another goalie so I would reluctantly say ok to giving up on Leighton if it came down to it.

It's true the team played well in front of him. (and perhaps for him?)
I'm happy to keep him but not as the only option. Boucher is not a plan B and Leighton has not show success in the past to warrant being handed the reigns.
- coffee junkie

With the Flyers defense and forwards playing smart two way hockey I see Leighton as this years Craig Anderson. He will have some very good numbers.

Hopefully the confidence will allow his game to grow.

I'm pumped for the Flyers this coming season.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Go Flyers

Funny thing.

They rip Carter for being streaky yet last season he went 3+ games with out a point 5 times.

Richards went 3+ games with out a point 6 times.

Yet Carter is the streaky one not Richards!

Richards is Utley and Carter is Howard.

No matter what Carter and Howard do it's still not good enough, very odd.
- Buts16

Again, my point isnt related to Carters play specifically, but the notion that his offensive contributions are not his PRIMARY money maker.


EDIT: And just for the record, i think Carter is our best offensive player

I agree I would much much prefer to keep Leighton and waive Boucher...but Leighton makes more then Boucher and we need cap space to sign another goalie so I would reluctantly say ok to giving up on Leighton if it came down to it.
- coffee junkie

i dont see any way that leighton is gone. hes 29 coming off the best hockey he has ever played, and even though most think hes overpaid at 1.5 mil, its a very reasonable number for a goalie with 3 shutouts in an eastern conference final. at this point it looks like a turco or theodore will most likely be there once the season starts unless there is an injury somewhere. my guess is they are going to give leighton his shot, which i think he deserves.

Again, my point isnt related to Carters play specifically, but the notion that his offensive contributions are not his PRIMARY money maker.
- jak521

That wasn't the argument. It was suggested Carter is paid 90% of the money for offense. I think that's ridiculous. As a forward obviously his primary function is offense, but to suggest his defense is only 10% of his value is silly.

I agree, but again, it got us to a cup last season. Also, the weakest part of our team last year wasnt the goalie, but the 3rd defensive pair in my mind.

Combine that with the fact that our first line had a combined 3 healthy feet, and you start to think WHAT IF!
- jak521

I don't want to play the what if game. because what if Halak didn't single handedly take out the two best teams form the east? etc.

I agree, the goalie wasn;t the biggest factor last year but on paper, IMHO, I believe it was 3rd pairing D then Goalie for this off-season. Homer went overkill on one of those areas and hasn't (yet) addressed the other.

With the Flyers defense and forwards playing smart two way hockey I see Leighton as this years Craig Anderson. He will have some very good numbers.

Hopefully the confidence will allow his game to grow.

I'm pumped for the Flyers this coming season.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Go Flyers
- Buts16

I do appreciate your optimism.

Again, my point isnt related to Carters play specifically, but the notion that his offensive contributions are not his PRIMARY money maker.
- jak521

Not directed at you, I was just making a post because I was bored.

I agree they pay him big money to score but when your getting big money you better do the other things as well. Carter had an off season but his and almost everybody's standards, well if 33 goals is an off season then he's a hell of a player.

Carter does the other things well.

i dont see any way that leighton is gone. hes 29 coming off the best hockey he has ever played, and even though most think hes overpaid at 1.5 mil, its a very reasonable number for a goalie with 3 shutouts in an eastern conference final. at this point it looks like a turco or theodore will most likely be there once the season starts unless there is an injury somewhere. my guess is they are going to give leighton his shot, which i think he deserves.
- flyershockey

I'm not disagreeing with you.

That wasn't the argument. It was suggested Carter is paid 90% of the money for offense. I think that's ridiculous. As a forward obviously his primary function is offense, but to suggest his defense is only 10% of his value is silly.
- BulliesPhan87

That is extremely silly, but i never read that. My posts, which were replied to as well, were just suggesting that if someone doesnt produce offense, normally they arent paid like those who do, defensive ability aside.

Blair Betts is 3 or 4 years younger then danny briere, and 100 times the better defensive forward. However, he makes nearly 6 million dollars less a season.

I do appreciate your optimism.
- coffee junkie

The team on paper right now is much better IMO then the team we saw last season and in the playoffs.

I don't see another team with depth of the top 9 forwards or top 6 defense the Flyers have.

I'm pumped for this upcoming season.

Not directed at you, I was just making a post because I was bored.

I agree they pay him big money to score but when your getting big money you better do the other things as well. Carter had an off season but his and almost everybody's standards, well if 33 goals is an off season then he's a hell of a player.

Carter does the other things well.
- Buts16

if carter is average to below average defensively, does he still make $4.5 mil on his contract? my argument would be yes, hence 90% of his paycheck is related to his offensive ability. its oversimplifying things probably but i think illustrates my point.

Not directed at you, I was just making a post because I was bored.

I agree they pay him big money to score but when your getting big money you better do the other things as well. Carter had an off season but his and almost everybody's standards, well if 33 goals is an off season then he's a hell of a player.

Carter does the other things well.
- Buts16

Exactly.

Again, my point isnt related to Carters play specifically, but the notion that his offensive contributions are not his PRIMARY money maker.


EDIT: And just for the record, i think Carter is our best offensive player
- jak521

Just for the record, your a smart man

i dont see any way that leighton is gone. hes 29 coming off the best hockey he has ever played, and even though most think hes overpaid at 1.5 mil, its a very reasonable number for a goalie with 3 shutouts in an eastern conference final. at this point it looks like a turco or theodore will most likely be there once the season starts unless there is an injury somewhere. my guess is they are going to give leighton his shot, which i think he deserves.
- flyershockey

I agree with everything said about Leighton. Is $1.5mil overpaying? Sure, just a little. If I was Holgren, I would've offered him a cool million per season. I'd say he earned that and a shot to earn the reins.

The team on paper right now is much better IMO then the team we saw last season and in the playoffs.

I don't see another team with depth of the top 9 forwards or top 6 defense the Flyers have.

I'm pumped for this upcoming season.
- Buts16

And to think... we have cap space

I agree with everything said about Leighton. Is $1.5mil overpaying? Sure, just a little. If I was Holgren, I would've offered him a cool million per season. I'd say he earned that and a shot to earn the reins.
- BulliesPhan87

i feel like homer threw him somewhat of a bone because he made some ridiculously low number last year. when talking i feel like he said fine, hes an extra 500k for the next 2 years for your effort last year.

Yup, my opinion.

So say jeff carter scores 20 goals next year, adds 30 assists, but has the best defensive season of his career... you still paying him his 7 mil
- jak521

We can debate that if you wish. He'll get paid less, but he'll still be paid for everything he brings to the table as a player, and not just for his goal scoring.

if carter is average to below average defensively, does he still make $4.5 mil on his contract? my argument would be yes, hence 90% of his paycheck is related to his offensive ability. its oversimplifying things probably but i think illustrates my point.
- flyershockey

It's a tough arguement.

Briere is not good defensively but he makes $6.5 million but he's paid to be a playoff warrior which he is.

The Flyers are very lucky to have two players like Carter and Richards who are both very good offensively and defensively.

And to think... we have cap space
- jak521

With 14 forwards and 8 D-men and 2 goalies signed

That's bizarre