Karlsson w. 2 takeaways- 1 in the offensive zone, neither while OV was on the ice.
- Schenn-Sational!

He was on the ice for the second one.

EDIT - my mistake, Ovechkin was not on the ice for either.

I am not sure what causes people to want to knock the young guys. I don't mind comparing young guys in terms of talent when trades or deals are involved but it does not make sense not to give the kid a chance. Breaking into this league involves learning their trade and they will have some good days and some days where they struggle.

On the other hand, when you put too high an expectation on a kid, you set him up to fail. Perhaps that is more a problem of Canadian fans who are able to follow the careers of kids at the junior level and think they should be able to jump to the NHL level and continue at the same level of performance.
- spatso

Just let the leaf fans who think this way have their day in the sun.

The leafs have beaten the 22nd, 26th, 27th and 29th teams overall (lost to the 3rd overall) and might be a little premature in their thinking the leafs are playoff bound this season. They have not had a lot to get excited about since the spring of 2004, the last time a playoff game was played in toronto.

I am not sure what causes people to want to knock the young guys. I don't mind comparing young guys in terms of talent when trades or deals are involved but it does not make sense not to give the kid a chance. Breaking into this league involves learning their trade and they will have some good days and some days where they struggle.

On the other hand, when you put too high an expectation on a kid, you set him up to fail. Perhaps that is more a problem of Canadian fans who are able to follow the careers of kids at the junior level and think they should be able to jump to the NHL level and continue at the same level of performance.
- spatso

That's odd, given how much you do it with respect to Leafs youngsters.

Nobody is slagging Karlsson, either, just tearing through the bs you and dopps are laying down, in a thread that has nothing to do with the Karlsson, and very little to do with the sens in general.

He was on the ice for the second one.

EDIT - my mistake, Ovechkin was not on the ice for either.
- prock

you're wrong and the source that you are citing is wrong. I watched the game and saw Karlsson force OV to turnover the puck to him 2 or 3 times, and then Karlsson started a counter attack.

I watched the game, you did not.

It's just so very strange that, the game scorers saw things so differently than Sens fans, and credited Karlsson with only 2 takeaways the entire game. One of them while Ovechkin wasn't even on the ice. So, it seems to be that those that are paid to maintain scoresheets, and that for a living, seem to have missed Karlsson repeatedly stripping Ovechkin of the puck, as Sens fans seem to have seen it.
- prock

stats like that don't always show the whole picture as its and interpretive stat and differs based on arena.

Not that karlsson is a shutdown guy, but im sure he had a little bit to do with ovechkin not scoring. I missed the game myself but heard from a few (including leaf fans) that karlsson played him well.

Just let the leaf fans who think this way have their day in the sun.

The leafs have beaten the 22nd, 26th, 27th and 29th teams overall (lost to the 3rd overall) and might be a little premature in their thinking the leafs are playoff bound this season. They have not had a lot to get excited about since the spring of 2004, the last time a playoff game was played in toronto.
- Doppleganger

I am not sure why you feel we are "knocking the young guys". Rather, I'm looking at claims that Sens fans are making, and logically looking at whether this may be their bias showing.

So far, we have seen Sens fans claim that Karlsson wouldn't let Ovechkin past the blueline. He had 7 shots on net, a season high. His three shots on net with Karlsson on the ice alone would have been a season high. Next, they claimed those were from the outside. 6 of 7 were not. Next they claimed Karlsson repeatedly stripped Ovechkin of the puck. He was credited with 2 takeaways, one when Ovechkin was on the bench.

We're just logically looking at what Sens fans are saying, and noticing that the NHL seems to see things very differently.

stats like that don't always show the whole picture as its and interpretive stat and differs based on arena.

Not that karlsson is a shutdown guy, but im sure he had a little bit to do with ovechkin not scoring. I missed the game myself but heard from a few (including leaf fans) that karlsson played him well.
- sens rock

I see, so you're relying on your own biased interpretation, over the NHL's not so biased interpretation.

I understand why you might want to do that.

you're wrong and the source that you are citing is wrong. I watched the game and saw Karlsson force OV to turnover the puck to him 2 or 3 times, and then Karlsson started a counter attack.

I watched the game, you did not.
- Doppleganger

Gotcha, NHL.com is wrong. I see.

you're wrong and the source that you are citing is wrong. I watched the game and saw Karlsson force OV to turnover the puck to him 2 or 3 times, and then Karlsson started a counter attack.

I watched the game, you did not.
- Doppleganger

Ovechkin credited with zero giveaways.

I see, so you're relying on your own biased interpretation, over the NHL's not so biased interpretation.

I understand why you might want to do that.
- prock

i don't think its biased to think that karlsson's play had a bit to do with ovie not scoring. im not saying he was the primary factor in the least.

i said i didn't see the game, but the stats and people's word are on opposite sides of the spectrum and i think he falls somewhere in between.

I am not sure why you feel we are "knocking the young guys". Rather, I'm looking at claims that Sens fans are making, and logically looking at whether this may be their bias showing.

So far, we have seen Sens fans claim that Karlsson wouldn't let Ovechkin past the blueline. He had 7 shots on net, a season high. His three shots on net with Karlsson on the ice alone would have been a season high. Next, they claimed those were from the outside. 6 of 7 were not. Next they claimed Karlsson repeatedly stripped Ovechkin of the puck. He was credited with 2 takeaways, one when Ovechkin was on the bench.

We're just logically looking at what Sens fans are saying, and noticing that the NHL seems to see things very differently.
- prock

Again, you did not watch the game (Ott vs Wash), and cannot comment on the play of anyone who participated. I watched the game in it's entirety, and it was clear that OV was never a scoring threat in the game, as he did not once have a quality scoring chance. Karlsson was perhaps the best Senator on the ice that night, and was a major factor in keeping OV off the scoresheet.

You can cite all the stats you want, but you did not see the game.

Funny how you dismiss "Stats" when someone is trying to make a point about Kadri's first 17 games in the NHL, when a Columnist whose job it is to watch and cover all the leafs games, did so.................but now when you've not watched the game being discussed you are relying 100% on stats, and try to tell us who watched the game, that what we saw happen did not.

Can you not see how you can't have it both ways?

i don't think its biased to think that karlsson's play had a bit to do with ovie not scoring. im not saying he was the primary factor in the least.

i said i didn't see the game, but the stats and people's word are on opposite sides of the spectrum and i think he falls somewhere in between.
- sens rock

That is pretty fair. Obviously there are going to be things that stats won't show. However, claims like "he couldn't get past the blueline when Karlsson was on the ice", "all off Ovechkin's shots were from the outside", "Karlsson repeated stripped Ovechkin of the puck", Karlsson forced Ovechkin to turn the puck over many times", are quite clearly untrue, according to the NHL. So, one should be wary on making claims that go against what those who are paid to interpret a game are saying happened.

I am not sure why you feel we are "knocking the young guys". Rather, I'm looking at claims that Sens fans are making, and logically looking at whether this may be their bias showing.

So far, we have seen Sens fans claim that Karlsson wouldn't let Ovechkin past the blueline. He had 7 shots on net, a season high. His three shots on net with Karlsson on the ice alone would have been a season high. Next, they claimed those were from the outside. 6 of 7 were not. Next they claimed Karlsson repeatedly stripped Ovechkin of the puck. He was credited with 2 takeaways, one when Ovechkin was on the bench.

We're just logically looking at what Sens fans are saying, and noticing that the NHL seems to see things very differently.
- prock

Don't know how you do it but find the game and watch it. It was a remarkable demonstration by the kid who frustrated Ovehkin all night. The fact that you kind find that in the interpretive data is your problem. Search it out, watch it and I am sure your opinion might be altered by some reality.

That is pretty fair. Obviously there are going to be things that stats won't show. However, claims like "he couldn't get past the blueline when Karlsson was on the ice", "all off Ovechkin's shots were from the outside", "Karlsson repeated stripped Ovechkin of the puck", Karlsson forced Ovechkin to turn the puck over many times", are quite clearly untrue, according to the NHL. So, one should be wary on making claims that go against what those who are paid to interpret a game are saying happened.
- prock

giveaway and takeaway stats are ambiguous and known to vary greatly from arena to arena. same with hits. while they shows trends over the course of a season, on a game by game basis they are hard to rely on.

i don't think karlsson turned into chara and totally shut down ovie. it was a product of both of their players (karlsson better than norm and ovie worse than norm) that lead to him goaless. If ovechkin was at the top of his game i don't think karlsson would have had a chance at stopping him no matter how well he way playing.

That is pretty fair. Obviously there are going to be things that stats won't show. However, claims like "he couldn't get past the blueline when Karlsson was on the ice", "all off Ovechkin's shots were from the outside", "Karlsson repeated stripped Ovechkin of the puck", Karlsson forced Ovechkin to turn the puck over many times", are quite clearly untrue, according to the NHL. So, one should be wary on making claims that go against what those who are paid to interpret a game are saying happened.
- prock

So now you believe "Stats" but not when Kadri's first 17 NHL games showed him to be getting top 6 minutes and did not score a single goal.

You're like those who did not bother to vote in the past election, who've forfeited their right to complain about the Government.....................you did not see the game, so should just keep you biased opinions to yourself and take the opinions of those who did, with a little more weight.

Ever notice that. for example, I don't comments on leafs games??? It's because the only ones I see are the six they play against the Senators.

You should do the same.

Don't know how you do it but find the game and watch it. It was a remarkable demonstration by the kid who frustrated Ovehkin all night. The fact that you kind find that in the interpretive data is your problem. Search it out, watch it and I am sure your opinion might be altered by some reality.
- spatso

Perhaps you as well should contact the NHL and enlighten them as to the reality of the games that they run.

So now you believe "Stats" but not when Kadri's first 17 NHL games showed him to be getting top 6 minutes and did not score a single goal.

You're like those who did not bother to vote in the past election, who've forfeited their right to complain about the Government.....................you did not see the game, so should just keep you biased opinions to yourself and take the opinions of those who did, with a little more weight.
- Doppleganger

I can understand why you might want to ignore that the stats disagree with what the columnist said, as you're pinning your theories on it, however, I assure you, I will happily provide stats that show you are wrong.

stats like that don't always show the whole picture as its and interpretive stat and differs based on arena.

Not that karlsson is a shutdown guy, but im sure he had a little bit to do with ovechkin not scoring. I missed the game myself but heard from a few (including leaf fans) that karlsson played him well.
- sens rock

Point being, "shutting down" a guy who's ice cold, while actually allowing him more shots on net than he's had vs. any other team isn't exactly proof positive of improving defensive play. The whole argument reminds me of this:


(@4:30)

So now you believe "Stats" but not when Kadri's first 17 NHL games showed him to be getting top 6 minutes and did not score a single goal.

You're like those who did not bother to vote in the past election, who've forfeited their right to complain about the Government.....................you did not see the game, so should just keep you biased opinions to yourself and take the opinions of those who did, with a little more weight.

Ever notice that. for example, I don't comments on leafs games??? It's because the only ones I see are the six they play against the Senators.

You should do the same.
- Doppleganger

you were arguing first line minutes with kessel over the 17 games quoting a single news article as your source. when proven wrong all you could do was post a email address and tell us to take it up with the writer.

Point being, "shutting down" a guy who's ice cold, while actually allowing him more shots on net than he's had vs. any other team isn't exactly proof positive of improving defensive play. The whole argument reminds me of this:

- Schenn-Sational!

As you did not see the game, you cannot comment on what you did not see.

That's odd, given how much you do it with respect to Leafs youngsters.

Nobody is slagging Karlsson, either, just tearing through the bs you and dopps are laying down, in a thread that has nothing to do with the Karlsson, and very little to do with the sens in general.
- Schenn-Sational!

I don't have any problem with the kids. My problem is the fans and media who want to hype a kid before he is ready. People just don't understand the problems that it causes when some of the idiots want to proclaim Joe Colborne as the next great Leaf player. I am fine with comparing kids to kids. I am even okay hyping prospects as prospects, my problem is when the fans turn on the kid and blame him for not meeting their false expectations. My best example is Kessel. I have always liked Kessel, the player. I hated the deal and I still hate the deal. Kessel is off to a great start, as are the Leafs, but things will cool off they always do. Kessel is a streak player, a lot of top scorers are, they tend to score in bunches. When he goes through a down period watch how many people are quick to jump on him just like your beginning to hear with Schenn since he signed his contract.

Sometimes I will be critical of an individual player but I try to keep objective and to stay positive, especially in terms of the younger player. If I knock a player too much I always feel unhappy about it later. For example, I think the Leafs picked the wrong guy when they took Kadri. I did not sign on to all the hype around his elevation as a future Leaf superstar. I tried to be critical of the fans and media without being directly critical of the kid. So, now the whiners are starting to turn on him and I feel obliged to be supportive of him. It is the fans that escalated the expectations. I think that same group is doing something similar with Gardiner. The kid is learning to play the NHL game and people want him to be an outstanding player immediatly. If he is going to succeed he needs to play. And, if he plays he will make rookie mistakes.

As you did not see the game, you cannot comment on what you did not see.
- Doppleganger

I can comment on what the stat keepers saw, which was OV getting more chances in this game than any other, and Karlsson registering 0 takeaways on OV.

As you did not see the game, you cannot comment on what you did not see.
- Doppleganger

Do you believe that those that are paid to interpret the game of hockey, and put together the score sheet, are also not at liberty to comment?

Again, I suggest that you contact the NHL, as it is them you seem to disagree with. We are merely relaying to you what those that are paid to interpret the game of hockey have said.

As you did not see the game, you cannot comment on what you did not see.
- Doppleganger

such a lame arguement. nobody sees that many games but get ideas on how players are playing based on stats, trends and media.