I think it started around Wednesday @ 1:58 PM ET.
- Doppleganger

For those of us that can read, and comprehend, that would actually be Wednesday @ 1:46.

For those of us that can read, and comprehend, that would actually be Wednesday @ 1:46.
- prock

he saw it at 1:58 WITH HIS OWN EYES

he saw it at 1:58 WITH HIS OWN EYES
- Schenn-Sational!

Same eyes he saw Karlsson steal the puck from Ovechkin, over, and over, and over again.

Same eyes he saw Karlsson steal the puck from Ovechkin, over, and over, and over again.
- prock

I don't think Karlsson ever let OV out of Washington's end. Just blocked him off like a (frank)ing phalanx.

I don't think Karlsson ever let OV out of Washington's end. Just blocked him off like a (frank)ing phalanx.
- Schenn-Sational!

To be honest, the thing I'm completely puzzled about is how he could ever steal the puck from Ovechkin, when he actually had possession of the puck every second he was on the ice. I mean, how do you steal what you already have?

No, you've claimed that it's true.



At that point, it becomes your claim as well.

Nice try though.
- prock

Nice try at spin. I never claimed that I watched the 17 games, which is what the poster I responding to claimed.

The only time I see a leaf game, is when they play the Senators.

When I referenced the claim made by the columnist (that Kadri played an average of 17 minutes a game ) you and other challenged me, and when I posted the TOI stats, it showed he played an average of 16 mins 50 seconds per game, for those 17 games.

Nice to see that you are still obsessed with Me and the Senators though.

Nice try at spin. I never claimed that I watched the 17 games, which is what the poster I responding to claimed.

The only time I see a leaf game, is when they play the Senators.

When I referenced the claim made by the columnist (that Kadri played an average of 17 minutes a game ) you and other challenged me, and when I posted the TOI stats, it showed he played an average of 16 mins 50 seconds per game, for those 17 games.

Nice to see that you are still obsessed with Me and the Senators though.

- Doppleganger

That's not what was challenged. The claim that he played 17 games on the first line was challenged, because that's untrue. Nice try on the spin though.

I think the rest of us know who is "challenged".....

I find it comical that this thread, originally about Luke Schenn and the Leafs, has now become cannon fodder for the topic of Karlson and the Sens.

Someone, somewhere, went off on a tangent, and took everyone with them.
- stuartchan

I think your comment is too cute by half. If you look carefully at the original comment it implicitly connects Schenn, Filatov and Ottawa through the draft. It is important to understand that this statement establishes an implicit triangulation. An idea simply stated for emotional impact rather than a larger idea. The unthinking reader simply accepts that the Leafs did good, they took Schenn, the Senators did bad they ended up with Filatov. It is a clever way of appearing to want to sanitize the awkwardness around Schenn's current struggles, it is actually a means to provoke frustration around the same idea. Although the initial post appears to be supportive of Schenn it is actually an attempt to invite criticism and debate around his game. The guy who started the thread is not a fan of the Leafs or of Schenn.

So, when Senator fans intervened to point out that Karlsson was their pick the hook was set. Leaf fans knew they could not withstand a direct comparison of Schenn with Karlsson. So what you saw was an antecedent willingness to attack Karlsson rather than face the awkwardness of Schenn's diminishing game. (I think he is just going through a rough patch, his game is the subject of excessive study by fans and media, he is going to be fine).

I guess that is part of my larger problem with the Kool-aid drinkers. They are always too fast to defend anything blue and white, but when it falters, even a little, they want to throw it under the bus. On the other hand, they believe that the players and successes of other teams need to be trashed for fear they may shame the Leafs. Last year, the Kool-aid drinkers were all over the Oilers. Leaf fans wanted them to be a terrible team but as they began to take shape as possibly being a strong team of the future Leaf fans shift their attention to the Senators. This kind of thinking is driven by a simple, often unconscious belief that if we can find another team worse than us, we cannot be so bad.

But next year Ottawa will likely begin to emerge as another team of the future with great young players and the Kool-aid drinkers will have to move on to another team like Montreal or Calgary in order to make them feel better about what is happening to their team. Is it not simpler just to be honest and admit that Schenn is going through a rough patch without having to throw him under the bus.

The entire matter would funny if it were not so easily predictable.

That's not what was challenged. The claim that he played 17 games on the first line was challenged, because that's untrue. Nice try on the spin though.

I think the rest of us know who is "challenged".....
- prock

I did not claim he played 17 games on the first line ( the columnist did in his article), I only referenced the 17 mins average TOI.

nice try at putting words in my mouth, and just keep on obsessing about me and the Senators.................it's really entertaining.

BTW I found this picture of you watching the Senators in the playoffs some time over the past seven years


I see you're still living in your Mom's basement still.

I did not claim he played 17 games on the first line ( the columnist did in his article), I only referenced the 17 mins average TOI.

nice try at putting words in my mouth, and just keep on obsessing about me and the Senators.................it's really entertaining.

BTW I found this picture of you watching the Senators in the playoffs some time over the past seven years


I see you're still living in your Mom's basement still.
- Doppleganger

How very grown up of you. When did they teach "challenged" people how to post images on the internet?

Please point out the reference to the author/article in this post.

No it was right, go to the Stats and add up his TOI over the 17 games, and it works out to an average of 16 minutes and 50 seconds per game. ( all times posted in another thread posting, and won't do it again just for you).

If a top six player is not averaging (about) 17 minutes a game, then who is?

Sorry that you're proven wrong.
- Doppleganger

How very grown up of you. When did they teach "challenged" people how to post images on the internet?

Please point out the reference to the author/article in this post.
- prock

No it was right, go to the Stats and add up his TOI over the 17 games, and it works out to an average of 16 minutes and 50 seconds per game. ( all times posted in another thread posting, and won't do it again just for you).

If a top six player is not averaging (about) 17 minutes a game, then who is?

Sorry that you're proven wrong.
- Doppleganger

thank you for taking the time to find my post, where I DON'T state "first line" and clearly ask about "top six" minutes.

You clearly proven me right, when I was accused of saying Kadri played on the top line, when I clearly (as you've pointed out in my quote) that I didn't.

Thank you.

You've made my point, and were very entertaining to boot. I love that you're obsessed with my opinions and comments.

thank you for taking the time to find my post, where I DON'T state "first line" and clearly ask about "top six" minutes.

You clearly proven me right, when I was accused of saying Kadri played on the top line, when I clearly (as you've pointed out in my quote) that I didn't.

Thank you.

You've made my point, and were very entertaining to boot. I love that you're obsessed with my opinions and comments.
- Doppleganger

He didn't play 17 games in the top 6. You've insisted he did. He played games on top line, bringing up his ATOI, then many more on the 3rd line, leaving his ATOI roughly around that of a second liner.

It's not hard to understand. I'm sorry it's so difficult for you.

He didn't play 17 games in the top 6. You've insisted he did. He played games on top line, bringing up his ATOI, then many more on the 3rd line, leaving his ATOI roughly around that of a second liner.

It's not hard to understand. I'm sorry it's so difficult for you.
- prock

Here is the post I made that started this disscussion.

Kadri played 17 games last November and December and played about 17 minutes per game. But he failed to score and managed only six assists.

At the end of the season he was recalled from the AHL, and averaged about 14 minutes per game on the 3rd line, and scored three goals and three assists in the last 12 games of the season.

Now that he's injured, do you think this is going to set him back in terms of securing a full time position?

Wilson is coaching for his life (new contract), and he does not have the luxury of developing players at the NHL level and if Kadri cannot start the season, and his spot is given to someone else and the team plays well, his chances of breaking into the line up might be impacted.
- Doppleganger

It's not hard to understand. I'm sorry it's so difficult for you.

Perhaps you did not read this post, but relied solely on the "Stats" .

A RESPONSE TO YOUR POST, SPATSO
truncated to save space
- spatso

I have no doubt that FirstClass was aware of the poopstorm this thread was capable of creating. His general abscence after the first page or so . But don't act like you or I aren't playing into as much as the fanatics leafs kool-aid drinkers.

It's not like leaf fans went out of their way to attack Karlsson. You made the outlandish claim that Ovechkin was completely shut down by Karlsson, and since it was so outlandish, we went to investigate. When we pointed out that the stats indicated otherwise (note: they indicated not that Karlsson was terrible, but simply that he didn't completely shut down Ovechkin, taking the puck away from him many times in the process) you accused us of bashing Karlsson to cover up disappointment in Schenn. Well, I'm not a leafs or a sens fan, and I can tell you I'm disappointed in neither and simply find it odd that no sens fan seems to find it odd that the stats say something completely different from your accounts, AND that you are unwilling to say the stats are incorrect.

I have no doubt that FirstClass was aware of the poopstorm this thread was capable of creating. His general abscence after the first page or so . But don't act like you or I aren't playing into as much as the fanatics leafs kool-aid drinkers.

It's not like leaf fans went out of their way to attack Karlsson. You made the outlandish claim that Ovechkin was completely shut down by Karlsson, and since it was so outlandish, we went to investigate. When we pointed out that the stats indicated otherwise (note: they indicated not that Karlsson was terrible, but simply that he didn't completely shut down Ovechkin, taking the puck away from him many times in the process) you accused us of bashing Karlsson to cover up disappointment in Schenn. Well, I'm not a leafs or a sens fan, and I can tell you I'm disappointed in neither and simply find it odd that no sens fan seems to find it odd that the stats say something completely different from your accounts, AND that you are unwilling to say the stats are incorrect.
- Morris

Stats do not show you what happened on the ice. How many times does someone bring up plus/minus in a thread and immediately get bashed about how inaccurate these stats are.

I watched the game and saw Karlsson force OV into losing the puck (when on the attack) a few times, then recovering the puck and turn the play around the other way creating an Ottawa offensive attack on Volkoun.

I know what I saw...............you do not.

Last night in the the first period, for example, Karlsson has a tremendous scoring chance while on the PP, but this will did not show up in the "Stats" as his shot from the point hit the post, and is not recorded as a SOG..........and if you only relied on reading stats you would never know this happened.

I have no doubt that FirstClass was aware of the poopstorm this thread was capable of creating. His general abscence after the first page or so . But don't act like you or I aren't playing into as much as the fanatics leafs kool-aid drinkers.

It's not like leaf fans went out of their way to attack Karlsson. You made the outlandish claim that Ovechkin was completely shut down by Karlsson, and since it was so outlandish, we went to investigate. When we pointed out that the stats indicated otherwise (note: they indicated not that Karlsson was terrible, but simply that he didn't completely shut down Ovechkin, taking the puck away from him many times in the process) you accused us of bashing Karlsson to cover up disappointment in Schenn. Well, I'm not a leafs or a sens fan, and I can tell you I'm disappointed in neither and simply find it odd that no sens fan seems to find it odd that the stats say something completely different from your accounts, AND that you are unwilling to say the stats are incorrect.
- Morris

Very good and very clever, I have been caught and you did your homework very well.

On your larger accusation, I have no choice but to plead guilty. When I saw that FirstClass was trying to triangulate Schenn, Filatov and Ottawa I knew he was really trying to create a backlash against Schenn. I suppose there was some mischief on my part to introduce the Karlsson factor in the way that I did. I did not think it was fair or honest when FirstClass used Schenn as a straw man. He knew that the Kool-aid drinkers would be out in force to defend him and it would only encourage attacks on Schenn by others. But, FirstClass obviously became bored with the diversion he had attempted to create and he gave up on his attempt. What you have not commented on is whether I genuinely do like Karllson or was merely trying to stimulate criticism of him by the Kool-aid drinkers. If someone signs on to the first part of your thesis, does it not logically follow that my purpose was to drive some negative reaction to the little Swedish wizard?

ps It was very clear during the game that Karllson stripped the puck from Ovechkin on several occasions. I have no idea why it did not show up in the post game data.

Stats do not show you what happened on the ice. How many times does someone bring up plus/minus in a thread and immediately get bashed about how inaccurate these stats are.

I watched the game and saw Karlsson force OV into losing the puck (when on the attack) a few times, then recovering the puck and turn the play around the other way creating an Ottawa offensive attack on Volkoun.

I know what I saw...............you do not.

Last night in the the first period, for example, Karlsson has a tremendous scoring chance while on the PP, but this will did not show up in the "Stats" as his shot from the point hit the post, and is not recorded as a SOG..........and if you only relied on reading stats you would never know this happened.
- Doppleganger

The thing is, plus/minus is a misleading stat when you're trying to prove someone is great defensively for example. It is not a misleading stat if you're trying to say someone was on the ice for 5 more even strength goals scored than goals against. If you claim that, and their +/- is not +5, then somethings gotta give.

A takeaway or a giveaway is something that either happened, or didn't. You say that there were many takeaways that occurred, and giveaways specifically by Ovechkin, but neither is reflected in the stats. I'm not asking you to admit you're wrong, and I'm not asking you to philosophize on whether stats are an important. Nothing beats watching the game. But when watching the game yields you one impression of whether X happened (no interpretation - he either had several takeaways or he didn't) and stats say X didn't happen (no interpretation - he either had several takeaways or he didn't), that's not something that comes apart through a difference of interpretation. I'm not making a poor statistical argument, but it could very well be that the stats I'm referencing are wrong. Are they wrong? you tell me whether they're wrong. Honestly, tell me that those stats that I am referencing are wrong.

I know you're perfectly sure of what you saw. Are you aware that this necessary means you think the stats are incorrect? Please say that you understand, and that the stats are incorrect. Not that stats aren't useful, not that I'm trying to prove you wrong, but that your watching the game has forced you necessarily to conclude that the stat keeping for that game was inaccurate and incorrect.

Very good and very clever, I have been caught and you did your homework very well.

On your larger accusation, I have no choice but to plead guilty. When I saw that FirstClass was trying to triangulate Schenn, Filatov and Ottawa I knew he was really trying to create a backlash against Schenn. I suppose there was some mischief on my part to introduce the Karlsson factor in the way that I did. I did not think it was fair or honest when FirstClass used Schenn as a straw man. He knew that the Kool-aid drinkers would be out in force to defend him and it would only encourage attacks on Schenn by others. But, FirstClass obviously became bored with the diversion he had attempted to create and he gave up on his attempt. What you have not commented on is whether I genuinely do like Karllson or was merely trying to stimulate criticism of him by the Kool-aid drinkers. If someone signs on to the first part of your thesis, does it not logically follow that my purpose was to drive some negative reaction to the little Swedish wizard?

ps It was very clear during the game that Karllson stripped the puck from Ovechkin on several occasions. I have no idea why it did not show up in the post game data.
- spatso

Thank you for your reply. This is a great interpretation of the facts. I can't speak for FirstClass' intentions, but it wouldn't surprise me.


I'm not sure what you think of Karlsson. Obviously draft class comparisons are always going to be a hot topic, certainly among rivals. But the fact of the matter is that both Schenn and Karlsson are doing just fine for their ages.

re your ps, I hope Doppleganger reads it and simply repeats it himself. I don't understand why he is so reluctant to say the stats are blatantly wrong when by his account they were blatantly wrong. He instead keeps attacking the idea of using stats, which is quite silly in my opinion. All it would take is for him to say that that particular set of stats are incorrect, so they shouldn't be used , not that all statistical arguments are useless.

Thank you for your reply. This is a great interpretation of the facts. I can't speak for FirstClass' intentions, but it wouldn't surprise me.


I'm not sure what you think of Karlsson. Obviously draft class comparisons are always going to be a hot topic, certainly among rivals. But the fact of the matter is that both Schenn and Karlsson are doing just fine for their ages.

re your ps, I hope Doppleganger reads it and simply repeats it himself. I don't understand why he is so reluctant to say the stats are blatantly wrong when by his account they were blatantly wrong. He instead keeps attacking the idea of using stats, which is quite silly in my opinion. All it would take is for him to say that that particular set of stats are incorrect, so they shouldn't be used , not that all statistical arguments are useless.
- Morris

I was going out to see a movie last night, but after reading the review in paper, I decided I knew everything about the movie, and did not go.

I am now on a equal basis with everyone who actually saw the movie with their own two eyes.

I was going out to see a movie last night, but after reading the review in paper, I decided I knew everything about the movie, and did not go.

I am now on a equal basis with everyone who actually saw the movie with their own two eyes.
- Doppleganger

How good or how bad a movie is varies with taste. There is a lot more objective standard to whether someone stripped the puck from Ovechkin than whether a movie is good.

If I had to condescend and sum up your position:

I went to a movie last night and saw that during a climactic scene, the hero was on a magnificent ridge wearing a blue suit and holding a balloon.

I was later reading trivia about the movie where they stated that the climatic scene occurred underwater. Further, the director purposely made sure there was nothing blue in his film, and banned balloons from the set because he's afraid of them.

This didn't jive with my recollection, but rather than saying that the trivia must be wrong, I railed against the idea of movie trivia, and also anyone who brought up that inconsistency even if it wasn't in an attempt to prove me wrong.

How good or how bad a movie is varies with taste. There is a lot more objective standard to whether someone stripped the puck from Ovechkin than whether a movie is good.

If I had to condescend and sum up your position:

I went to a movie last night and saw that during a climactic scene, the hero was on a magnificent ridge wearing a blue suit and holding a balloon.

I was later reading trivia about the movie where they stated that the climatic scene occurred underwater. Further, the director purposely made sure there was nothing blue in his film, and banned balloons from the set because he's afraid of them.

This didn't jive with my recollection, but rather than saying that the trivia must be wrong, I railed against the idea of movie trivia, and also anyone who brought up that inconsistency even if it wasn't in an attempt to prove me wrong.
- Morris

During this movie did they review (via slow motion) the scene to confirm or reveal what you saw, or thought you saw?

Also did you have the ability to pause, rewind and re-watch any scene of your choice?

Also did you confirmation from other viewers of the same movie to confirm or deny what you saw?

What I saw, and saw again in slow motion replays, of Karlsson vs OV has been confirmed by other viewers of the same game. Only those who've NOT seen the game are trying to convince us that we did not see what happened.

I don't understand their point? What would I have to gain by fabricating something that (those who are relying only on stats) did not happen, as they are claiming??

Surely I would be called out by actual viewers of the game as a liar. But the opposite is true, other viewers are confirming what actually happened in the game, as they saw it also.

Has any other viewer of the game disputed said plays???

I thought not.

To be honest, the thing I'm completely puzzled about is how he could ever steal the puck from Ovechkin, when he actually had possession of the puck every second he was on the ice. I mean, how do you steal what you already have?
- prock

I don't think he had possession every second, because that would imply that he wasnt scoring a goal/shift that game.

We need to iron this all out before giving him the vezcalharadamsnorris trophy.

During this movie did they review (via slow motion) the scene to confirm or reveal what you saw, or thought you saw?

Also did you have the ability to pause, rewind and re-watch any scene of your choice?

Also did you confirmation from other viewers of the same movie to confirm or deny what you saw?

What I saw, and saw again in slow motion replays, of Karlsson vs OV has been confirmed by other viewers of the same game. Only those who've NOT seen the game are trying to convince us that we did not see what happened.

I don't understand their point? What would I have to gain by fabricating something that (those who are relying only on stats) did not happen, as they are claiming??

Surely I would be called out by actual viewers of the game as a liar. But the opposite is true, other viewers are confirming what actually happened in the game, as they saw it also.

Has any other viewer of the game disputed said plays???

I thought not.
- Doppleganger

Yup- the ones who were paid to watch, and journal what happened.


Btw, did anybody ever agree with you that Kadri was playing all 17 games on the first line.?

Love the double standard

During this movie did they review (via slow motion) the scene to confirm or reveal what you saw, or thought you saw?

Also did you have the ability to pause, rewind and re-watch any scene of your choice?

Also did you confirmation from other viewers of the same movie to confirm or deny what you saw?

What I saw, and saw again in slow motion replays, of Karlsson vs OV has been confirmed by other viewers of the same game. Only those who've NOT seen the game are trying to convince us that we did not see what happened.

I don't understand their point? What would I have to gain by fabricating something that (those who are relying only on stats) did not happen, as they are claiming??

Surely I would be called out by actual viewers of the game as a liar. But the opposite is true, other viewers are confirming what actually happened in the game, as they saw it also.

Has any other viewer of the game disputed said plays???

I thought not.
- Doppleganger

For the last time, I'm not calling you a liar or trying to convince you of anything.

I'm just asking: Do you not find it odd that the statistics kept for the game indicate something completely different than what you saw?
And
would you agree that if there is an inconsistency between what you saw, and what was kept as statistical records, then the statistics are wrong?

Can you answer yes or no as the case may be to these two questions? I've only asked five times now.

Yup- the ones who were paid to watch, and journal what happened.


Btw, did anybody ever agree with you that Kadri was playing all 17 games on the first line.?

Love the double standard

- Schenn-Sational!

I never said he did.