Bernier is a better rated prospect then Bob. Who do you think gets a bigger return in a trade Bob or Bernier? Its not terrible if you plan on replacing Carle with Suter in the offseason. You also lose Voracek and add Brown. Upgrade your goal situation.
- stveshdy

if holmgren offered that up right now, lombardi would not be able to say yes fast enough.

i understand your line of thought in that carle will be gone anyway so what's the difference, but if you're really going to sell off some pieces because this isn't the year, best to not package and discount them. carle is a serious asset, not a throwaway. also, expect to continue losing half or more of the games for the rest of the year once you deal carle.

Flyers already have a good prospect goalie, why trade additional assets for a similar one?
- bradleyc4

I dont think Bob is better than Bernier. Thats my opinion. Your getting back Brown who is an upgrade over Jake. You free money up losing Carle. You have to play MAB/Gus/Lilja in the sixth spot to finish out the season. I think you upgrade everywhere minus Carle. Carle wont be replaced until the summer where you plan on making a run at Suter.

It wasnt a pissing match. You asked what we thought.. I was the only one who responded and you answer with this

Sorry I didnt give you the answer you wanted. I will tell you this. If this teams psyche is so fragile that you need to name a guy "C" to have psychological impact on the team we have bigger issues.

You didnt like my answer... shouldnt have responded.


In bold: You are preaching my point... Leaders gonna lead... dont matter whats on the jersey, or what title they have.
- jak521

Well, I'm not the one that was comparing giving someone a captaincy to "super powers", so yeah, you set the tone pretty early.

Yes, leaders will lead. Give your strongest guy an enhanced role, let him set the tone and it could be the shot on the arm the team needs, which is my point. There are worse things. Believe it or not, something a simple as a title can go a long way.

What's interesting is that the Kings have not clicked this season offensively.
- bradleyc4

What's interesting is absolutely nothing about this conversation.

if holmgren offered that up right now, lombardi would not be able to say yes fast enough.

i understand your line of thought in that carle will be gone anyway so what's the difference, but if you're really going to sell off some pieces because this isn't the year, best to not package and discount them. carle is a serious asset, not a throwaway. also, expect to continue losing half or more of the games for the rest of the year once you deal carle.
- OrangeBlack27

The Flyers are losing with Carle in the lineup. The package I said can be a starting point. If Homer is able to add more to the deal so be it.

What's interesting is that the Kings have not clicked this season offensively.
- bradleyc4

If I'm LA and I offered up Voracek for Brown, they should be more then happy to accept that. Voracek has 33 points and Brown has 32. Voracek is younger. Voracek is cheaper and on top of this he's a RFA this summer, so they'd be able to sign him for less then what Brown makes now.

Some teams like LA and Columbus live in the past with such players as Brown and Nash. It's been a number of years since Brown his 30 and a number of years since Nash hit 30. At least if Calgary decided to trade Iglina, you're getting a guy who puts himself in the running to score 40 every season without much help and he's older then both of them.

Brown and Nash's plus/minus is brutal career wise.

I dont see this team as a legit contender. I also see Carle walking after this season. I would rather free up money looking toward adding a defenseman in the offseason. You would have to let MAB/Gus/Lilja play in that six spot. Im looking towards the future bc I dont believe their good enough to win it this year (even though anything can happen). Just my personal opinion.
- stveshdy

Me too. Become sellers for once. See if guys like Danny or Kimmo would go somewhere to win and free up that money. It'll never happen but what the heck, I think it beats overpaying for guys by gutting the team. Not saying those guys stink, but this team is clearly not on the level of Bruins, Rangers, and I'd argue Pens. Free up cap space to use this summer.

If they are going to make a move, go for a goalie, only thing this team has a need for.

It would be a shame if Boston gets Brown and NY gets Nash, but I like our forwards too much to blow it up before we have our goalie situated

Well, I'm not the one that was comparing giving someone a captaincy to "super powers", so yeah, you set the tone pretty early.

Yes, leaders will lead. Give your strongest guy an enhanced role, let him set the tone and it could be the shot on the arm the team needs, which is my point. There are worse things. Believe it or not, something a simple as a title can go a long way.
- MunsterMike

Both of you need to watch your tone. Discuss respectfully or go cool off.

then why do teams name captains? they all have fragile psyches except the flyers? not trying to be a pita i have just never understood this argument.
- Don'tForgetTocchet

Its a good question, and I guess it depends on your own experience and opinions. I see it like this.. you have guys like Briere, Timonen, Jagr, Hartnell, hell even G who all have experience and all lead in their own ways. Do you think if Timonen was the captain his stance on how to play the game would change? Do you think how he spoke to people would change? Do you think players would respect him more? I personally dont. I think the guy is a hell of a player, a great leader, and one of the more respected players in the sport... giving him the "c" wouldnt make him more respected imo.

I also know that wearing the "C'' has other leadership qualities like speaking to refs and handling media, but again I dont think that would change...

In my opinion captains are just a historical part of sports... We had 4 guys on the team that were captains for other teams at some point, does that mean they changed their style because they were not captain here?

What's interesting is absolutely nothing about this conversation.
- OrangeBlack27

the mob mentality between u and bc is kinda interesting

Well, I'm not the one that was comparing giving someone a captaincy to "super powers", so yeah, you set the tone pretty early.

Yes, leaders will lead. Give your strongest guy an enhanced role, let him set the tone and it could be the shot on the arm the team needs, which is my point. There are worse things. Believe it or not, something a simple as a title can go a long way.
- MunsterMike

That was meant to be a tongue in cheek.. I meant it like making a guy captain doesnt change the person he is. I am currently the captain on my mens league team.. but when I play for other teams I dont change who I am. I play the same way. If guys in the NHL dont play their hardest and to their best ability until they are entitled captain I think there is a big problem in the league.

Both of you need to watch your tone. Discuss respectfully or go cool off.
- bodiva88

Sorry bo. im out

Honestly, I think that's a great trade. I'd just want to make it in the offseason. We cant really afford to give up Carle right now.
- hereticpride

Problem is your not going to get anything for Carle if you wait till the offseason. If the Flyers were heading in the right direction I would say they have a legit chance, keep Carle (but their losing with him also). To me it makes more sense to look towards the future bc I dont believe their a true contender this season. Flyers think otherwise so they wont be sellers.

The Flyers will make trades to contend. They do it ever single year, that doesnt mean their a contender. My personal opinion, their not good enough to win the whole thing this season. Im looking towards the future. They probably plan on signing Grossman or Kubina in the offseason.
- stveshdy

Okay, so if they plan on signing Grossman or Kubina in the offseason, why trade for them both? Trading Carle would be a bad idea and a bad deal unless your getting a player who helps out right now. You might not consider the Flyers to be a contender but that doesn't mean they aren't. Just because they got shutout last night doesn't mean they aren't. Sam Gagner scores 4 goals and 4 assists on the Black Hawks a few weeks back for a win and the Black Hawks are very much a contender every year.

Both of you need to watch your tone. Discuss respectfully or go cool off.
- bodiva88

Aww, I ain't even dropped an f-bomb yet.

Okay, so if they plan on signing Grossman or Kubina in the offseason, why trade for them both? Trading Carle would be a bad idea and a bad deal unless your getting a player who helps out right now. You might not consider the Flyers to be a contender but that doesn't mean they aren't. Just because they got shutout last night doesn't mean they are. Sam Gagner scores 4 goals and 4 assists on the Black Hawks a few weeks back for a win and the Black Hawks are very much a contender every year.
- roenick97

Do you honestly believe the Flyers are a contender out of the Eastern Conference? The Flyers have been heading in the wrong direction since the ASB. Im not condoning to trading anyone but if you have the ability to upgrade your team (including the summer) I would have no problem with them making that move.

Having Grossman and Kubina gives them a chance to see how they fit into their system. Also allows them to sign both players before they hit UFA. So trading for both gives them options. Im sure Homer also wanted to upgrade his defense rather than playing two rookies.

then why do teams name captains? they all have fragile psyches except the flyers? not trying to be a pita i have just never understood this argument.
- Don'tForgetTocchet

Have you ever heard the expression too many cooks in the kitchen, or too many spoons in the pot? Same happens with leaders... The reason you name a Captain is when there is a difference of opinion, or the team needs someone to communicate directly with the coach... it puts 1 person in charge of that... 1 voice to be heard over the others so the team is on the same page... When you dont have that 1 person.... then you have different players looking at different leaders at critical times... You need unity, and players that look to 1 guy so everyone is together.... So I agree.

That was meant to be a tongue in cheek.. I meant it like making a guy captain doesnt change the person he is. I am currently the captain on my mens league team.. but when I play for other teams I dont change who I am. I play the same way. If guys in the NHL dont play their hardest and to their best ability until they are entitled captain I think there is a big problem in the league.
- jak521

I see what you are saying, and I agree.

However, telling some that they are the guy can bring out other qualities in them, even with veterans, beyond how they play.

Plus having 'that guy' can be stabilizing to the whole. Just look to the absence of Pronger, right? That is a mental thing, all of us here have seen it with the Flyers.

Its a good question, and I guess it depends on your own experience and opinions. I see it like this.. you have guys like Briere, Timonen, Jagr, Hartnell, hell even G who all have experience and all lead in their own ways. Do you think if Timonen was the captain his stance on how to play the game would change? Do you think how he spoke to people would change? Do you think players would respect him more? I personally dont. I think the guy is a hell of a player, a great leader, and one of the more respected players in the sport... giving him the "c" wouldnt make him more respected imo.

I also know that wearing the "C'' has other leadership qualities like speaking to refs and handling media, but again I dont think that would change...

In my opinion captains are just a historical part of sports... We had 4 guys on the team that were captains for other teams at some point, does that mean they changed their style because they were not captain here?
- jak521

the part i can't jive with is you're giving relevance to the fact these certain current players have been captains in the past, while at the same time saying that captaincy itself is an irrelevant or outdated historical nicety.

i just can't agree that having a leader is irrelevant.

Problem is your not going to get anything for Carle if you wait till the offseason. If the Flyers were heading in the right direction I would say they have a legit chance, keep Carle (but their losing with him also). To me it makes more sense to look towards the future bc I dont believe their a true contender this season. Flyers think otherwise so they wont be sellers.
- stveshdy

I disagree. The problem is that if you trade Carle now instead of his rights in the offseason you basically nullify the 4 draft picks we sent out for impending UFAs Kubina and Grossman. You may think they aren't contending this year but that's not how Homer sees it given those two additions.

Wasn't a criticism of the Flyers room under Richards stewardship that it was very cliquey?

I understand the move by the Kings acquiring Carter from a hockey standpoint but it doesn't make sense from a dressing room point. You would think 2 new guys to an organization would ostracize themselves even more?

I dont know everything that is happening but it doesnt seem that Harts was one of those players who clicked with those guys. I find it kind of odd that he is having a career year when both players are gone. Just my opinion but I dont know if thats truely the case.
- stveshdy

i thought they were all part of the center city crew

Here's the pros and cons as I see it:

PROS
1) Brown is three years younger
2) Brown is $1.1 M cheaper on the cap
3) Brown is signed for longer than Hartnell (a UFA at end of 2012-13)
4) Brown kills penalties, while Hartnell does not play PK
5) Brown's normal production rate is similar to Hartnell's
6) Brown is a captain in LA and could also be a captain here

CONS
1) Hartnell is having a better 2011-12 season by far
2) Hartnell is extremely popular in dressing room and a unifying presence
3) Hartnell and Giroux have established tremendous chemistry
4) Hartnell has a no-trade clause
5) Hartnell has compiled more playoff experience, including run to finals here
6) Hartnell relieves pressure on less talkative players by willingly going in front of the cameras and microphones during bad times. He knows by heart the pressures of playing in Philly. Brown has played in much lower-pressure market.

Do you honestly believe the Flyers are a contender out of the Eastern Conference? The Flyers have been heading in the wrong direction since the ASB. Im not condoning to trading anyone but if you have the ability to upgrade your team (including the summer) I would have no problem with them making that move.

Having Grossman and Kubina gives them a chance to see how they fit into their system. Also allows them to sign both players before they hit UFA.
- stveshdy

What you're proposing doesn't make sense. They could have signed both Grossman and Kubina in the offseason then.

Did anyone think the Flyers were a contender in 2010? I did but many around the league who did not watch them consistently didn't. This is pretty much all the argument I need.

Do you honestly believe the Flyers are a contender out of the Eastern Conference? The Flyers have been heading in the wrong direction since the ASB. Im not condoning to trading anyone but if you have the ability to upgrade your team (including the summer) I would have no problem with them making that move.

Having Grossman and Kubina gives them a chance to see how they fit into their system. Also allows them to sign both players before they hit UFA. So trading for both gives them options. Im sure Homer also wanted to upgrade his defense rather than playing two rookies.
- stveshdy

Bill mentioned it a few days ago, the Flyers always think they're a contender and act accordingly.

Don't expect Matt Carle to be traded.