Explain to me why trading Bolland and Hammer for Staal net benefits the Hawks. That is a HUGE overpay dude. Not to mention that if Staal does not want to be a 2C let alone a 3C how that works for him.
- Return of the Roar

Again, hypothetical. I don't disagree that it's an overpay from the Hawks perspective. Something else would likely need to be included...a pick, Ben Lovejoy, Tangriadi, etc.

My argument is that if the Pens fill a couple voids with a Bolland/Hammer type, wouldn't it make sense to solidy your depth in return for a guy who isn't ever going to be your #1 or #2 center? They already have 2 really good options for that, and as we well know, it's much easier to find a Wing than to find a #1 or #2 center.

I'm just throwing out those two names as an example. You could substitute the Hawks/Bolland/Hammer for about 28 other teams and they would come up with a decent package to get Staal. If you're going to listen for offers on Kane, you'd have to do the same for Staal, if it improved your club.

That's not Patrick Kane either. I mean, if we're using that rationale.

I'm still not buying into the Suter thing. It sounds nice. Maybe even reasonable. But eventually numbers are discussed and I don't see Stan going as high as Holland or a desperate Minnesota team. The one possibility I can see is McDonough coming down with his "send a message" money and over bidding. That MIGHT happen. But it's not a probability.

Nash for Kane is interesting. I don't see it happening. but very interesting. I saw what Nash and Toews together looked like during the Olympics. Yes Please! but Columbus trading their star within the division ad if Columbus is worried that Kane might pull a Carter like sulk. Or if they're worried about Kaner full time in a college town, which, Sadly, is still a concern....Again, I don't see it.

I think the biggest move the hawks make will be a trade. I think you almost have to trade Stalberg ( team won't commit top 6 minutes or money towards him.) i don't want to trade Super Nintendo Hjalmers. but i think he brings something back and if you're getting a big defenseman for your top 4 then #4 is out of place as a third line D. Jay Boumeister's name keeps popping up in my head as a possibility.

Should be interesting
- yahoodi

The argument is that we already have enough skill players and they just need to add muscle to what they already have. That is why guys like Stalberg and all of the other forward prospects are dealable for the Hawks. They all kind of fit that same smallish or at least non-physical scorer profile.

To play hypotheticals, wouldn't it make sense to trade him for (let's just say) Bolland and Hammer, rather than let him play his final season and let him walk?

He can't negotiate an extension until July 1 and the CBA is going to be curbed for a while, so it likely won't get figured out any time soon...but the Pens cannot afford to lose him for nothing.
- eburgio

Apparently you missed the article I posted yesterday,and the comments Al has posted,that free agency and the draft and trades will all be business as usual,Bettman has even told teams that they should not change the way they approach July 1st because of any insecurities that they might have because of the CBA...so i assume the Pen's either extend Staal a little after July 1st or work on a deal during next season,or trade him without any problems

Apparently you missed the article I posted yesterday,and the comments Al has posted,that free agency and the draft and trades will all be business as usual,Bettman has even told teams that they should not change the way they approach July 1st because of any insecurities that they might have because of the CBA...so i assume the Pen's either extend Staal a little after July 1st or work on a deal during next season,or trade him without any problems
- captainserious

I can't see any team spending up to the cap limit on July 1 without knowing what's on the other side of the CBA curtain. I think most of the smart teams will leave themselves a little breathing room just in case.

Anyone who takes Bettman's word as gospel is in for it

Again, hypothetical. I don't disagree that it's an overpay from the Hawks perspective. Something else would likely need to be included...a pick, Ben Lovejoy, Tangriadi, etc.

My argument is that if the Pens fill a couple voids with a Bolland/Hammer type, wouldn't it make sense to solidy your depth in return for a guy who isn't ever going to be your #1 or #2 center? They already have 2 really good options for that, and as we well know, it's much easier to find a Wing than to find a #1 or #2 center.

I'm just throwing out those two names as an example. You could substitute the Hawks/Bolland/Hammer for about 28 other teams and they would come up with a decent package to get Staal. If you're going to listen for offers on Kane, you'd have to do the same for Staal, if it improved your club.
- eburgio

All we are doing in this hypothetical deal is accepting the Pens' hot potato who does not want to be stuck on third line duty and giving the Pens the depth we are trying to build at center in exchange.

I really wish people would please look beyond the big name players and see that the most likely and best solution to the Hawks' woes is to find mid level guys that the Hawks non-core talent base can be used in exchange for rather than posting for sale signs on our top players in pursuit of other top players which in the end do not solve the problems with this roster. We have some of the best top talent in the sport, and all they lack is a sufficient supporting cast to allow them to play to their potential most nights.

I see this as a really good (and possible to make happen) roster that leaves room for changes

Toews/Downie/Kane
Ott/Sharp/Hossa
Bolland/Frolik/Bickell
Kruger/Shaw/Carcillo

Keith/Seabrook
Suter/Hammer
Leddy/Monty

Crawford/Emery

Still would have like $3.5-4MM on the table assuming cap of $69MM, Suter gets $6-6.5 and Ott/Downie can be had for under $5MM together.

You have plenty of skill talent/prospects to trade with to get the two forwards without having to deplete the core players at all. No way Colorado asks for core talent for an RFA making less than $2MM, and no way Dallas would not listen to a package of good prospects for Ott. I think you go for broke prospect trade wise getting that big 2C. And all three new guys can play on the PP/PK.
- Return of the Roar

Roar,

This would be an awfully solid Blueprint. But idk that Steve Ott can play the pivot. Also, I would Pencil Shaw ahead of Frolik to play with Bolland.

Kruger needs to learn how to play center. Best to do so on the fourth line. The fourth line doe not necessarily have to be a checking line. I think Bolland's line does that. With Carcillo and Shaw along side Kruger you actually have the potential for that to be an energy/scoring line of sorts. Or, you trade him and go get a Konopka type guy. Either way works for me. I'm not just not sold on Kruger as a long term hold for the Hawks anyway.

As for Dallas - new ownership is why you have a window for a deal for Ott. Maybe they can be sold (hello Stan) on the benefits of building for their future with some of our prospects.
- Return of the Roar

Didn't know about Dallas ownership.. thanks

I'm 50/50 on Kruger.. but get your point now..

>This is the time of year that injury-proneness of players tends to get ignored
>Staal gets injured a lot and only has had over 50 pts once in his career (I think)
>David Moss, rumored to be being looked at by the Hawks, has missed 92 games over the last three years
>Hossa is not a lock yet for returning, Kane sure hasn't scored many goals, Sharp, as a finisher is needed -- at least for now
>Agree that Staal would look good on the Hawks, but as Al pointed out -- when the Hawks "went defense-first" in their team play, they averaged 2 goals a game -- the rest of the Hawks roster hasn't proven that they can "score by committee" like a team like the Blues
>Guys who can finish are not valued on this board, but they sure are in GM offices, because there are few players in the NHL that can
- SnapitUpstairs

The downside of both players is injuries.

Staal is the whole package and still very young.

No, possible, but not necessary. Lose Oduya's money, Brunette's and, deal one middling salary and they can afford him and still sign their own guys.
- John Jaeckel

JJ,

Are the Hawks willing to make Suter the highest paid player on the team? Toews/Kane are currently at the top with $6.3 mil

he WANTS to be a #1 center. he thinks he can be on most teams (see: Edmonton), but that would require him going to some place that's garbage (see: Edmonton).

Even if the Pens appease him and move him to #2C and bump Malkin to Wing, that still doesn't change the fact that when he re-ups, he'll have a deal worth approx $6M/yr. That's like Nashville typing up 3 players at $7M apiece. For a franchise that has been on the brink of extinction a couple times, I'm not sure Pittsburgh wants to go there and lock up 3 players and chew up that much cap space
- eburgio

This whole business of him wanting to be a #1 or #2 C is total rubbish.

If you put Jordan Staal's name on a list that included Toews, Malkin, Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Eric Staal, Nick Backstrom, Crosby or even Joe Thornton, Kopitar or Tyler Seguin and asked coaches or GM's if they would pick him over any of them they would pee their pants laughing, because he just doesn't compare.

Jordan Staal is a lot closer to a Dave Bolland or Tomas Plekanec than he is to any of the above. Plus he's injury prone. Plus his name is never mentioned when Canada picks their international teams.

He will leave Pittsburgh if he feels his role there is limiting his income potential. He will get $6M somewhere But that won't change the fact that he is not an elite center at the NHL level. And going to "garbage" Edmonton won't change that either because they have Nugent Hopkins there for the forseeable future.

What your realisitc view of where Stalberg can play now.. and where he would top out at.. are the two the same?
- victorymc98

I don't know. Seems like a decent 2nd line LW for some teams. Reminds me in some ways of Versteeg because he has undeniable particular skills yet his overall game is lacking. I think Versteeg however has grown where I'm not sure Stalberg ever will. At his size, he should be a more complete, consistent physical player. Some nights you see the awesome puck control, others he gets completely nullified.

errr, to the contrary, Pittsburgh WANTS to to extend him sooner rather than later...doesn't mean he signs. I have a buddy in Pittsburgh keeping me aprised of this and he says that the momentum is building for a Staal exit, but he thinks that the Pens hold on to him beyond the draft because that would be a bad PR move (since they host the draft).
- eburgio

He is still a year away from being a UFA...Time will tell.

I can't see any team spending up to the cap limit on July 1 without knowing what's on the other side of the CBA curtain. I think most of the smart teams will leave themselves a little breathing room just in case.

Anyone who takes Bettman's word as gospel is in for it
- eburgio

CSNPhilly.com’s Tim Panaccio last week quoted an unnamed NHL Board of Governor member claiming all the big money teams intend to “max out” on the salary cap, because if it is adjusted downward next season, it will be done “across the board” without penalizing the top spenders.

They would not tell teams to do business as usual and then not live up to their word,it would cause such backlash that it would be the end of Bettman,and another point,Bettman works for the team owners,not against them,I could see him lie to the players union,but not to team owners,so yeah,I'll believe Bettman this time

44 points for a 875,000 player is pretty good. Also, he has shown flashes of belonging on the top line. Also, in several games where our team looked bamboozled, he was the only offensive threat (Pitt game comes to mind, and there were several games down the stretch as well where he may not have registered a point, but generated zone time and scoring chances with his speed and size). Also, he has less than 2 full seasons, so most people assume he will only get better (especially given his marked improvement throughout the year). That being said, he is one of our better trading chips, because the season he had this year has his value extremely high. If they trade him, it must be part of a deal to acquire a top notch goaltender, or legit top 6 player. Anything else its tough to pull the trigger on IMO, because he just may be able to serviceably fill that top 6 role...+ he could be used at the TDL to acquire a savvy veteran....+ he can be moved to ANY line and still be an effective player. I don't think the offseason is the right time to deal him unless you get what I bolded.
- anawrocki

If the plans are to use Stalberg like he was for most of last season...This is exactly the time to trade him in a package.

If Stalberg is going to be given a real opportunity to play as a top six then hang onto him.

I'd love to see Rick Nash with the Hawks, that being said, why would you trade the only player that can put the puck on a string to him constantly. I say put all the eggs in the basket for Suter. Move Sharp and Bolland to Pittsburgh for Jordan Stall and Ben Lovejoy. Trade Hammer and get Malone and Thompson.
- nickmo2699[/quote]

I like Hammer, but it would take alot more than hammer to get that return.

I think the Kane for Nash question is legit and you are the second person to ask me that. I will just say, you can't assume the roster would remain static aside from that move. CBJ is motivated big time to move Nash; the Hawks might be with Kane.

I also think if Hossa is healthy, setting aside 5-on-5 linemaking, Hossa, Toews and Nash as a 1st power play unit is DEADLY. I think Nash is more dangerous on the PP than Kane is. I know some will go apoplectic at that sacrilege. Sorry Nash is brutally tough to move off the puck, has lightning quick hands and Hossa and Toews can move the puck pretty well.

Also don't rule out Kruger as 2C. Might not be everyone's dream, but he has ability as a playmaker and maybe more than some realize yet.

[quote=nickmo2699]I'd love to see Rick Nash with the Hawks, that being said, why would you trade the only player that can put the puck on a string to him constantly. I say put all the eggs in the basket for Suter. Move Sharp and Bolland to Pittsburgh for Jordan Stall and Ben Lovejoy. Trade Hammer and get Malone and Thompson.
- John Jaeckel[/quote]

I like Hammer, but it would take alot more than hammer to get that return.

I think the Kane for Nash question is legit and you are the second person to ask me that. I will just say, you can't assume the roster would remain static aside from that move. CBJ is motivated big time to move Nash; the Hawks might be with Kane.

I also think if Hossa is healthy, setting aside 5-on-5 linemaking, Hossa, Toews and Nash as a 1st power play unit is DEADLY. I think Nash is more dangerous on the PP than Kane is. I know some will go apoplectic at that sacrilege. Sorry Nash is brutally tough to move off the puck, has lightning quick hands and Hossa and Toews can move the puck pretty well.

Also don't rule out Kruger as 2C. Might not be everyone's dream, but he has ability as a playmaker and maybe more than some realize yet.

A good PP starts with 1 thing: A legitimate good decision making defensman that can smoothly get zone entry. We dont have that JJ, and even that god send of a unit that would involve 61-19-81 would be nullified bc they wouldnt get the puck in the zone.

Kruger needs to learn how to play center. Best to do so on the fourth line. The fourth line doe not necessarily have to be a checking line. I think Bolland's line does that. With Carcillo and Shaw along side Kruger you actually have the potential for that to be an energy/scoring line of sorts. Or, you trade him and go get a Konopka type guy. Either way works for me. I'm not just not sold on Kruger as a long term hold for the Hawks anyway.

As for Dallas - new ownership is why you have a window for a deal for Ott. Maybe they can be sold (hello Stan) on the benefits of building for their future with some of our prospects.
- Return of the Roar

Disagree. He needs to get stronger physically/stronger on draws. Playing 4th line doesn't really help that. Otherwise, he has a center's mentality and a center's game.

A good PP starts with 1 thing: A legitimate good decision making defensman that can smoothly get zone entry. We dont have that JJ, and even that god send of a unit that would involve 61-19-81 would be nullified bc they wouldnt get the puck in the zone.
- nickmo2699

I don't disagree. Just saying as a forward unit on the PP, as Ditka used to say, you better duck. Trading Kane for Nash doesn't preclude getting better on the back end on the PP. Keeping Kane doesn't mean it either.

And for comparison sake, with Fedor Tyutin and James Wisniewski on the points, both are ummm OK/nothing remotely special running a PP, Columbus' PP was better than the Hawks' this year.

I don't know. Seems like a decent 2nd line LW for some teams. Reminds me in some ways of Versteeg because he has undeniable particular skills yet his overall game is lacking. I think Versteeg however has grown where I'm not sure Stalberg ever will. At his size, he should be a more complete, consistent physical player. Some nights you see the awesome puck control, others he gets completely nullified.
- John Jaeckel

Thank you for this.. I didn't know if I was out of place thinking the same thing..

Thank you for this.. I didn't know if I was out of place thinking the same thing..
- victorymc98

No.

I have to be honest with you, if I had to bet, Stalberg will be in another sweater before the draft. Not certain of it by any means. Just a strong feeling.

I will blog on this and some other stuff I'm hearing maybe tomorrow.

I don't disagree. Just saying as a forward unit on the PP, as Ditka used to say, you better duck. Trading Kane for Nash doesn't preclude getting better on the back end on the PP. Keeping Kane doesn't mean it either.
- John Jaeckel

Hi JJ! Just wanted to know what is your prediction for the offseason,what will or who will be the first big dominoe to fall?Lidstrom?Suter?Semin?Parise?Lu?Lindback?someone else?

All we are doing in this hypothetical deal is accepting the Pens' hot potato who does not want to be stuck on third line duty and giving the Pens the depth we are trying to build at center in exchange.

I really wish people would please look beyond the big name players and see that the most likely and best solution to the Hawks' woes is to find mid level guys that the Hawks non-core talent base can be used in exchange for rather than posting for sale signs on our top players in pursuit of other top players which in the end do not solve the problems with this roster.
- Return of the Roar

Jesus, i'm not saying I would trade the farm for staal. The conversation came up as to why the Pens would entertain trading him and not just let him play his final year at $4MM. And I'm saying why they should/would and why it would make sense and just randomly threw out two names. I can use another team if that makes it easier. I'll go w/San Jose since they are in my backyard....what if they offered Pavelski and Doug Murray. Pitt gets a guy making Staals current salary and helps with defensive depth. Sharks get a #2 Center and can move Couture to Wing.

Look beyond the names and just look at the framework of what I suggested. It's not about fire sales, it's not about lusting for big names, it's none of that. It's simply saying, if you didn't want to risk losing Staal for nothing, this is what you'd have to consider.

This whole business of him wanting to be a #1 or #2 C is total rubbish.

If you put Jordan Staal's name on a list that included Toews, Malkin, Datsyuk, Brad Richards, Eric Staal, Nick Backstrom, Crosby or even Joe Thornton, Kopitar or Tyler Seguin and asked coaches or GM's if they would pick him over any of them they would pee their pants laughing, because he just doesn't compare.

Jordan Staal is a lot closer to a Dave Bolland or Tomas Plekanec than he is to any of the above. Plus he's injury prone. Plus his name is never mentioned when Canada picks their international teams.

He will leave Pittsburgh if he feels his role there is limiting his income potential. He will get $6M somewhere But that won't change the fact that he is not an elite center at the NHL level. And going to "garbage" Edmonton won't change that either because they have Nugent Hopkins there for the forseeable future.
- RickJ

But if you put his name on the list of third line two way centers he is near the top...

The Staal family understands the game totally and they also understand not to think too much of yourself. He has been injury prone and doesn't have the numbers to support Brad Richard's salary.

Pitt will pay Staal well and most likely extend him before he reaches July 1 2013....

Disagree. He needs to get stronger physically/stronger on draws. Playing 4th line doesn't really help that. Otherwise, he has a center's mentality and a center's game.
- John Jaeckel

Maybe I should have said play center better. Being a 50%+ winner at the dot to me anyway, is kind of a prerequisite for being a 1C or 2C, and he is definitely not there yet. He was like 45% in regular season play and was often yanked in favor of Sharp to take draws in the playoffs this year because his draw win pct was pretty bad in the post season.

Yet another bet to make.....what is his true upside, and how long before he gets there. I don't know how long the team has to wait and see.

Jesus, i'm not saying I would trade the farm for staal. The conversation came up as to why the Pens would entertain trading him and not just let him play his final year at $4MM. And I'm saying why they should/would and why it would make sense and just randomly threw out two names. I can use another team if that makes it easier. I'll go w/San Jose since they are in my backyard....what if they offered Pavelski and Doug Murray. Pitt gets a guy making Staals current salary and helps with defensive depth. Sharks get a #2 Center and can move Couture to Wing.

Look beyond the names and just look at the framework of what I suggested. It's not about fire sales, it's not about lusting for big names, it's none of that. It's simply saying, if you didn't want to risk losing Staal for nothing, this is what you'd have to consider.
- eburgio

Shero is one of the best GM's around...He knew this time was coming and he won't get caught losing Staal for nothing.