Well looks like the Suter dream is over. Lidstrom to retire, and im 99.9% sure Suter will be his replacement. Him or Weber.

Question for everyone Do you like Lavy as a coach?
- PhillyFran

Yes!

If Flyers kept those two, dropped Versteeg and added Bryzgalov yes, they would been better on paper. Schenn and Couturier were rookies coming into this season, Jagr was 39 y/o and hadn't played in the NHL for over three years also Simmonds had never even scored 20 goals. Don't get me wrong I felt better about this team at the time and still do but I won't deny having those two on the roster going into this season would have made them better on paper.
- JoeRussomanno

Who cares about "on paper"? You mean to tell me you would rather have 2 guys with a combined cap hit of over 10 million rather than have 4 younger guys with a ton of upside with a combined cap hit of around 6.5 million?

Yes!
- MJL

that's another thing now you have the Lavy can't coach nonsense

Who cares about "on paper"? You mean to tell me you would rather have 2 guys with a combined cap hit of over 10 million rather than have 4 younger guys with a ton of upside with a combined cap hit of around 6.5 million?
- Jimmygrazz

you obviously didn't read my whole post.

you obviously didn't read my whole post.
- JoeRussomanno

I did. It makes no sense and is not relevant.

I think it's a bit insulting, to simplify the opinions of those who felt the trades were purely hockey as suggesting it was 'only to clear salary', and shows a clear lack of understanding of the suggestion. More insulting is it to propose it's some kind of cognitive dissonance. If you disagree, feel off ice behavior factored in, that's fine. But to say the other side "can't face the facts"?

As for the woodwork creepers who've appeared just in time to distribute "I told you so's", I'm trying to pay them no heed.
- BulliesPhan87

Well said. And if the opinion is offered that those who feel that the moves were Hockey related, was just based on moving salary. Then they aren't looking at the full picture and all the hockey issues for the moves. At least that's how I see it.

This whole line of discussion came out of me because someone did in fact say that just a few pages back. I will also say and stand behind the fact those two had a hand in there demise. Jak has done a good job all day of outlining the mess they were creating here. Fwiw I find him to be a rather credible poster despite the fact I do not know him personally.
- JoeRussomanno

Jak's a fine poster, thoughtful fan, offers great insight on injury situations. I wouldn't agree it was 'only to create cap space' either. That's not really my point, though. I just have my undies in a bundle over suggesting one's 'not facing the facts' if they feel the alleged alcoholic adventures of the dynamic duo were overstated and not a factor in the trades. I have no problem if that's your point of view, but it's still in the realm of supposition regardless of how likely it seems.

I did. It makes no sense and is not relevant.
- Jimmygrazz

what sense didn't it make? The Flyers would have been better on Paper, I'm still glad they made the trades and feel they are better off? How is that noncomprehending and irrelevant? It's about hockey, so that makes it relevant by default unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of.

Watching the OT of the last Kings/Yotes game on the NHL Network...

Wow did this piss me off. Doughty's antics...Brown's knee...Smith playing without a glove....

what sense didn't it make? The Flyers would have been better on Paper, I'm still glad they made the trades and feel they are better off? How is that noncomprehending and irrelevant? It's about hockey, so that makes it relevant by default unless something has changed recently that I'm unaware of.
- JoeRussomanno

In my opinion this whole "on paper" thing is irrelevant.

This whole line of discussion came out of me because someone did in fact say that just a few pages back. I will also say and stand behind the fact those two had a hand in there demise. Jak has done a good job all day of outlining the mess they were creating here. Fwiw I find him to be a rather credible poster despite the fact I do not know him personally.
- JoeRussomanno

The poster you mention Joe has offered zero facts to outline the "mess" as you call it.

Jak's a fine poster, thoughtful fan, offers great insight on injury situations. I wouldn't agree it was 'only to create cap space' either. That's not really my point, though. I just have my undies in a bundle over suggesting one's 'not facing the facts' if they feel the alleged alcoholic adventures of the dynamic duo were overstated and not a factor in the trades. I have no problem if that's your point of view, but it's still in the realm of supposition regardless of how likely it seems.
- BulliesPhan87

I think we're getting off track here. I went on a whole schpeil about this for the 15th time today (this has got to be the most beaten to death two trades of all time) because someone came out and said "Salary should have been cleared in other ways." I find that view preposterous, insulting etc. Having felt that way probably lead me to react in a way which insulted others, sorry

In my opinion this whole "on paper" thing is irrelevant.
- Jimmygrazz

Ok well I guess statistics are completely irrelevant and should warrant such a response whenever they are brought up, and don't get me wrong there are instances where they are.

Well said. And if the opinion is offered that those who feel that the moves were Hockey related, was just based on moving salary. Then they aren't looking at the full picture and all the hockey issues for the moves. At least that's how I see it.
- MJL

I don't disagree with either position.

The poster you mention Joe has offered zero facts to outline the "mess" as you call it.
- MJL

The mess has been appropriately cleaned up imo

Ok well I guess statistics are completely irrelevant and should warrant such a response whenever they are brought up, and don't get me wrong there are instances where they are.
- JoeRussomanno

IMO in hockey you need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, stats are one thing, but you need to look at the financials as well. I feel "on paper" that the Flyers were better off after the trades looking at several different factors.

Watching the OT of the last Kings/Yotes game on the NHL Network...

Wow did this piss me off. Doughty's antics...Brown's knee...Smith playing without a glove....
- Giroux_Is_God

Apparently there is no rule on the no glove. I don't know either way but the announcers opined on this.

Brown's knee should have been called.

Doughty did get screwed on a call as well.

Doesn't matter now - 2 best teams in SC.

Brown hit him so hard with his knee that he spun around two and a half times after hitting him.

AFTER stuck his elbow out to club him right in the chin.

Scumbag

IMO in hockey you need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, stats are one thing, but you need to look at the financials as well. I feel "on paper" that the Flyers were better off after the trades looking at several different factors.
- Jimmygrazz

I hear what you are saying and agree to an extent, especially that they are a better team however you have to consider that they did finish lower 5th seed, than last year, 2nd seed, were manhandled by a division opponent all year and didn't get further than they did last year. I'm just playing devil's advocate of course but that's what you are gonna hear from the naysayers.

IMO in hockey you need to look at the bigger picture. Yes, stats are one thing, but you need to look at the financials as well. I feel "on paper" that the Flyers were better off after the trades looking at several different factors.
- Jimmygrazz

There is no question that the Flyers have put themselves in a much better position with the trades. If they weren't made and they had signed Bryzgalov they would have lacked depth and maneuverability within the Cap. While also at the same time lacked prospect and draft picks to have an influx of young talent to off set those difficulties. If that team with Richards and Carter had been not good enough to win it all, with the movement clauses kicking in, it would've been very difficult to move on from that. Holmgren dug himself some holes and he made some very bold and risky moves to get out of those holes. Now the team has an influx of young talent and some maneuverability. Only real issue right now is to build the defense. I like this team and I feel it has an exciting future.

Brown hit him so hard with his knee that he spun around two and a half times after hitting him.

AFTER stuck his elbow out to club him right in the chin.

Scumbag
- Giroux_Is_God

The consistency with penalties is a real issue. To me, even though no one values my opinion, you proceed as follows:

1) No brainer penalties like breaking a stick or delay of game
2) Violent plays (i.e. knee on knee) should clearly get more scrutiny
3) Plays that impact the game (i.e. hooking on a breakaway versus a small tug in the corner)

If you address the first three than calling the rest of the game should be easy. When one of the three are violated, games can get out of control.

Apparently there is no rule on the no glove. I don't know either way but the announcers opined on this.

Brown's knee should have been called.

Doughty did get screwed on a call as well.

Doesn't matter now - 2 best teams in SC.
- Daman

There is no rule about the glove. It's true. It's only for the helmet...but it's still bullfungus. Don't like it at all. A player losing a glove is a little bit different than a goalie losing a glove....

With Doughty though, my issue with that is he needs to act like a professional. Not a 2 year old getting his toy taken away. I don't care if the ref blew the call. How pathetic...remember Armando Gallaraga's reaction when Jimmy Joyce blew the call that TOOK AWAY HIS PERFECT GAME? It was a smirk. A (frank)in smirk. Then he turned around and got the next guy out LIKE A PROFESSIONAL.

Brown's hit was garbage.

Go Debbies.

I hear what you are saying and agree to an extent, especially that they are a better team however you have to consider that they did finish lower 5th seed, than last year, 2nd seed, were manhandled by a division opponent all year and didn't get further than they did last year. I'm just playing devil's advocate of course but that's what you are gonna hear from the naysayers.
- JoeRussomanno

106 Points 2 years ago and 103 this year. Not that big of a difference. Other teams got better hence the 5th seed

There is no question that the Flyers have put themselves in a much better position with the trades. If they weren't made and they had signed Bryzgalov they would have lacked depth and maneuverability within the Cap. While also at the same time lacked prospect and draft picks to have an influx of young talent to off set those difficulties. If that team with Richards and Carter had been not good enough to win it all, with the movement clauses kicking in, it would've been very difficult to move on from that. Holmgren dug himself some holes and he made some very bold and risky moves to get out of those holes. Now the team has an influx of young talent and some maneuverability. Only real issue right now is to build the defense. I like this team and I feel it has an exciting future.
- MJL

I agreee. The Flyers should have kept Carter and Richards and traded Giroux, Hartnell, Timmo, Coburn, and Mez for Dopitar, Doughty, Brown and Quick.