106 Points 2 years ago and 103 this year. Not that big of a difference. Other teams got better hence the 5th seed
- Jimmygrazz

I'm really not arguing with you just telling you what the other side is going to say. All I'm saying is that yes on paper with those two still here they would have been better on paper. I don't know how supplanting two proven players with rookies and unprovens and or aging players makes you better on paper.

I think we're getting off track here. I went on a whole schpeil about this for the 15th time today (this has got to be the most beaten to death two trades of all time) because someone came out and said "Salary should have been cleared in other ways." I find that view preposterous, insulting etc. Having felt that way probably lead me to react in a way which insulted others, sorry
- JoeRussomanno

I don't mean to drag this out either, though I'm now guilty of it. I just don't strongly subscribe to one side or another on the off ice assertions. I don't think it's unreasonable to suppose their behavior left a bad taste in management's mouth. I don't find it to be concrete fact, but it's not entirely unlikely either. I think the trades begin and end entirely with hockey reasons, though.

I'm really not arguing with you just telling you what the other side is going to say. All I'm saying is that yes on paper with those two still here they would have been better on paper. I don't know how supplanting two proven players with rookies and unprovens and or aging players makes you better on paper.
- JoeRussomanno

And I am not arguing either. If you look at it from a stat standpoint you are correct.

There is no question that the Flyers have put themselves in a much better position with the trades. If they weren't made and they had signed Bryzgalov they would have lacked depth and maneuverability within the Cap. While also at the same time lacked prospect and draft picks to have an influx of young talent to off set those difficulties. If that team with Richards and Carter had been not good enough to win it all, with the movement clauses kicking in, it would've been very difficult to move on from that. Holmgren dug himself some holes and he made some very bold and risky moves to get out of those holes. Now the team has an influx of young talent and some maneuverability. Only real issue right now is to build the defense. I like this team and I feel it has an exciting future.
- MJL

While what you say is all well and good, I still would like to know why Holmgren didn't move Carter at the Trade deadline rather sign him to a massive contract then 6 months later deal him?

I don't mean to drag this out either, though I'm now guilty of it. I just don't strongly subscribe to one side or another on the off ice assertions. I don't think it's unreasonable to suppose their behavior left a bad taste in management's mouth. I don't find it to be concrete fact, but it's not entirely unlikely either. I think the trades begin and end entirely with hockey reasons, though.
- BulliesPhan87

Then my issue really isn't with you rather I'm just defending my own position.

I'm really not arguing with you just telling you what the other side is going to say. All I'm saying is that yes on paper with those two still here they would have been better on paper. I don't know how supplanting two proven players with rookies and unprovens and or aging players makes you better on paper.
- JoeRussomanno

But that's not the point Joe. It's not about which team would be better then the other this year. It's about which team has the better potential to be a Championship team! And the Flyers felt that the latter, with Richards and Carter, wouldn't be good enough. Whether they were right or wrong, who knows. But that's what they felt. And that was a big part of the decisions they made.

"As a coach I was never a big line matcher. I felt if I'm worried about keeping some players off the ice over others I was losing that battle..."

--Barry Melrose



THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why he was a terrible coach

While what you say is all well and good, I still would like to know why Holmgren didn't move Carter at the Trade deadline rather sign him to a massive contract then 6 months later deal him?
- JoeRussomanno

6 months is a long time for thoughts about the makeup of a team to change.

"As a coach I was never a big line matcher. I felt if I'm worried about keeping some players off the ice over others I was losing that battle..."

--Barry Melrose



THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is why he was a terrible coach
- Giroux_Is_God

He makes a good point if you understand what he's saying.

But that's not the point Joe. It's not about which team would be better then the other this year. It's about which team has the better potential to be a Championship team! And the Flyers felt that the latter, with Richards and Carter, wouldn't be good enough. Whether they were right or wrong, who knows. But that's what they felt. And that was a big part of the decisions they made.
- MJL

Like I said I liked the moves. IF you throw out the off ice stuff, I'd have rather kept Richards however... Schenn has a ways to go before he's a better player than Richards, not that he won't at least be as good as him, he sure showed flashes this year. Simmonds I'm still undecided about, I was big on him but he really went Awol in the playoffs, so I'll see what he does the rest of the way, otherwise he was a solid impact in the regular season.

6 months is a long time for thoughts about the makeup of a team to change.
- MJL

To me it's a short time to end a commitment after you had already courted for years.

6 months is a long time for thoughts about the makeup of a team to change.
- MJL

Beat me to it. When the extension was signed, I think the intention to build around those two was quite sincere. When the Flyers were eliminated by the Bruins, I feel Holmgren identified a crucial crossroads. Two very different paths were available, and swiftly impending was the need to choose one.

Beat me to it. When the extension was signed, I think the intention to build around those two was quite sincere. When the Flyers were eliminated by the Bruins, I feel Holmgren identified a crucial crossroads. Two very different paths, and swiftly impending the need to choose one.
- BulliesPhan87

Losing to the Bruins isn;t enough in itself to determine 6 months after a big commitment to part-ways. The Bruins didn't come out of nowhere either and eventually won the cup. Also 6 months prior they didn't know there was a wave of NTC's kicking in? THey didn't just sign him to a 3 year deal, they gave him 10 and that's a big commitment to turn around on in just 6 months.

To me it's a short time to end a commitment after you had already courted for years.
- JoeRussomanno

It is a short time. And an abrupt direction change that was shocking. But if Holmgren had doubts after a bit of time, I commend him for taking action.

Losing to the Bruins isn;t enough in itself to determine 6 months after a big commitment to part-ways. The Bruins didn't come out of nowhere either and eventually won the cup. Also 6 months prior they didn't know there was a wave of NTC's kicking in? THey didn't just sign him to a 3 year deal, they gave him 10 and that's a big commitment to turn around on in just 6 months.
- JoeRussomanno

Yes it is enough obviously. Holmgren didn't like his team, and had to act quickly if he wanted to change the team's direction. Carter's deal was 11 years.

Yes it is enough obviously. Holmgren didn't like his team, and had to act quickly if he wanted to change the team's direction. Carter's deal was 11 years.
- MJL

There r no facts to support this

There r no facts to support this
- JoeRussomanno

Sure there are. He made two major trades which added 4 new players, and removed two top players. While also adding a Goalie. And some other changes.

Sure there are. He made two major trades which added 4 new players, and removed two top players. While also adding a Goalie. And some other changes.
- MJL

It is clear to me and many others that you are both correct.

Sure there are. He made two major trades which added 4 new players, and removed two top players. While also adding a Goalie. And some other changes.
- MJL

so after every playoff loss a GM should trade his captain and alternate?

It is clear to me and many others that you are both correct.
- Daman

is that what they say?

Losing to the Bruins isn;t enough in itself to determine 6 months after a big commitment to part-ways. The Bruins didn't come out of nowhere either and eventually won the cup. Also 6 months prior they didn't know there was a wave of NTC's kicking in? THey didn't just sign him to a 3 year deal, they gave him 10 and that's a big commitment to turn around on in just 6 months.
- JoeRussomanno

Losing to the Bruins was a pretty big factor, but that's not what I was getting at. I was more referring to the time, place, and factors Holmgren was facing in building his team.

so after every playoff loss a GM should trade his captain and alternate?
- JoeRussomanno

I didn't say that. What I alluded to is that if a GM evaluates his total team picture after a Season, and is not comfortable with it going forward, then he has some decisions to make. And some hard ones. We know what decisions Holmgren chose to make.

I didn't say that. What I alluded to is that if a GM evaluates his total team picture after a Season, and is not comfortable with it going forward, then he has some decisions to make. And some hard ones. We know what decisions Holmgren chose to make.
- MJL

yes but one playoff loss isn't the only reason why he made those moves either.

yes but one playoff loss isn't the only reason why he made those moves either.
- JoeRussomanno

Never said that it was.

Let's just say I've heard stories directly from Flyers of the 70s, 80s and 90s that make me glad they didn't have social media and sports gossip sites back then.

A tame example: Bill Flett -- who drank his way off the Flyers after 1973-74 (that took some doing in those days) used to dare people at bars to set his beard on fire. One time, an equally inebriated teammate actually took him up on it.
- bmeltzer

Never mess with Boba Flett