Last thing I want to do is deal jvr and have him follow the knuble career path.

I think that the Preds will demand two top six forwards. I think that removing Voracek is a deal breaker.
- Jsaquella

Thats a tough call. I would look to add P. A. Parenteau and trade away another defenseman and add another forward. Thats the only way to replace Voracek. The Flyers losing JvR is basically trading him for Weber. Thats an exchange I can live with.

And if he doesnt? than what. On most night he is invisible. He doesnt like to hit or play physicall. When he does hes dominant, but too many games in between.
- Philly1980

It's possible that he doesn't. It's also possible that he turns into a 40 goal power forward, which are almost as rare as franchise defensemen.

Take a guy like John LeClair. He had most of the same knocks on him that JvR has now. Inconsistent effort and physicality. Not a great skater. Doesn't use his size to dominate as much as he should. The kicker is, JvR's had a better first three years than LeClair did, and JvR is younger than LeClair was.

If JvR's a 40 goal scorer, and Jake's got 20 G and 60 points, and the Preds get an impact player at 20, how good does trading that for Weber look in two years, if you don;t win a Stanley Cup?

Last thing I want to do is deal jvr and have him follow the knuble career path.
- nails

It's becoming obvious to get a d-man who can help now will have to come via trade, how much they should give up seems to be the question.

This conversation of whether or not to trade for Weber, reminds of that scene in Animal House. An Angel on one shoulder, and a Devil on the other. Saying do it!, don't do it! I really understand both sides of the argument. I get, and also agree with being patient, drafting and developing players. Charting a course and staying with it. Makes sense to me.
I also understand those saying to make the deal for Weber. You'd be getting one of the hardest types of players to obtain. But the price will be high, as it should. Because of how good Weber is.
And I agree that Weber isn't a miracle cure, and doesn't guarantee a Cup. No one player can do that.
But in the end, in my opinion, adding a player like Weber, puts you closer to the Cup. So if it's there, I think you have to make the move.

Thats a tough call. I would look to add P. A. Parenteau and trade away another defenseman and add another forward. Thats the only way to replace Voracek. The Flyers losing JvR is basically trading him for Weber. Thats an exchange I can live with.
- stveshdy

If they can get him, Parenteau is an interesting guy...it seems that he's expecting a significant pay day, though.

I saw you threw that Booumeester question out yesterday. If that cap hit wasn't ungodly Id do it. He is a minutes eater and hasn't missed a game in 4 seasons. Imagine another 23 - 25 min. guy. How much would that help Grossman/Carle. We have some extremely effective defensemen when they don't have to use their rollover minutes.

Any 23 min. D-men without a 6.8 mil cap hit out there? Get on it Homer
- aosplayo

seabrook

good luck convincing the hawks to trade him though

This conversation of whether or not to trade for Weber, reminds of that scene in Animal House. An Angel on one shoulder, and a Devil on the other. Saying do it!, don't do it! I really understand both sides of the argument. I get, and also agree with being patient, drafting and developing players. Charting a course and staying with it. Makes sense to me.
I also understand those saying to make the deal for Weber. You'd be getting one of the hardest types of players to obtain. But the price will be high, as it should. Because of how good Weber is.
And I agree that Weber isn't a miracle cure, and doesn't guarantee a Cup. No one player can do that.
But in the end, in my opinion, adding a player like Weber, puts you closer to the Cup. So if it's there, I think you have to make the move.
- MJL

Ultimately, I would as well...not saying I wouldn't. Just trying to make the point that if they do trade for Weber, beware of what could happen if JvR and Voracek reach their potentials.

And also, what would happen if Simmonds, Hartnell and Talbot don't manage to have similar seasons offensively, and Couturier and Schenn deal with sophmore slumps

Ultimately, I would as well...not saying I wouldn't. Just trying to make the point that if they do trade for Weber, beware of what could happen if JvR and Voracek reach their potentials.

And also, what would happen if Simmonds, Hartnell and Talbot don't manage to have similar seasons offensively, and Couturier and Schenn deal with sophmore slumps
- Jsaquella

Cant get any worse watching Richards and Carter winning while we are waiting for Schenn, JvR, Couturier reaching their potentials. No guarantee we're going to win a cup with these players either. Thats my only argument with adding Weber. Either way the Flyers need to adjust.

Ultimately, I would as well...not saying I wouldn't. Just trying to make the point that if they do trade for Weber, beware of what could happen if JvR and Voracek reach their potentials.

And also, what would happen if Simmonds, Hartnell and Talbot don't manage to have similar seasons offensively, and Couturier and Schenn deal with sophmore slumps
- Jsaquella

It really wouldn't matter to me if JVR and Voracek reach their potential. Even if I could forsee into the future, and know that they will. I'd still make the deal. A Franchise #1 physical all around defenseman, is a infinitely more important player to a team then JVR or Voracek will ever be.

As far as the latter, and players having down years. That's a factor regardless of whether they trade for Weber or not.

And if they do make the deal, the Flyers can make other moves and bring in some other players to add depth to the Forward side.

Cant get any worse watching Richards and Carter winning while we are waiting for Schenn, JvR, Couturier reaching their potentials. No guarantee we're going to win a cup with these players either. Thats my only argument with adding Weber. Either way the Flyers need to adjust.
- stveshdy

It would be worse, because then we'd hear the weekly Patrick Sharp comparisons.

I'm totally fine with the deal, just not getting the reactions that seem to think it's highway robbery for the Flyers.

Ultimately, I would as well...not saying I wouldn't. Just trying to make the point that if they do trade for Weber, beware of what could happen if JvR and Voracek reach their potentials.

And also, what would happen if Simmonds, Hartnell and Talbot don't manage to have similar seasons offensively, and Couturier and Schenn deal with sophmore slumps
- Jsaquella

jvr is a bit of a sissy though with this wonky hip....i mean cmon already lets get him moved out

I think I wait on Weber. If he is available through FA next year, then use kimo's money and cap increase to go after him.
Again, I would rather see them fill jagr's spot and bring in a guy to play the #5 that can fill in in the top 4/pk without stretching him beyond his capabilities.

jvr is a bit of a sissy though with this wonky hip....i mean cmon already lets get him moved out
- Just5

Yeah, he just played on the bad hip until the concussion knocked him out, then played with a foot infection in the playoffs. What a wussy

jvr is a bit of a sissy though with this wonky hip....i mean cmon already lets get him moved out
- Just5

It would be worse, because then we'd hear the weekly Patrick Sharp comparisons.

I'm totally fine with the deal, just not getting the reactions that seem to think it's highway robbery for the Flyers.
- Jsaquella

Agreed. However Sharp was a steal. At least your getting Weber in return who's an elite player.

Agreed. However Sharp was a steal. At least your getting Weber in return who's an elite player.
- stveshdy

True. Which is why I would ultimately agree to make the trade.

True. Which is why I would ultimately agree to make the trade.
- Jsaquella

Im just going to be happy to have a participant in the hardest shot representing the Flyers......I miss Leclair

Doughty sure looked like an Elite defenseman in the Cup Finals to me. And you don't have to be a physical force and have size to be an Elite defenseman. Doughty is a stud and a top defenseman in this League. make no mistake about that. And he certainly didn't play like an immature player. And the fact that he is still young, with as good as he is now. Greatness could be on the horizon. He's already headed in that direction.
- MJL

Sigh...I figured "someone" might quibble with the semantics. For me, if you are going to call a player elite, he's in the top two or three at his position. Crosby, Giroux, Malkin, and probably Stamkos are elite. Weber & Chara are elite. Rinne, Lundqvist, & Quick are elite. Everyone else is something less.

So guys like Doughty are in a tier below elite. At least in my opinion. He's a great player (as I said). I just don't think he's elite yet. He may be one day, but he's not now, at least not the way I think of elite.

Also, if you use the criteria Bill mentioned the other day:

The rarest of commodities in the NHL is the true "franchise defenseman" who embodies six or more characteristics among the following nine traits: regular goal-scoring ability, passing that triggers top-speed breakouts from the defensive zone, outstanding positional defense, size and physicality, high-end mobility skating forward or backward, the hockey sense to known when to pinch and when to stay back, shot blocking, durability and locker room leadership.
- bemeltzer

I don't think he (yet) embodies six of those traits.
goal scoring - yes
passing - yes
outstanding positional defense - no (solid, but not outstanding)
size & physicality - no
high end mobility - yes
hockey sense - yes
shot blocking - no
durability - yes
locker room leadership - no

By my count he has 5. So he's close. He could get there, but like I said I don't think he's there now.

And I'll admit that since I'm not in the Kings room, I really don't know that he isn't a locker room leader. He could be. But I'm basing the "no" on a few things. One is the way he held out of training camp. Another is his behavior during the playoffs, where had to be physically restrained two different times by teammates before he cost his team a misconduct. Lastly, I don't think the Kings need him to be a big locker room leader with the other vets/leaders they already have. That's a lot of conjecture I know, but that's how I see it. I'm sure you'll have a different view, and that's fine. He's a great player - never said otherwise. I just don't think he's on the same level as Chara or Weber (or even the corpse of Lidstrom).

It's possible that he doesn't. It's also possible that he turns into a 40 goal power forward, which are almost as rare as franchise defensemen.

Take a guy like John LeClair. He had most of the same knocks on him that JvR has now. Inconsistent effort and physicality. Not a great skater. Doesn't use his size to dominate as much as he should. The kicker is, JvR's had a better first three years than LeClair did, and JvR is younger than LeClair was.

If JvR's a 40 goal scorer, and Jake's got 20 G and 60 points, and the Preds get an impact player at 20, how good does trading that for Weber look in two years, if you don;t win a Stanley Cup?
- Jsaquella

They'll need picks if they are selected to host the draft which they lobbied the league to do.

http://www.broadstreethoc...s-lobby-nhl-to-host-entry

Dale the Wombat ‏@wombathockey
Everyone loves Weber, but @NHLFlyers also apparently like Ellis and Blum. @PredsNHL likes Brayden Schenn. Paying close attention to this.

Dale the Wombat ‏@wombathockey
Everyone loves Weber, but @NHLFlyers also apparently like Ellis and Blum. @PredsNHL likes Brayden Schenn. Paying close attention to this.
- njhockey27

interesting, questionable source though

They'll need picks if they are selected to host the draft which they lobbied the league to do.

http://www.broadstreethoc...s-lobby-nhl-to-host-entry
- ob18

That'd be embarassing. Host city not picking until the end of day two

he had a safety harness? didn't see the walk.
- nastyflyergirl

Yup. Tune in next week when he plays Russian roulette with water pistols.

Sigh...I figured "someone" might quibble with the semantics. For me, if you are going to call a player elite, he's in the top two or three at his position. Crosby, Giroux, Malkin, and probably Stamkos are elite. Weber & Chara are elite. Rinne, Lundqvist, & Quick are elite. Everyone else is something less.

So guys like Doughty are in a tier below elite. At least in my opinion. He's a great player (as I said). I just don't think he's elite yet. He may be one day, but he's not now, at least not the way I think of elite.

Also, if you use the criteria Bill mentioned the other day:



I don't think he (yet) embodies six of those traits.
goal scoring - yes
passing - yes
outstanding positional defense - no (solid, but not outstanding)
size & physicality - no
high end mobility - yes
hockey sense - yes
shot blocking - no
durability - yes
locker room leadership - no

By my count he has 5. So he's close. He could get there, but like I said I don't think he's there now.

And I'll admit that since I'm not in the Kings room, I really don't know that he isn't a locker room leader. He could be. But I'm basing the "no" on a few things. One is the way he held out of training camp. Another is his behavior during the playoffs, where had to be physically restrained two different times by teammates before he cost his team a misconduct. Lastly, I don't think the Kings need him to be a big locker room leader with the other vets/leaders they already have. That's a lot of conjecture I know, but that's how I see it. I'm sure you'll have a different view, and that's fine. He's a great player - never said otherwise. I just don't think he's on the same level as Chara or Weber (or even the corpse of Lidstrom).
- BringBack25

Lidstrom didn't block a lot of shots either. And while I won't anoint Doughty as the next Lidstrom, he's certainly heading in that direction. And guess what, at 22 years old ,Lidstrom wasn't Lidstrom either, if you get what I mean. I saw a player who at 22 years of age, totally control the game from the back end. Make play after play. And while you may not place him in the caliber of Chara, Weber, or Lidstrom. Those guys aren't 22. They're 27 or older. I saw an Elite player in the playoffs. No doubt about it.

And I think your making way too much of a player showing his heart and competitiveness on the ice. Nothing to do with immaturity or a lack of leadership. And everything to do with a desire to win.

Remember the game when Claude Giroux though they didn't get a call, turned and gestured at the ref, then went up the ice and laid a hit that got him suspended? Was that immaturity and a lack of leadership also?