They know both of these players. Kimmo may be at the
end, but they may be able to get 2 or 3 more years
out of him. Hartnell is in his prime. AND PICKS... Maybe 1st and a 2.
Maybe Read.
- section32

I just don't see Kimmo having any practical trade value for a player like that. Kimmo would be a rental and that's it.

I think, to beat out the other theoretical offers other teams would pitch for Weber, the Flyers way to trump them would be to include Couturier. Does anyone do it?

Sigh.

The Flyers continue to poorly manage the cap and it bit them in the @ss.

They Flyers could have signed Carle during the season, to a friendly cap hit, if they managed the cap properly.

For anyone who wants to pretend that the Walker and Shelley deals haven't had a negative impact on this team, look no further then this Carle fiasco.
- ggunky

I don't know if it was a cap issue. The flyers may have overplayed their interest in re-signing Carle to avoid showing their interest in pursuing a top tier guy like Suter? I think this was a hockey decision they made as opposed to the cap screwing them, though the cap didn't make anything easy on them. Just speculation of course. Let's see what else they do.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Carle, Next steps, Prospect camp
- bmeltzer

Well done, certainty some work to be done. Maybe he has something else working.

I am no cap geek so please be patient.

But if the Flyers don't have the Shelley and Walker contracts doesn't that free up the space for the extra money that would have been needed to sign Carle to, lets say, 4.75 mil deal?
- ggunky

i'm far from a cap geek, JS would know more of this stuff then me. But at the same time, the Flyers tried to go all in...did they get burned...sure but I think for once they were not going to overpay someone.
At this point, time to start filling out the roster. Did I think Carle got pissed off due to waiting on the Flyers? No, I don't think so because once Suter committed and Wiedman committed his salary demands just increased.
Maybe the Flyers had a contract offer to Carle and he said no, I'm going to wait and that was before Wiedman signed and the courting of Suter happened.

Some things we will never know.

Can we get Hartnell and Timmonen to waive
their NMC / NTC to go back to Nashville for
Weber? Add some picks if necessary. And then
Go after Doan hard. While I realize Timmo is getting
long in the tooth, Hartsy had his best year last
year. If we add a pick we would need to get
Weber extended first.
- section32

This is not how trades for superstars work. You HAVE to send back top prospects and picks. Kimmo means jack to them. If they lose Weber they aren't making the playoffs. Not to mention Hartnell only has two years on his deal left and he'll have little reason to want to remain on that team afterwords.

You aren't trading for Weber unless the deal is centered around Schenn or Coots, and really after what Suter just got why in the hell would Weber not decide to test the Market? No need to trade for him and lose one of those forwards. Not to mention a bunch of picks as well.

While it is far from over, I am quite pleased with how the off-season has shaken out so far.
Still plenty of time to blow things up, but I like that they have kept a core intact.

The team already upgraded Carle's slot when they acquired Schenn. What they haven't done is replace Pronger, but they didn't have him last year either. I'm comfortable enough with the defense as it is currently configured, and I am pleased Holmgren didn't add to the team's cap troubles by overpaying Carle, or Parise, or Suter. Whether that is by design, or dumb luck, I'll take it.

They do need another winger with Jagr and JVR gone, and much like last off-season, I would like them to focus on getting another team's top defense prospect. A player who could be worked into the lineup at some point this season, and has legit top 2 potential. Easier said than done, but it would be a priority for me.

If this is Timonen's last year, Gustafsson needs to be up with the Flyers so he can continue learning from Kimmo, who he should be modelling his game after.

While it is far from over, I am quite pleased with how the off-season has shaken out so far.
Still plenty of time to blow things up, but I like that they have kept a core intact.

The team already upgraded Carle's slot when they acquired Schenn. What they haven't done is replace Pronger, but they didn't have him last year either. I'm comfortable enough with the defense as it is currently configured, and I am pleased Holmgren didn't add to the team's cap troubles by overpaying Carle, or Parise, or Suter. Whether that is by design, or dumb luck, I'll take it.

They do need another winger with Jagr and JVR gone, and much like last off-season, I would like them to focus on getting another team's top defense prospect. A player who could be worked into the lineup at some point this season, and has legit top 2 potential. Easier said than done, but it would be a priority for me.
- hobo

people will complain they didn't spend enough money and then they will complain they spent too much money.
At this time, the corre is still intact and they have decent depth with their defense. Need to sign a top forward as you have mentioned.

Bill,

perhaps the Flyers didn't bite on Carle earlier for the simple reason that a lot of others see. He just ain't that good.....He is 3 million a year good....(in the cap world)....he is not 4 million good and certainly not 5 million good....In your listing you have Mez as the 5th D....that guy was their best D 2 years ago....so if he is indeed on a third line pairing thats a pretty solid guy.
I have often said I am not a carle fan....I just think the good outways the bad. I was not a big JVR guy either...not for lack of talent, but more frustrated with his development I guess....although he really is still just a pup....my critisim of him was probably not as warranted. There are holes but lets see what doors this opens up on the trade front....I am against the moving of Schenn ....but see a problem in a couple of years of where Couts is going to play....I don't think ahead of Giroux or Schenn....and all three are better players in the middle.....kinda like Carter, Richards , Briere scenerio.
No Player is non tradeable......when the greatest player of all time can be dealt I learned a long time ago not to get to attached!!!!

You have to think the Flyers have a backup plan or obviously know something we don't. Right?

The Flyers were stuck between a rock and a rock. You can't pay Carle more than Coburn under any circumstance.
- maine_mariner

I think so. I think Homer knows exactly what he's doing.....I hope so

This is not how trades for superstars work. You HAVE to send back top prospects and picks. Kimmo means jack to them. If they lose Weber they aren't making the playoffs. Not to mention Hartnell only has two years on his deal left and he'll have little reason to want to remain on that team afterwords.

You aren't trading for Weber unless the deal is centered around Schenn or Coots, and really after what Suter just got why in the hell would Weber not decide to test the Market? No need to trade for him and lose one of those forwards. Not to mention a bunch of picks as well.
- hereticpride

If I'm a player I am worried about the impact of the new CBA. Who knows what
Salaries will look like after this year. If someone would extend me now
To a top salary range I might take it since there
Will probably be a cut coming. And I might add Cooter as a piece
Of that package for Weber. He is the only D man in the
League capable of replacing Pronger.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Carle, Next steps, Prospect camp
- bmeltzer

glad we didn't overpay, but, yes, there's a hole now.

and man, i COMPLETELY forgot about kubina. too bad he's finished.

pronger also being finished really hurts. kimmo needs to be healthy at the end of the year or we're finished.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Carle, Next steps, Prospect camp
- bmeltzer

glad we didn't overpay, but, yes, there's a hole now.

and man, i COMPLETELY forgot about kubina. too bad he's finished.

pronger also being finished really hurts. kimmo needs to be healthy at the end of the year or we're finished.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Carle, Next steps, Prospect camp
- bmeltzer

The Flyers are one of the only teams that need no fewer than SIX top-4 defensemen on the lineup to feel comfortable... losing Carle just brings that number back down to five, which is far from the end of the world.

Mez, Coburn and Schenn should be able to offset a lot of Carle's offense and puck-moving by committee with elevated minutes. Coburn, especially, has been underutilized offensively for the past few seasons.

If they must still go after somebody in addition to Gervais, Colaiacovo wouldn't be a bad choice. He had outstanding puck-possession metrics while playing alongside of Pietrangelo at even strength against very tough competition. He would also bring a superior shot to the PP as well. Durability would be the area where he would fall short of Carle, though.

i dont care about carle, gutsy can do the same thing he did...everyone is upset about losing carle, but maybe just maybe homer didnt want him back, i feel and beleive if they really wanted him knowing the situation they could have made a deal.

The Flyers are one of the only teams that need no fewer than SIX top-4 defensemen on the lineup to feel competitive... losing Carle just brings that number back down to five, which is far from the end of the world.

Mez, Coburn and Schenn should be able to offset a lot of Carle's offense and puck-moving by committee with elevated minutes. Coburn, especially, has been underutilized offensively for the past few seasons.

If they must still go after somebody in addition to Gervais, Colaiacovo wouldn't be a bad choice. He had outstanding puck-possession metrics while playing alongside of Pietrangelo at even strength against very tough competition. He would also bring a superior shot to the PP as well. Durability would be the area where he would fall short of Carle, though.
- Tomahawk

Completely agree.

Think Rozsival is a decent option. His possession numbers are also pretty good. But, I agree that they don't really need another dman.

Have nothing statistically to support this, but i feel like Coburn gets better the more he plays. Also, Mesz was third amongst all dmen (yes, in the entire NHL) in points per 60 mins at even strength last year. Would be nice if he actually had a decent partner this year so his contributions aren't minimized.

I think their needs at this points are a 4C and top-9 winger.

While it is far from over, I am quite pleased with how the off-season has shaken out so far.
Still plenty of time to blow things up, but I like that they have kept a core intact.

The team already upgraded Carle's slot when they acquired Schenn. What they haven't done is replace Pronger, but they didn't have him last year either. I'm comfortable enough with the defense as it is currently configured, and I am pleased Holmgren didn't add to the team's cap troubles by overpaying Carle, or Parise, or Suter. Whether that is by design, or dumb luck, I'll take it.

They do need another winger with Jagr and JVR gone, and much like last off-season, I would like them to focus on getting another team's top defense prospect. A player who could be worked into the lineup at some point this season, and has legit top 2 potential. Easier said than done, but it would be a priority for me.
- hobo

i could see being in wait and see mode, but to be "quite pleased" about this off season is puzzling to me. and if you think that schenn is an upgrade over carle you must be on bath salts. the mix on d is iffy at best - as bill clearly illustrated - and coming off a playoff defeat where the main problem was getting out of our zone, we certainly took a step back in that regard. it's still early, but homer has staggered a little out of the gate.

i could see being in wait and see mode, but to be "quite pleased" about this off season is puzzling to me. and if you think that schenn is an upgrade over carle you must be on bath salts. the mix on d is iffy at best - as bill clearly illustrated - and coming off a playoff defeat where the main problem was getting out of our zone, we certainly took a step back in that regard. it's still early, but homer has staggered a little out of the gate.
- isaiah520

I disagree with that and I think you're undervaluing Schenn -- I see him as a top 4 D. He might not be as good as Carle now, but will be. I also like that he's right handed.

I'm gonna hear it for this but:

Grossmann - Coburn
Timonen - Schenn
Meszaros - Gus/Gervais

Bill
As always a pleasure to get your insights. I don't think anyone should be overly upset that the Flyers didnt get tied to Parise or Suter with those kinds of (what was rumored) monster contracts. As for Carle, if they really wanted him I think it would have gotten done. IMHO, Carle was the expendable piece.

Getting Gervais will only help in that he can actually play in this league.

IMHO, and I have said this elsewhere, I think the Flyers should stand pat. Let's see how this lineup (as it stands now) plays. LEt's see how this dcorps plays. Don't rush out to make a splash just because you didn't get Suter (who never wanted to come East) or Parise (who really didn't want to stay in the Devils' division).

i dont care about carle, gutsy can do the same thing he did...everyone is upset about losing carle, but maybe just maybe homer didnt want him back, i feel and beleive if they really wanted him knowing the situation they could have made a deal.
- mydoglicks

It's a bit of a stretch at this point to say that Gustafsson can do the same things that Carle did.

For one thing, Carle has about 25 pounds of muscle weight on him over Gus. While he's not a physical player, he doesn't get tossed aside the way Gus has (which is the biggest single thing that has thus far kept Gus on the AHL/NHL shuttle).

For another, there's something to be said for experience. Gustafsson is has only been a pro for two seasons and will turn 24 in December. At 27 (28 in September), Carle has already been through the learning curve and is approaching 475 NHL games vs. the 33 that Gus has played.

That's going to show up on the ice at times. I like Gus. In particular, his performance in Game 6 of the Pittsburgh series was worthy of a legit top 3 NHL defenseman. But can he play at that level on a regular basis? Far from a certainty or something I'd want to go into the season counting on.

It's a bit of a stretch at this point to say that Gustafsson can do the same things that Carle did.

For one thing, Carle has about 25 pounds of muscle weight on him over Gus. While he's not a physical player, he doesn't get tossed aside the way Gus has (which is the biggest single thing that has thus far kept Gus on the AHL/NHL shuttle).

For another, there's something to be said for experience. Gustafsson is has only been a pro for two seasons and will turn 24 in December. At 27 (28 in September), Carle has already been through the learning curve and is approaching 475 NHL games vs. the 33 that Gus has played.

That's going to show up on the ice at times. I like Gus. In particular, his performance in Game 6 of the Pittsburgh series was worthy of a legit top 3 NHL defenseman. But can he play at that level on a regular basis? Far from a certainty or something I'd want to go into the season counting on.
- bmeltzer

I think Gus has the potential to be a top 4 Defensemen. He can be better then Carle -- he's not there yet, but I am very glad the flyers didn't give Carle the contract that Tampa did. Having said that...I still think they need one more solid D-man, not sure how they're gonna get it. although if I had to choose, I'd want a forward first.

Bill Meltzer: Meltzer's Musings: Carle, Next steps, Prospect camp
- bmeltzer

Bill, you're not a fan of a 13-year deal for Ryan Suter with a AAV higher than Zdeno Chara's with the possible anchor of the Collective Bargaining Agreement expiring in two months?

It's a bit of a stretch at this point to say that Gustafsson can do the same things that Carle did.

For one thing, Carle has about 25 pounds of muscle weight on him over Gus. While he's not a physical player, he doesn't get tossed aside the way Gus has (which is the biggest single thing that has thus far kept Gus on the AHL/NHL shuttle).

For another, there's something to be said for experience. Gustafsson is has only been a pro for two seasons and will turn 24 in December. At 27 (28 in September), Carle has already been through the learning curve and is approaching 475 NHL games vs. the 33 that Gus has played.

That's going to show up on the ice at times. I like Gus. In particular, his performance in Game 6 of the Pittsburgh series was worthy of a legit top 3 NHL defenseman. But can he play at that level on a regular basis? Far from a certainty or something I'd want to go into the season counting on.
- bmeltzer

I agree Bill but when do you allow someone like MAB or Gus to take the reigns and try to make it happen instead of signing people to big contracts forcing the younger guys to stay in the minors or to be dealt?
They have to give them a shot to see if they can handle it and by adding depth, it may allow them to cover up the weekness if the plan doesn't work out.

Bill,

here's what I see. the flyers are going to have to face up to their shortsightedness regarding their d. I see them making a trade along the lines of the ones made by COL for Johnson and DAL for gogo. those deals were made in season and prob favored the other clubs...prob because they were made when the need became obvious and the teams seeking the puck mover were at somewhat of a disadvantage. going into the season anticipating what the FAs will be in the future is folly.

I think it makes more sense to make the move now, because it is very tough to acquire that kind of player in an even deal during the season. I would not have settled for Luke schenn as compensation for JVR and I would make b schenn my major trade chip because couts is untouchable in my book. now I wouldn't be surprised if both schenns are shipped out. either way the flyers need a top pairing dman...even if his development is not quite at that level just yet.

i could see being in wait and see mode, but to be "quite pleased" about this off season is puzzling to me. and if you think that schenn is an upgrade over carle you must be on bath salts. the mix on d is iffy at best - as bill clearly illustrated - and coming off a playoff defeat where the main problem was getting out of our zone, we certainly took a step back in that regard. it's still early, but homer has staggered a little out of the gate.
- isaiah520

If I was on bath salts, I'd be eating your face right now. Mmmm...human face...